Whats wrong with female altar girls?

[Brendan]

, depending on how you do it, it could be considered a form of civil disobedience since you are doing it as a form of protest.

How can a matter of preference be a matter of protest?

What percentage of boys that were alter servers actually moved on a became priests??
Sure, someone said that when they were alterservers everyone wanted to be the priest. How many of them actually became a priest? Show me the stats. Don’t just say it—prove it.

In our parish, about one out of every three senior altar servers goes into the seminary. We generally have 1 or 2 enter each year.

And it’s spelled altar. This isn’t said to be mean, it’s just a pet peeve.

 

[Brendan]

Netmil(name removed by moderator) it’s good to hear you have a healthy Catholic identity at your parish. But if the following statement is your reason for preferring males-only altar service, it’s not a very strong, or convincing one.

How?

Having 3 daughters (in addition to my altar serving son) I would have to give a lot of that to Fr. Val

He’s a 90 year old senior priest in residence. He does the 6:00am Mass everyday (no days off) and spends about 2 hours each day listening to confessions.

In addition, I haven’t been to a Mass at our parish yet where Fr. Val hasn’t come out to help distribute Communion.

After Mass, while the altarboys are cleaning up, storing their swing torches and otherwise devesting, Fr. Val is out with the kids(very small children and the girls) of the parish, talking with them pating their heads and giving and recieving uncountable hugs.

He is a marvel in how he can interact with so many, it’s he feeds off of their young energy and they feed off of his deep spirituality in practice.

In addition, there is a choir made up of mostly teen girls. They They lead the congregation in the sung responses ( Gloria, Sanctus, Credo - in Latin, of course. In addition, their rendition of Shubert’s Ave Maria is angelic, and I have told them on several occasions.

 

[netmilsmom]

Netmil(name removed by moderator) it’s good to hear you have a healthy Catholic identity at your parish. But if the following statement is your reason for preferring males-only altar service, it’s not a very strong, or convincing one.

                                                                  Originally Posted by **netmil(name removed by moderator)**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1704913#post1704913)                 
             *Girls get all the nurturing and shining opportunities.  They are constantly puffed up and told how special they are.*

How?

First, I have to ask, are you in the States?
If you are, look around. Men are made out to be dolts who can’t think their way out of a paper bag without their wives or teenagers helping them out.
Boys are feminized and thrown on Ritalin when they behave like boys.

Could you see an eight-year-old boy wearing a “Girls Stink” shirt?
canadiancrc.com/articles/Edmonton_Journal_Boys_stink_06FEB04.htm

Do a quick Google search on “Empowerment Girls” and you will get a plethora of hits. Do the same for “Empowerment Boys” and what do you get?

And in the meantime the ONLY places where boys are given an “empowerment” role, Altar Boys and Boys Scouts are under attack. Either by women who think that by making them something special, it is a personal affront to their female peers or homosexual men that are threatened by the thought of a strong heterosexual male having an influence in a boy’s life.

I need strong boys to grow to strong men to marry my daughters. Not the stepped on, crushed and drugged boys that we see today. It’s funny, but in our parish of strong Catholic Men, we have some “busy” boys. They are all kind and loving but run, jump and act like boys.

Maybe because our Pastor allows them to be special while showing them a great example of a manly Priest who can still beam with delight while lighting fireworks for Corpus Christi.

 

[netmilsmom]

In addition, there is a choir made up of mostly teen girls. They They lead the congregation in the sung responses ( Gloria, Sanctus, Credo - in Latin, of course. In addition, their rendition of Shubert’s Ave Maria is angelic, and I have told them on several occasions.

That is the teen choir, don’t forget the girl’s choir that my girls are in (ours includes girls unitl 11 yrs old). We sing the fourth Sunday of the month at the 9:30.

They don’t sound as pretty but they try harder! The lady who runs it, takes girls as young as four (even if they can’t read) My little one started at four and would learn the songs in three weeks. No wonder she sings the Latin better than any of us!

