What's the take on a Catholic marrying a pastor?

[Skip_Wiley]

Wow! Okay, if this gets too off-topic we can email each other. Could you cite me chapter, verse, and logical progression on this one? I can’t imagine where you’re coming up with this.

I know it’s your duty as a Catholic to argue that the Bible doesn’t really say so, regardless of what the Bible says, but 1 Timothy 3:1-7 defines the criteria of a pastor as:

{quote]1. Above Reproach - An accusation of sin won’t stick to him.

1. Husband of One Wife - He must be faithful to his wife. He adores his wife and doesn’t flirt with other women.
2. Self-Control - He is the master of his behavior. His behavior doesn’t control him.
3. Lives Wisely - He makes good choices.
4. Has a Good Reputation - People at church and in the community think highly of him. He is respected.
5. Hospitable - His home is open to others.
6. He Can Teach - He has gifted insight into the scripture and communicates well those insights to others.
7. Not Addicted to Wine - He never gets drunk or over-indulges in alcohol.
8. Not Violent - He resolves conflict peacefully.
9. Gentle - His manner and words are not abrasive …he has a good “bed side manner.”
10. Loves Peace - Is someone who works toward peace in every relationship he encounters.
11. Does Not Love Money - He is not consumed with his retirement fund or the price of gas.
12. Manages His Home Well - His family and home are in order, not in chaos. His children are polite and respectful. His finances are in order.
13. Not a New Christian - He has proven experience as a faithful follower of Jesus.

Now, how can a Christian pastor who shows such poor judgement as to marry a Catholic say that above reproach when he’s committed the sin of being unequally yoked? How can he say that he manages his home well when his wife is following a false religion, one to which she has made a promise to raise their children in that same religion?

Er, which particular teachings? Not all of them are totally incompatible. And in my experience, every single Protestant church I’ve ever attended had some extrabiblical teaching derived from its history or culture.

You’re welcome to pick on the word “requirement,” of course. We could spend all day parsing whatever greek words Paul used for “must” and “should”, but I think it’s pretty obvious this was the expected standard. He wasn’t big on legalistic requirements, but standards weren’t foreign to him.

How can he be expected to teach his church if he can’t even teach his own wife?

Yup. Well, okay, to be really super picky, there are plenty of married Catholic priests. Not all Eastern Rites require priestly celibacy. There’s even a few former married Anglican priests who are now Roman Rite priests.

BUT. Yes, indeed, I think that to be considered for one of those leadership role, a man’s family life should come under consideration as as part of judging his readiness to lead in church. I understand why the Orthodox require celibacy of their bishops and the Roman Rite requires it for (most) priests. For example, family life is indeed a distraction from many kinds of ministry. Solving those problems by mandatory celibacy, however, is like draining a mosquito-infested swamp by using a nuclear bomb. In the short-term, you appear to solve the problem, but you create more problems in the long term. Protestants do a similar thing by mostly requiring a seminary education before a man can become a pastor. Instead of learning to rely on the Holy Spirit in the trenches, he learns to rely on intellect and tradition in the cloister.

Don’t sneer so loudly, young fella. A great many Protestant pastors interact very little with anybody outside of their congregation, and even less with anybody outside of their tradition. I’m not kidding when I call it the christian ghetto. Catholic priests have it worse, as far as outside interactions. Their congregations are bigger on average and there’s a far greater tendency to see them as a sort of ministerial or sacramental vending machine.

Yep, indeed, and still do. Did you think I’m Catholic? I’m not, but I recognize the weaknesses of the Protestant approach. There’s nothing wrong with admitting your tradition’s imperfections.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Thank you. The name calling and constant snide remarks I’ve had to put up with certainly have made me feel welcome.

Welcome back! Don’t take the snide remarks too personally, especially when you’re new and posting as much as you have (my, you have been busy!). I caught a lot of flak when I was new too and referred to the Eastern Rites as “minor Rites”. Whew!

If you’re willing to back off and rephrase things when people answer too hastily, I’ve found this works wonders. Pretend they didn’t make a snide remark but just misunderstood you (pretty often, they have). “A gentle word turns away wrath” and all that.

