I have a hard time understanding this idea too. It appears that maybe the Church has done immoral things in the past and that it has also contradicted itself. I am not trying to attack Catholic doctrine, I am trying to understand it.
Examples:
- The crusades were immoral, but were supported by the church.
- For quite awhile it was ok for clergy to marry. Now it is considered immoral. Something like that isn’t just moral one day and then not the next.
Let’s take one at a time. I can do many immoral things, but never teach something immoral. That’s often the case with parents. The case is the same with the Church. The popes and the bishops when united can never teach anything immoral. They can be culpable of doing immoral things, but that’s not what comes out of their mouths.
The Crusades were not immoral. Revisionist history has made them out to be immoral. The Muslims had invades Spain. In fact, they remained there for 800 years. They had taken down the Church of Constantinople and replaced it with Islam. They had invaded Palestine and taken over the Holy Land, killing Jews and Christians alike. They had invaded Western Africa, which had always been Christian. It was Augustine’s homeland. Is still in Muslim hands to this day. They were coming at Europe from the East, West and South. The Crusades were an attempt to stop their progress. The defense of one’s borders is not immoral. Like any war, there are going to be individuals who do immoral things. That part we cannot blame on the Church.
It has never been OK for the clergy to marry in either the East or the West. Whoever taught you that, did so incorrectly. The practice was that married men could be ordained. That practice is still in effect in 22 out of the 23 Catholic Churches in union with the papacy. You have to be married first. If you are ordained, before you’re married, you may not get married. Bishops may never be married. They must be celibate. Married men can only be secular priests. They can never be consecrated religious. Consecrated religious have always been celibate. They can be widowers, but not married or divorced.
In the Roman Church the practice of ordaining married men was phased out, because all 23 Catholic Church believe that celibacy is the highest of all vocations. The Council of Trent declared that anyone who questions this is to be anathema. Even the Eastern Catholics, who allow married men to become priests, believe that celibacy is the higher of the two vocations. They place great honor of those who are celibate.
In the Roman Church we have reinstated married clergy by allowing married men to become deacons. We do allow married clergy that convert to Catholicism to be ordained Catholic priests, but never bishops.
The sin is the violation of Church law. No one has the right to violate the Church’s law. This takes us back to Christ’s words to Peter. “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and what you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Peter has the right to make laws and man has a moral duty to obey them under penalty of sin.
There are moral absolutes that are revealed to us by God. Those cannot be changed. There are disciplines created by the Church. Those can be changed by the authority of the papacy. While the law is in force, we have a moral obligation to comply. The more serious the issue, the more serious the sin if we don’t comply. Contraception falls under one of the moral absolutes revealed by God. It cannot be changed by any pope.
I thought the Catholic Church believed in free will. Does church believe that the holy spirit controls the Pope and bishops, or does the church believe that they have free will.
Free will means that individuals are free to choose to do right or wrong. It does not apply to what God reveals. Since God speaks through the Church, the Church cannot speak contrary to the will of God. Whatever the Church teaches as God’s will is truly His word, not that of man. The Holy Spirit controls what the pope teaches or when the bishops speak as one voice, it controls what they teach. He does not control what they do. They can never teach that murder is a moral good, but that does not mean that they can never commit a murder. Some have done so.
The pope can never teach that it is morally permissible to deny Christ, but Peter did so three times. Yet, Peter never taught falsehood. However, he was unjust to the Gentiles, which drew him into a discussion with Paul. But if you read the Counsel of Jerusalem very carefully, Paul argues in favor of the Gentiles and protests that Peter is treating the Gentiles unfairly, but he never threatens to walk, nor does he ever speak to Peter by his given name. He always addresses him by the title that Christ gave him. He calls him Cephas (Rock). He acknowledges Peter’s supreme authority by acknowledging that only Peter is the Rock of the Church. From the beginning, we have a separation between what the pope can do and what he can teach. He can do many wrong things. He can never teach a single error in matters of faith or morals. Don’t count on the pope not making mistakes in matters of math or science. Infallibility does not cover that. If the pope tells you who is going to win the World Series, don’t count on it.
It was contraception, but that was not why he was condemned.
Who said so? That is the Church’s interpretation of that passage and no one has the right or authority to interpret scripture except the Church. Paul makes this very clear. The scriptures are not for private interpretation. Clement of Rome, the second pope, in his letter to the Ephesians, repeats the same doctrine. Only the Church’s interpretation scripture is valid, no one else’s. You can I cannot interpret scripture authoritatively. We can read it for personal inspiration. But when it comes to drawing doctrinal or moral conclusions from the bible, we have to submit to those conclusions that the Church approves and no other. We don’t have that kind of authority.
What if you do believe that Popes and bishops are generally instruments of God, but that they are not infallible?
Then you have excommunicated yourself from the Catholic Church and you may not receive Holy Communion until you come back into full communion with the Church. The rule is that only those who believe everything that the Church teaches can receive the Eucharist. When an adult enters the Catholic Church he is asked, “Do you believe everything that the Church teaches?” He must answer “Yes,” to be received.
Infallibility is a dogma required of all Catholics, Roman and Eastern Catholics. That’s why the Orthodox are not Catholic. They don’t believe infallibility. Though they seem to be coming around.
I will remind you again because you do not seem to understand that these are not arguments, but questions to help better understand Catholic doctrine. I hope you or someone else can answer these questions.
As someone else said, state them as questions, not as statements. Otherwise, you’re going to come off as contradicting yourself. Your ID says that you’re Catholic and your statement is contrary to Catholic faith. That’s only get to get you blasted.
Example: I don’t believe that contraception is a sin.
That’s not a question. That’s a statement of fact, coming from someone who has labeled himself as Catholic. That’s going to trigger a knee-jerk reaction. It would be like a Muslim or a Jew saying, “I don’t believe that circumcision is necessary.”
Example: Is contraception a sin? or Why is contraception a sin?
That is a question. It’s going to trigger a more sympathetic response. Any well informed Catholic is going to leap at the chance to help you understand…
I hope this helps. I’m out of here. I have to run.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