 

[djrakowski]

My little one started at four and would learn the songs in three weeks. No wonder she sings the Latin better than any of us!

Maybe I should bring to her men’s choir with me. I may need some help with that Latin

 

[CRW]

In someways, this is what the Pro-Altar Girl people are missing. Having an older girl guide a young boy is like their mom doing it.
Having an young man guiding is like a big brother.

I just don’t get it.

If just all the altar boys showed up for a mass, it would fill the main. We must be doing something right.

According to USCCB norms - nothing is wrong. According to individual personal feelings, you may receive many reactions; positive and negative. Church rubrics are one of the top irritants for many Catholic’s. As you can see from the treads on this forum, we are no longer a “Universal” Church. When you ask a question, be prepared to sort through all the answers before reaching a conclusion to your question.

 

[Cristiano]

According to USCCB norms - nothing is wrong. According to individual personal feelings, you may receive many reactions; positive and negative. Church rubrics are one of the top irritants for many Catholic’s.

I think that this is your way to let us know that we care and that we have opinions too

As you can see from the treads on this forum, we are no longer a “Universal” Church. When you ask a question, be prepared to sort through all the answers before reaching a conclusion to your question.

I disagree with you on the “Universality” thing. We have always been this way. God created us in His image but not like Him, or identical to each other. He gave us intelligence, but not a perfect one. I think I understand what He revealed to us, but I do not know His whole plan. I just know that He wants us to use our faith and reason at our very best, for the rest the Holy Spirit will help us.

 

[ChemicalBean]

First, I have to ask, are you in the States?

Yep. I’m from the midwest. I like my beef corn-fed.

Boys are feminized and thrown on Ritalin when they behave like boys.

I guess I have to ask what it is to “behave like boys”. Is it inattentive, smart-aleck, unfocused, disruptive, and aggressive? Is it right for any child to behave that way, or should boys be able to get away with that because “boys will be boys”. Nonsense.

Could you see an eight-year-old boy wearing a “Girls Stink” shirt? canadiancrc.com/articles/Edmonton_Journal_Boys_stink_06FEB04.htm

Although at face value it’s funny (a former roommate had these posters), I agree that it sends the wrong message. And along with the same line of thinking, a boys-only altar servers club tends to send the same type of message about girls. How many people on this forum have said in similar threads that ‘boys won’t serve when the girls do because it’s not exclusive and boys that age think girls have cooties and that’s okay and healthy and to be encouraged’??

Why should any gender be ‘empowered’ or made to feel special, to the detriment of the other? Particularly in church!

You mentioned Boy Scouts. That’s great. If boys need an exclusive, disciplined boys club, than promote it. I would agree that boys need healthy role models and sense of community. On the flip side, there are Girl Scouts, designed to promote a healthy self-image for girls. We need good role models and activities for all children. In as much as you fear that boys are being taught to be ‘sissies’ by men-hating women, I fear that boys are being taught to be lusty, macho, toughened, and emotionally retarded by feminist-hating women and/or single mothers worried about the absence of a father-figure. And to compensate for these two extremes, a girl is raised to be a super-woman who has to do everything because her man can’t (and then she realizes that she doesn’t have superpowers and she battles depression), or else she have to lower her standards of excellence and purity and hate her body to win over a man who doesn’t deserve her (and maybe again she battles depression, dependency, or an eating disorder.)

But please, altar serving is not about empowerment or feeling special or father-figures or any of that. It’s first about serving God, the priest, and the assembly at the Mass. Every lay Catholic who senses a call to serve Mass in this way should be allowed the opportunity. Rome does not prohibit it. Let the children come to Jesus. And I do hope that your oldest daughter gets to serve Mass at some point like I did. I served for the Archbishop at a Chrism Mass once, and it really opened my eyes.

 

[CRW]

I think that this is your way to let us know that we care and that we have opinions too

I disagree with you on the “Universality” thing. We have always been this way. God created us in His image but not like Him, or identical to each other. He gave us intelligence, but not a perfect one. I think I understand what He revealed to us, but I do not know His whole plan. I just know that He wants us to use our faith and reason at our very best, for the rest the Holy Spirit will help us.