We’re guests here. Be nice. Be a credit to your tradition.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

I know it’s your duty as a Catholic to argue that the Bible doesn’t really say so,

Whoa, dude. I think 20+ posts per day is making you lose track of who you’re talking to. I’m not Catholic.

And the insult is unwarranted. :tsktsk: Catholics interpret #2 allegorically, but other than that they too want solid character for their leaders.

regardless of what the Bible says, but 1 Timothy 3:1-7 defines the criteria of a pastor as:

{quote]1. Above Reproach - An accusation of sin won’t stick to him.

1. Husband of One Wife - He must be faithful to his wife. He adores his wife and doesn’t flirt with other women.
2. Self-Control - He is the master of his behavior. His behavior doesn’t control him.
3. Lives Wisely - He makes good choices.
4. Has a Good Reputation - People at church and in the community think highly of him. He is respected.
5. Hospitable - His home is open to others.
6. He Can Teach - He has gifted insight into the scripture and communicates well those insights to others.
7. Not Addicted to Wine - He never gets drunk or over-indulges in alcohol.
8. Not Violent - He resolves conflict peacefully.
9. Gentle - His manner and words are not abrasive …he has a good “bed side manner.”
10. Loves Peace - Is someone who works toward peace in every relationship he encounters.
11. Does Not Love Money - He is not consumed with his retirement fund or the price of gas.
12. Manages His Home Well - His family and home are in order, not in chaos. His children are polite and respectful. His finances are in order.
13. Not a New Christian - He has proven experience as a faithful follower of Jesus.

So far, none of these characteristics even indicate that his wife has better morals than a brothel madam. Please try again. Try a little later in the chapter.

Now, how can a Christian pastor who shows such poor judgement as to marry a Catholic say that above reproach when he’s committed the sin of being unequally yoked? How can he say that he manages his home well when his wife is following a false religion, one to which she has made a promise to raise their children in that same religion?

Nope, sorry, you’re going to have to actually quote the Scriptures, chapter and verse. I know exactly which one you refer to, but you have to learn to follow the rules. Citing the chapter and verse you mean means actually citing that chapter and verse, not just one passage out of several and then making handwaving references to the connection you’re making. I will say you’re doing better than most people I’ve argued with, so keep going!

Since I can tell where this is going, I’ll give you a prep hint too: be prepared to answer why you think a Catholic can’t be saved by faith in Christ.

 

[CradleCath]

What’s more, how would the wife submit to her husband as spiritual head of the household when her first allegience is to the pope?

Actually, her first allegience is to God, as is his.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Skip_Wiley;4092991:

What’s more, how would the wife submit to her husband as spiritual head of the household when her first allegience is to the pope?

Actually, her first allegience is to God, as is his.

Skip has a highly caricatured view of both the Vatican-led church and Protestant authority teachings, but he does have a subtly interesting point, one that crosses ecclesial boundaries. At what point do you know that a lower authority has overstepped their bounds and you have to go with the higher authority? And do the conflicts just get too complicated for a mixed marriage to allow both members to be faithful to their traditions?

So, for example, if I was so foolish as to go against my own conscience and demand that my Roman Rite wife allow contraception in our marriage (because most Protestant traditions currently allow it as a choice), she would have to go with the higher authority in her ecclesial tradition and refuse. In the thinking of current leaders in my tradition, I wouldn’t have overstepped my bounds, but in the thinking of hers, I would have overstepped my bounds. Nasty potential conflict there. Fortunately we were both mature enough to think about it in advance.

Since this thread is about the potential difficulties faced by a particular mixed marriage, it’s on-topic to ask: Are there situations in which the difference between the rules of authority structures in the Vatican-led church and the rules of authority structures in other traditions lead inescapably and irresolvably to conflict?

So far I haven’t found any, although I’ve heard there used to be some pretty ugly ones.

 

[thenewmrssears]

My husband’s best friend since birth’s parents are in this situation.

The father is a Lutheran Pastor and actually runs the Church. The mother is a devout Catholic.

She attends Catholic Mass at 7:30 AM and then Luthern service at 10:00 AM.

They’ve been married for 30 years, and are the happiest couple I’ve ever met.

