What's Up With The ND Theology Department?

[Ltcatholic]

Check out this post from an (alledged I’ll admit) grad student:

This was what I had feared most. As I finish my doctorate in Roman Catholic theology and prepare to find a professorship, I worry very much that Ratzinger’s papacy will create a reactionary climate that may threaten academic freedom at Catholic universities, and render the Church increasingly inhospitable for faithful, but progressive voices within the Church.
Anonymous, Notre Dame, IN

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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/default.stm

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ltcatholic:

Check out this post from an (alledged I’ll admit) grad student:

This was what I had feared most. As I finish my doctorate in Roman Catholic theology and prepare to find a professorship, I worry very much that Ratzinger’s papacy will create a reactionary climate that may threaten academic freedom at Catholic universities, and render the Church increasingly inhospitable for faithful, but progressive voices within the Church.
Anonymous, Notre Dame, IN

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/default.stm

My heart bleeds for the puir laddy.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Let’s pray that he learns to accept the teaching of the Church, and not rely on his own giant-sized ego so much.

 

[Lisa_N]

Ltcatholic:

Check out this post from an (alledged I’ll admit) grad student:

This was what I had feared most. As I finish my doctorate in Roman Catholic theology and prepare to find a professorship, I worry very much that Ratzinger’s papacy will create a reactionary climate that may threaten academic freedom at Catholic universities, and render the Church increasingly inhospitable for faithful, but progressive voices within the Church.
Anonymous, Notre Dame, IN

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/default.stm

Depends on whether the voices are faithful to the truth or the cult of self gratification. I suspect the latter.

Frankly from what I’ve heard about Notre Dame (Vagina Monologues, Queer Day etc) they could use a little LESS freedom. I assume most parents think they are paying all the $$$ for a CATHOLIC education. THey could get a secular state school for a fraction of the cost.

Lisa N

 

[ansel123]

vern humphrey:

My heart bleeds for the puir laddy.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Let’s pray that he learns to accept the teaching of the Church, and not rely on his own giant-sized ego so much.

I’m not really sure what you think the problem is with this quote. He said that he hoped FAITHFUL, but progressive theologians would still be welcomed in Catholic schools of higher learning. I don’t see why you would need to pray that he accepts the teachings of the Church since he already purports to follow them. And I don’t know why you think he has a “giant-sized” ego either. He was just expressing concern our new Holy Father and academic freedom. I personally don’t think ringing the alarm bell is justified, but he is free to express his own opinion.

The word “progressive” doesn’t necessarily mean pro-abortion, wanting to priests to marry, or desiring the ordination of women. In a specialized field like theology, there are literally thousands of subjects and hundreds of thousands of little nitpicky points that academics love to quibble over and write about. The vast majority of these points have nothing to do with the core infallible truths of the Church.

My point is that you can’t jump to conclusions about someone based on so little information.

 

[Lisa_N]

ansel123:

I’m not really sure what you think the problem is with this quote. He said that he hoped FAITHFUL, but progressive theologians would still be welcomed in Catholic schools of higher learning. I don’t see why you would need to pray that he accepts the teachings of the Church since he already purports to follow them. And I don’t know why you think he has a “giant-sized” ego either. He was just expressing concern our new Holy Father and academic freedom. I personally don’t think ringing the alarm bell is justified, but he is free to express his own opinion.

The word “progressive” doesn’t necessarily mean pro-abortion, wanting to priests to marry, or desiring the ordination of women. In a specialized field like theology, there are literally thousands of subjects and hundreds of thousands of little nitpicky points that academics love to quibble over and write about. The vast majority of these points have nothing to do with the core infallible truths of the Church.

My point is that you can’t jump to conclusions about someone based on so little information.

Ansel in all fairness I don’t know that ‘progressive’ and Catholic belong in the same sentence given the current understanding of the word. It DOES stand for a very liberal social agenda including homosexual rights, abortion, euthanasia, etc. I have yet to hear from a politician who calls himself ‘progressive’ and who does NOT support those issues. Further all of the talk about making the Church more ‘progressive’ relates to married priests, female priests and embracing homosexuality as a normal lifestyle.

Can you quote a self defined progressive Catholic who is totally orthodox? I really don’t think this student is worried about quibbles over how many angels dance on a pinhead. I think he/she is pushing a very liberal agenda.

Lisa N

 

[ansel123]

Lisa N:

Ansel in all fairness I don’t know that ‘progressive’ and Catholic belong in the same sentence given the current understanding of the word. It DOES stand for a very liberal social agenda including homosexual rights, abortion, euthanasia, etc. I have yet to hear from a politician who calls himself ‘progressive’ and who does NOT support those issues. Further all of the talk about making the Church more ‘progressive’ relates to married priests, female priests and embracing homosexuality as a normal lifestyle.

Can you quote a self defined progressive Catholic who is totally orthodox? I really don’t think this student is worried about quibbles over how many angels dance on a pinhead. I think he/she is pushing a very liberal agenda.