I was referring to the fact that most Catholic Churches maintained the same rubrics, prayers, etc. Now you can attend a Catholic Mass and have to check to see if they take up a collection to determine if it’s Catholic or not.

 

[Cristiano]

I was referring to the fact that most Catholic Churches maintained the same rubrics, prayers, etc. Now you can attend a Catholic Mass and have to check to see if they take up a collection to determine if it’s Catholic or not.

Point well taken. I felt that way in the past.

 

[netmilsmom]

I guess I have to ask what it is to “behave like boys”. Is it inattentive, smart-aleck, unfocused, disruptive, and aggressive? Is it right for any child to behave that way, or should boys be able to get away with that because “boys will be boys”. Nonsense.

Is that really how you see boys? How sad for you. To be honest with you, dealing with PS girls on a regular basis, you are describing them. I really wonder how many children you are with for a while or are you looking back from a girl’s POV?

Although at face value it’s funny (a former roommate had these posters), I agree that it sends the wrong message.

This line says the most about you. There is NOTHING funny about these shirts and posters. If it said, “Girls stink” or “Blacks stink” or “Jews Stink” could you honestly state that there is anything funny about them? Really? Surface or not?

And along with the same line of thinking, a boys-only altar servers club tends to send the same type of message about girls. How many people on this forum have said in similar threads that ‘boys won’t serve when the girls do because it’s not exclusive and boys that age think girls have cooties and that’s okay and healthy and to be encouraged’??

Yes, boys not wanting to take a gender neutral role is very healthy. Read up on some child development, it’s perfectly normal for a boy to want to be male and do male things. (no matter what the feminists want) What is even more healthy about it is that they grow out of it. Something the feminists never do.

Why should any gender be ‘empowered’ or made to feel special, to the detriment of the other? Particularly in church!

Why should it be a detriment at all? Why is it that having men in some roles and women in some roles is so threatening?

You mentioned Boy Scouts. That’s great. If boys need an exclusive, disciplined boys club, than promote it. I would agree that boys need healthy role models and sense of community. On the flip side, there are Girl Scouts, designed to promote a healthy self-image for girls. We need good role models and activities for all children. In as much as you fear that boys are being taught to be ‘sissies’ by men-hating women, I fear that boys are being taught to be lusty, macho, toughened, and emotionally retarded by feminist-hating women and/or single mothers worried about the absence of a father-figure. And to compensate for these two extremes, a girl is raised to be a super-woman who has to do everything because her man can’t (and then she realizes that she doesn’t have superpowers and she battles depression), or else she have to lower her standards of excellence and purity and hate her body to win over a man who doesn’t deserve her (and maybe again she battles depression, dependency, or an eating disorder.)

You’re truly spouting the feminist’s lines. Either that or your personalizing what I am talking about. I’m sorry it’s been so tough for you.

But please, altar serving is not about empowerment or feeling special or father-figures or any of that. It’s first about serving God, the priest, and the assembly at the Mass. Every lay Catholic who senses a call to serve Mass in this way should be allowed the opportunity. Rome does not prohibit it. Let the children come to Jesus. And I do hope that your oldest daughter gets to serve Mass at some point like I did. I served for the Archbishop at a Chrism Mass once, and it really opened my eyes.

My oldest daughter is learning a very valuable lesson in her place.
What stop with what Rome prohibits? After all Rome prohibited female Altar servers until the abuse was approved.
I’m sure these ladies feel the same way…
romancatholicwomenpriests.org/

 

[LeahInancsi]

I’m desperately hoping that the presence of altar girls will discourage any wayward priests from preying on children.

Many here have argue that boys are not serving as altar boys in the large numbers as in the past due to girls being allowed be altar servers. The cuddie factor. I think it’s quite the opposite. Parents may be reluctant to allow their sons to serve for fear of their safety. The presence of girls should put some of those fears to rest.