I think it can work. I believe that being Christians and putting God first is what matters.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

The father is a Lutheran Pastor and actually runs the Church. The mother is a devout Catholic.

She attends Catholic Mass at 7:30 AM and then Luthern service at 10:00 AM.

Very interesting! Do you know which synod he’s from? I’m guessing it’s not one of those Lutheran groups that are supposed to thank God every day that they’re not Catholic…

Generally Anglicans get a lot of flak from both Protestants and Catholics for their attempt to walk a middle way, but one thing they do better than anyone else I know of is support mixed marriages (which they call interchurch families). Other traditions seem to view our kind of union as something that has to be acknowledged but certainly not encouraged. And definitely not celebrated. The Anglicans so far do the best at celebrating this sign of potential unity.

Our best wishes on your marriage, newmrssears! May you experience every happiness.

 

[thenewmrssears]

Thank you for the well wishes.

I giggled at your statement about Lutherans, because my husband frequently makes that joke.

I could not tell you the name of the group exactly, but I believe it is pretty streamline. ELA? ELCA? I can never remember exactly.

The same pastor actually did the Homily at our wedding! In an effort to integrate Nathan’s Lutheran faith and life long relationship with this family in particular, the Catholic Church where I grew up invited him to participate in our ceremony. It was quite wonderful.

(We just had the ceremony…not a full Mass.)

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

I could not tell you the name of the group exactly, but I believe it is pretty streamline. ELA? ELCA? I can never remember exactly.

Probably ELCA. I looked for a Lutheran association called “ELA” and only got this page for Lutheran T-shirts. I about had to wipe off my screen when I came across this shirt. “You might be Lutheran if you only serve jell-O in the proper liturgical color for the season.” Oh, dear.

(We just had the ceremony…not a full Mass.)

Same here. It would have seemed awkward for her and her friends to take communion but not me or mine. Not really the best “we’re now united” message. But it was beautiful anyway.

 

[shannyk]

Contrary to Catholic teaching on marriage, I believe compatibility is the main issue. If they love each other and are blessed with compatibility, religion shouldn’t matter. Part of compatibility is mutual acceptance and support. Also, as long as the pastor is accepting of his wife’s Catholicism, their mutual Christianity should serve them well. Conversely, I was once married to a devout Catholic, and, quite unfortunately, our mutual Catholicism couldn’t save our marriage. We were not meant for each other.

King Alfred why not have both? Need it be an either or situation? If I’m to get married again you can bet your sweet elbow it will be to someone Catholic and someone compatible with me, my kids, my crazy life, and someone I enjoy being with and consider my best friend.

Part of being compatible would include sharing our Faith, and morals on the BIG issues in life. I simply can’t do that FULLY with a non Catholic.

There are no guarantees that marrying someone of the same faith makes a happy marriage either. The Church doesn’t give out money back guarantees, because people are far too fickle and flawed. Compatibility SHOULD be one criteria but need not be the only.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

King Alfred why not have both? Need it be an either or situation? If I’m to get married again you can bet your sweet elbow it will be to someone Catholic and someone compatible with me, my kids, my crazy life, and someone I enjoy being with and consider my best friend.

I think part of King Alfred’s point is that compatibility is more important to a lasting marriage than religious tradition, but far more difficult to ascertain. What is your experience? How did you figure out compatibility?

For my wife and me it was a lot of talking before we even got engaged. We were both familiar enough with each others’ traditions to see some of the pitfalls and figure out ways around them first.

Part of being compatible would include sharing our Faith, and morals on the BIG issues in life. I simply can’t do that FULLY with a non Catholic.

So what do you think of the point of the thread? Would it be sinful for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic clergy member?

 

[KingAlfred]

My husband’s best friend since birth’s parents are in this situation.

The father is a Lutheran Pastor and actually runs the Church. The mother is a devout Catholic.

She attends Catholic Mass at 7:30 AM and then Luthern service at 10:00 AM.

They’ve been married for 30 years, and are the happiest couple I’ve ever met.

I think it can work. I believe that being Christians and putting God first is what matters.

One of the best Christians I’ve ever known is Lutheran.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

One of the best Christians I’ve ever known is Lutheran.