Lisa N

I was arguing that we should not jump to conclusions and criticize someone on the basis of so little information. Since when are we so suspicious of our brothers and sisters in the Church? If he says he is faithful, I don’t have any reason to question him given the information presented to me. You say he is “pushing a very liberal agenda.” On what basis do you draw this conclusion?

There is no agreed upon understanding of the word “progressive.” Politicans don’t get to decide what words mean - they are engaged in public relations and spinning, not lexiconography. Plenty of politicans call themselves “pro-life”, but don’t oppose the death penalty or euthanasia. Popular uses of a word can be deceiving and don’t necessarily embody what a word actually means.

“Progressive” can mean many different things. President Roosevelt is considered progressive because of his social programs that helped the poor and working people. Vatican II can be labeled progressive because of its departures from previous liturgial practices that expanding the participation of the people in the Mass, etc… Catholic Charities can be considered progressive because of the work is does to bring about social justice.

And is there one understanding of the label “orthodox”? Can you disagree with some of the Church’s teachings that are not considered non-negotiable or infalliable and still be orthodox? For example, some people in the Church don’t oppose the death penalty, even though the catechism and encyclicals say that it should be rare and its necessity is practially non-existant? Are they orthodox? (BTW, I am against the death penalty).

What you might think is the popular definition might not apply in the scholarly world. Its a discipline of subtlety, nuance, and complex study.

 

[Fitz]

Lisa N:

Frankly from what I’ve heard about Notre Dame (Vagina Monologues, Queer Day etc) they could use a little LESS freedom. I assume most parents think they are paying all the $$$ for a CATHOLIC education. THey could get a secular state school for a fraction of the cost.
Lisa N

It is a very good school, but I dare say a bit over rated, but don’t tell my nephews or brother in law that I said that. The cost is very high, but it is next to impossible to get in unless your dad or mom went there. I know of a few, that didn’t have the connection. The legacies also have to have very high scores. I actually find the hangers on sort of sickening. However, we are a Purdue family so I should mention my bias. If yuo aren’t midwest, then I will tell you that Purdue, which is an Indiana State University, is such a rival to Notre Dame when it comes to football, you can’t even imagine.

I think that yes there are many CINO’s at the Dome. However I went to church there on Divine Mercy Sunday and it was one of the best Masses, and totally faithful to the church.

 

[wabrams]

As far as anyone knows, he could have meant progressive in terms of ideas like Vatican II, not left wing agenda’s. You can’t read too much into a couple of sentences on an editorial page (unless it is direct and to the point). As far as the comment about him/her having a “giant sized ego,” I believe saying that without fully understanding the spirit in which the letter was written shows YOUR giant sized ego.

 

[pear]

I agree with LisaN – whenever anyone in America uses the word “Progressive” he or she means politically to the left. And the tone of this anonymous person’s e-mail has the hallmark traces of outrage and smugness I’ve come to know (but not love) from the American left.

Man, they’ll let anyone into theology departments these days!

 

[ansel123]

pear:

I agree with LisaN – whenever anyone in America uses the word “Progressive” he or she means politically to the left. And the tone of this anonymous person’s e-mail has the hallmark traces of outrage and smugness I’ve come to know (but not love) from the American left.

Man, they’ll let anyone into theology departments these days!

"Only when the human spirit is allowed to invent and create, only when individuals are given a personal stake in deciding economic policies and benefiting from their success – only then can societies remain economically alive, dynamic, progressive, and free.

    **Ronald Reagan** -September 29,       1981

So you consider Ronald Reagan politically to the left? You did say when anyone in America uses the word progressive…

 

[pear]

"Only when the human spirit is allowed to invent and create, only when individuals are given a personal stake in deciding economic policies and benefiting from their success – only then can societies remain economically alive, dynamic, progressive, and free.

Ronald Reagan -September 29, 1981

So you consider Ronald Reagan politically to the left? You did say when anyone in America uses the word progressive…

Oh, come on, you’ve got to do better than that! I’ve been dealing with you lefties for years! What I always wonder is, why do people on the left always try to deny who they are? Here’s a random sampling of Progressive web sites, and yes, they are all either way way left or aligned with the Democratic Party:

progressive.org/

igc.org/

prorev.com/ (includes a scathing anti-Ratzinger story)

ppionline.org/ (official organ of the Democratic Leadership Institute)

progressivemajority.org/ (dedicated to electing Democratic candidates)

tcpc.org/ (The Center for “Progressive” Christianity – all the loosey-goosey language any lefty could ever want!)

bernie.house.gov/pc/ (Congressional Progressive Caucus)

I’m sorry, you were saying about Ronald Reagan?

 

[pear]

Oh, and I missed one:

plp.org/ – It’s the Progressive Labor Party web site (yep, they’re actual Communists) and they include a new commentary titled “No Tears For Pope Who Blessed Death Squads”.

So I feel quite comfortable saying that when someone calls themselves “Progressive,” they’re a lefty.