You may say that the chance of sexual abuse by priests is not a factor because it is so small. That’s what I thought until sexual abuse by a priest was revealed in my parish recently. You never know. Better safe than sorry.

 

[maryjk]

I guess I have to ask what it is to “behave like boys”. ** Is it inattentive, smart-aleck, unfocused, disruptive, and aggressive**? Is it right for any child to behave that way, or should boys be able to get away with that because “boys will be boys”. Nonsense.exclusive and boys that age think girls have cooties and that’s okay and healthy and to be encouraged’??

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Okay, Mary, cool down. Calm down. Okay, now you can post.

To behave like boys:
Open doors for women and children.
Offer your seat to women.
Carry packages for anyone.
Be helpful. Be kind.
And serve at the altar of our Lord.

Our parish has female altar servers as well as boys. I would love to see a female server that doesn’t play with her hair, wave to her friends AND make faces at the server. Been here for three years and haven’t seen it yet.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I don’t know, but I think its a plea for the past, nostalgic urges at work. A little short sighted.

The Magesterium has o.k.'ed the altar service of girls, and I think they realize that this work might help at least some of the girls discern a calling to serve as adult women as readers or Eucharistic Ministers of Holy Communion.

Does one really have a calling to non-existent positions like those? That’s like saying I have a calling to babysit for my buddy whenever he’s at work and his wife is bed-ridden from illness.

(NB: Before anyone deplores the comparison of distributing the Blessed Sacrament with babysitting, the parallel is supposed to be the highly infrequent occurence that should characterize the need for extraordinary ministers of any sort.)

 

[Brendan]

. Every lay Catholic who senses a call to serve Mass in this way should be allowed the opportunity.

That is actually wrong. The Vatican has said that no one has a right to serve at Mass, one’s ‘feelings’ on the matter have no bearing on a call.

Rome does not prohibit it. Let the children come to Jesus. And I do hope that your oldest daughter gets to serve Mass at some point like I did. I served for the Archbishop at a Chrism Mass once, and it really opened my eyes.

Nor is Rome enthused about it either. Neither John Paul or Pope Benedict use altar girls in the Vatican.

The Vatican Altar Boy Cadre is a boarding school for mostly Italian boys, though a group of Maltese come in during the summer when the Italians are back home. A few other nationalites round it out and provide servers for when the Mass is not being said in Italian.

But they are always boys.

If altar girls are such a good idea, why doesn’t the Pope use them. Do you think that the Pope doesn’t care about the spiritual welfare of the girls in Rome?

Perhaps he is not concerned with fostering vocations to the convents of Rome? Is the Pope setting a bad example?

What would it somehow be a bad idea for ALL priests to follow the lead of the Pope in this matter?

Would there be other liturgical practices that priests should not look to the Pope’s example on?

Kielbasi:

I don’t know, but I think its a plea for the past, nostalgic urges at work. A little short sighted.

So is the Pope himself being shortsighted on this matter?

 

[netmilsmom]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Okay, Mary, cool down. Calm down. Okay, now you can post.

To behave like boys:
Open doors for women and children.
Offer your seat to women.
Carry packages for anyone.
Be helpful. Be kind.
And serve at the altar of our Lord.

Amen sister!!!

As I said, if someone made the same type cliche statement about another segment of society, the way it was about boys in that post, would it fly? I think not.
A true man is the one who treats others with kind respect. Especially, in this age of fatherless homes, boys need strong men to show them this.

 

[ChemicalBean]

Amen sister!!!

As I said, if someone made the same type cliche statement about another segment of society, the way it was about boys in that post, would it fly? I think not.
A true man is the one who treats others with kind respect. Especially, in this age of fatherless homes, boys need strong men to show them this.

:banghead: WOW, I see my comments regarding children that need Ritalin have been blown WAY way out of context. This is not “really how I see boys, how sad for me.” But to put this to rest, Netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
netmil(name removed by moderator):

Boys are feminized and thrown on Ritalin when they behave like boys.

to which I asked

ChemicalBean:

I guess I have to ask what it is to “behave like boys”. Is it inattentive, smart-aleck, unfocused, disruptive, and aggressive?