You never know where you’ll run into the Christians most worth emulating. One of the strongest, most admiring statements of another Christian I’ve ever heard came a few years ago from an evangelical friend of ours. She talked about a woman she knew who exuded peace and serenity and was the most generous and fervent women she knew. Her denomination? SSPX! On the web, they generally come across as dourly intellectual without much peace or funloving, so it surprised me.

Back in the '40s my family knew a Presbyterian woman who ran an orphanage in Beijing (she wasn’t a formal missionary - there was nobody backing her efforts and she was extremely poor even by Chinese standards). Back then relations between Catholics and evangelicals tended toward tension, to say the least, but she got along great with local Catholic nuns. Her testimony of their welcome and kindness toward her helped my family take a higher view of Catholics than was common at the time among evangelicals.

So it’s true, you never know when you’ll run into angels or saints in unexpected guise.

 

[Skip_Wiley]

Nope, sorry, you’re going to have to actually quote the Scriptures, chapter and verse. I know exactly which one you refer to, but you have to learn to follow the rules. Citing the chapter and verse you mean means actually citing that chapter and verse, not just one passage out of several and then making handwaving references to the connection you’re making. I will say you’re doing better than most people I’ve argued with, so keep going!

I did cite chapter and verse but, true to your Catholic brainwashing, you ignored them because a non-Catholic cited them.

Since I can tell where this is going, I’ll give you a prep hint too: be prepared to answer why you think a Catholic can’t be saved by faith in Christ.

This is a common Catholic tactic: “You never said _______ but now I’m going to demand that you defend it, anyway”.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Crazy Diamond;4106219:

Skip_Wiley;4105829:

I know it’s your duty as a Catholic to argue that the Bible doesn’t really say so, regardless of what the Bible says, but 1 Timothy 3:1-7 defines the criteria of a pastor as:

1. Above Reproach - An accusation of sin won’t stick to him.

[snip by Crazy Diamond]

1. Manages His Home Well - His family and home are in order, not in chaos. His children are polite and respectful. His finances are in order.

[snip by Crazy Diamond]

Now, how can a Christian pastor who shows such poor judgement as to marry a Catholic say that above reproach when he’s committed the sin of being unequally yoked? How can he say that he manages his home well when his wife is following a false religion, one to which she has made a promise to raise their children in that same religion?

Nope, sorry, you’re going to have to actually quote the Scriptures, chapter and verse. I know exactly which one you refer to, but you have to learn to follow the rules. Citing the chapter and verse you mean means actually citing that chapter and verse, not just one passage out of several and then making handwaving references to the connection you’re making. I will say you’re doing better than most people I’ve argued with, so keep going!

I did cite chapter and verse but, true to your Catholic brainwashing, you ignored them because a non-Catholic cited them.

:banghead: SIGH. Let me spell this out for you, I-M N-O-T C-A-T-H-O-L-I-C. I never went to a day of parochial school, I’ve never been to a single catechism class, I’ve never “converted”, I’m not in RCIA, I have no intention of ever becoming Roman Catholic. I’m thoroughly Protestant. I’ve studied and memorized Scripture all my life and debated its meaning and application ever since I was baptized at age 15, by full immersion thankyouverymuch. Calling me Catholic is as ridiculous as me calling you Catholic.

So,back to the disagreement. You cited 1 Tim 3:1-7, which was a good start. You still needed to actually cite 2 Corinthians 6:14, which is the “unequally yoked” passage. I had hoped you’d read it and realize that it does not specifically talk about marriage but has to do with all relationships of working toward common goals. As such, it is a more far-reaching a command than merely “don’t marry a pagan.” It requires a very different approach to working relationships in general, not just marriage.

Since you do cite it, you also imply that every Catholic is the equivalent of the Belial-worshipping pagans Paul talked about in that passage. To be sure, there are Catholics who worship idols, depend on their own righteousness for salvation, deny the Holy Spirit, and many other spiritually deadly practices. Just as there are Protestants who do the same, and Orthodox, and Copts, and whoever. I worshipped an idol once myself, though I fooled myself into thinking of it in much more positive terms.