 

[legeorge]

Come now, people, we all know exactly what is meant by self proclaimed “progressives” these days. And if this young fellow is so orthodox, why would he be “concerned” about Ratzinger’s Papacy?

 

[ansel123]

pear:

Oh, come on, you’ve got to do better than that! I’ve been dealing with you lefties for years! What I always wonder is, why do people on the left always try to deny who they are?

I would appreciate it if you did not label me as a leftie, since I am not a leftie. You know nothing about my beliefs.

My participation here has been to defend someone from attacks based on paltry evidence. I also wanted to point out that “progressive” doesn’t have to mean abortionist or Marxist.

I note the websites you listed. Your examples still don’t deny or repudiate the fact that Reagan and other political conservatives use the word “progressive” in a different way than you mean it. For that matter, Judge Richard Posner of the Federal Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit is a proponent of classical liberalism. Classical liberalism has nothing to do with the Democratic Party or lefties, or 60s radicals.

My point is that labels can be dangerous. I believe fully in the teachings of the Church and I don’t let secular politicans on either side tell me what words mean. Progressive means literally to move forward, to make progress. There is a proud tradition of progressives that have been working to bring Faith and Justice to this World, who believe in Hope and in the idea that through Charity and Love, we can work towards attaining part of the mission Christ set out for us - to take care of the least among us. There is a also proud progressive tradition in our Church stemming from Vatican II and continuing this day.

So I ask you to stop labeling all progressives as anti-Church or leftie and to stop surrendering our language to secular, manipulative politicians.

 

[ansel123]

Just to play along with your website game, here are a few:

progressive.com - is this insurance company anti-Church? Or is it just trying to help advance society’s response to risk-prone activities.

ccstl.org/statements/ - Catholic Charities in St. Louis is fighting for “progressive welfare policies for Missouri that assist people in reaching their full capacity.” Are they anti-Church or leftie?

And I would point out that that ppionline.org is actually the homepage of the centrist Democrats. I think some of them actually reject the culture of death. So that isn’t a good example of your use of the word progressive.

Edit: here is one more: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/messages/peace/documents/hf_p-vi_mes_19731208_vii-world-day-for-peace_en.html

Pope Paul VI uses the word “progressive” to talk about the nature of peace.

 

[jjwilkman]

we seem to have a lexicological problem here! His name is Holy Father, eminence, Pope Benedict, etc. to call him ratzinger is extremely disrespectful. hasn’t anybody noticed???

did anybody call Pope John Paul II by his last name. not that I have noticed. of course polish names are somewhat difficult to
pronounce.

joke…how can there be a language with no vowels??? ha ha. private internal personal thought

 

[legeorge]

jjwilkman:

we seem to have a lexicological problem here! His name is Holy Father, eminence, Pope Benedict, etc. to call him ratzinger is extremely disrespectful. hasn’t anybody noticed???

did anybody call Pope John Paul II by his last name. not that I have noticed. of course polish names are somewhat difficult to
pronounce.

It was our “orthodox” friend in the original quote who referred to “Ratzinger’s papacy”. Don’t blame us for quoting him. I would personally always call him by the proper title. Or B16 for short.
But we are not supposed to jump to any conclusions about this quote despite the realities:

1. That “progressive” as used in the year 2005 and in reference to the Catholic Church, by an American, would be rather easy to interpret by anyone who has a television or read a newspaper in the last few months.
2. That the person seems to be worried about B16’s effect on “academic freedom” (hmm, wasn’t it Cardinal Ratzinger who’s job it was to expel heretical professors from so-called Catholic universities? )
3. And, as you have pointed out, the quotee’s reference to our new pontiff in disrespectful terms.

If I were to sum it up, I would probably not draw a line to “orthodox”.

 

[msproule]

Ltcatholic:

Check out this post from an (alledged I’ll admit) grad student:

This was what I had feared most. As I finish my doctorate in Roman Catholic theology and prepare to find a professorship, I worry very much that Ratzinger’s papacy will create a reactionary climate that may threaten academic freedom at Catholic universities, and render the Church increasingly inhospitable for faithful, but progressive voices within the Church.
Anonymous, Notre Dame, IN

I personally think the anonymous author was none other than the head of the ND theology department, Father Richard McBrien, posing as a grad student.

 

[fix]

Ltcatholic:

Check out this post from an (alledged I’ll admit) grad student:

This was what I had feared most. As I finish my doctorate in Roman Catholic theology and prepare to find a professorship, I worry very much that Ratzinger’s papacy will create a reactionary climate that may threaten academic freedom at Catholic universities, and render the Church increasingly inhospitable for faithful, but progressive voices within the Church.
Anonymous, Notre Dame, IN

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/default.stm

Reactionary? Progressive? Ratzinger instead of Pope? Academic freedom? The entire quote is filled with a tone of heterodoxy. The legalistic liberals love to parse things. They claim to be orthodox in public, but step right up to the line and try to step over it and then decry anyone who calls it for what it is.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Notre Dame does not teach Creation Theology, but they do have a seminar on creative theology, taught by Fr. McBrien.