In the same way, there are Catholics and Protestants and every other tradition who trust Christ fully for their salvation and are filled and marked by the Holy Spirit. Your implication that a Catholic cannot be a believer and remain Catholic is simply false.

I have plenty of criticisms of the structure, claims, and required beliefs of the Vatican-led church. I have plenty of criticisms of the structure, claims, and required beliefs of the Protestant churches I’ve attended all my life. Both traditions have plenty of ways of destroying faith and chasing believers away. But both also contain the seeds of the gospel and do their best to scatter those seeds abroad. The Holy Spirit doesn’t condemn us for our foolishness, but uses whatever we give him.

If I required my spouse to have only exactly correct beliefs, I’d almost surely never find one. And if she required the same, undoubtedly she’d find good reasons to reject me.

As to the promise to raise the kids Catholic, that’s an old version that has changed. If that had been the promise required of me, it would have been a deal-breaker. (At least for getting what Catholics call a canonical marriage, meaning the Catholic church recognizes it and the ceremony is in a Catholic church building.) Instead, the promise was that in so far as she was able, she would raise the children in the knowledge of the Catholic faith. That wasn’t a problem because I expect all my children to have thorough knowldege of all the major Christian traditions: Assyrian Church of the East, Coptic, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Pentecostal. I have every confidence they’ll see the weaknesses and strengths of each and make the right choice.

Crazy Diamond;4106219:

Since I can tell where this is going, I’ll give you a prep hint too: be prepared to answer why you think a Catholic can’t be saved by faith in Christ.

This is a common Catholic tactic: “You never said _______ but now I’m going to demand that you defend it, anyway”.

You certainly implied that a Catholic cannot be a believer. Again, I say, that is simply false. Give me any criticism you like of Roman Catholic beliefs and practices, and I’ll show you a similar error Protestants make.

 

[mdgspencer]

I know a Catholic who married a liberal Presbytrian minister. Perhaps someone else would not be reduced to her position. She ended saying that there is no difference between churches and went to her husband’s church instead, not surprisingly. I was going to be a Protestant minister 40 years ago before I became a Catholic, and I know what a minister’s wife is supposed to do. She is supposed to be a leader in her husband’s church, and this previously Catholic woman that I know ran groups in her husband’s Presbyterian Church. In fact she probably will live in a house next to the Protestant Church and always be involved in its life. My wife with surprise once saw her crossing herself during a prayer in a mainly Catholic group, which was surprising because she otherwise seemed to have lost all identity as a Catholic, which in her case was a word that had become a joke. I doubt that she used it of herself when she was at home or in her husband’s church.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

I know a Catholic who married a liberal Presbytrian minister. Perhaps someone else would not be reduced to her position. She ended saying that there is no difference between churches and went to her husband’s church instead, not surprisingly. I was going to be a Protestant minister 40 years ago before I became a Catholic, and I know what a minister’s wife is supposed to do. She is supposed to be a leader in her husband’s church, and this previously Catholic woman that I know ran groups in her husband’s Presbyterian Church. In fact she probably will live in a house next to the Protestant Church and always be involved in its life. My wife with surprise once saw her crossing herself during a prayer in a mainly Catholic group, which was surprising because she otherwise seemed to have lost all identity as a Catholic, which in her case was a word that had become a joke. I doubt that she used it of herself when she was at home or in her husband’s church.

As I said before,

Unfortunately, it does seem that the vast majority of mixed marriages have at least one person who doesn’t care much about the specifics of their tradition. It very reasonably prejudices fervent people against the rest of us.

On the other hand, don’t think of her story as an ending! I know plenty of people who left the tradition they grew up in for a time and came back. Not so much, I think, because they realized where the true church was found, but that a genuine discipleship need had been met and they could now return as a more mature believer. The Catholic tradition works well for some discipleship needs and the Protestant tradition works well for others. So your friend isn’t necessarily done with Catholicism forever.

I’m curious why you say the word Catholic in her life had become a joke. It sounds to me like she felt she found a universality beyond what she was taught growing up. Although perhaps being in a liberal Protestant tradition she had come to see all churches as equally worthless rather than equally worthwhile.