It has been my experience that people who are prescribed Ritalin could be described consistently with one or more of these adjectives to the point that they cannot function well in school, or at work, or in the general public. But as a child, I was in many situations where another male child was not given his Ritalin meds before he was dropped off at daycare or CCD and the parent’s attitude toward the boy’s behavior there was “Well, boys will be boys. Learn to get over it.” This kind of behavior is unacceptable, boy or girl.
netmil(name removed by moderator):

ChemicalBean:

Although at face value it’s funny (a former roommate had these posters), I agree that it sends the wrong message.

This line says the most about you. There is NOTHING funny about these shirts and posters. If it said “Girls stink” or “Blacks stink” or “Jews Stink” could you honestly state that there is anything funny about them? Really? Surface or not?

Yeah, this line probably says two things about me: I can appreciate superficial humor for what it’s worth (not a whole lot), and more importantly, I can recognize that I don’t subscribe to the message and I don’t believe others should either. It’s kind of like a good blonde joke - just because I may find it humorous doesn’t mean that I truly don’t respect people with blonde hair. I would equate this “boys stink” thing to messages like the “He-Man Woman Haters Club” in the grand wholesome movie “Little Rascals”, back in the days when boys were little gentlemen and girls were little ladies and gosh darnit we had family values… It’s cute, it’s humorous, but that kind of thinking is damaging.

You know, netmil(name removed by moderator), I’d really like to respond to everything else you wrote. I have been earnestly trying to step inside your point of view in posting. But I think I’d end up rehashing the same old thing and I think that you really wouldn’t read it without coloring my words with the suspicion that I have some sort of corrupt feminist agenda behind everything I say. Maybe that says the most about you. Perhaps you yourself should do some reading up - about feminism. It cannot be painted with broad brushstrokes, and neither can I.

 

[netmilsmom]

:banghead: WOW, I see my comments regarding children that need Ritalin have been blown WAY way out of context.

Only boys act like this when they are off their meds, that is what you suggest. (and you missed the feminized part)

But as a child, I was in many situations where another male child was not given his Ritalin meds before he was dropped off at daycare or CCD and the parent’s attitude toward the boy’s behavior there was “Well, boys will be boys. Learn to get over it.” This kind of behavior is unacceptable, boy or girl.

If one continues to write, the actual perspective comes out. I’m sorry that you had a bad experience with the boys your age. Truly, but if you as an adult woman continue to have contact with boys, your will see them in a different light. The pity of your experience is that the blame seems to be equally thrown on the parents and the child. It’s not. The situations you describe are plain bad parenting. Not the boys themselves, lack of guidance and discipline.

Yeah, this line probably says two things about me: I can appreciate superficial humor for what it’s worth (not a whole lot)

I cannot ascribe the word “humor” to the “Boys Stink” shirts. Crass, childish, uncaring, but not humor at all. I’m sure that someone finds it funny but that’s the problem. Because they’re about boys, they made it to the market at all. Attempt to market a “Girls stink” shirt and it would be a disaster. Do you see the point? Boys are fair game. Dads are fair game. Men in general are fair game, and seeing any humor in it just normalizes the point.
And who is guiding our girls? Women who have the same attitude, Girls Inc (former CampFire Girls) who promote abortion on their website (that’s what the whole American Girls boycott was about) or Girl Scouts who take encourage taking Cadettes to “Women’s Health Clinics” to earn a badge. It’s scary out there CB. A little “humor” plants a seed.

But I think I’d end up rehashing the same old thing and I think that you really wouldn’t read it without coloring my words with the suspicion that I have some sort of corrupt feminist agenda behind everything I say. Maybe that says the most about you. Perhaps you yourself should do some reading up - about feminism. It cannot be painted with broad brushstrokes, and neither can I.

But don’t you see that it’s not the “feminist agenda” tainting your POV, but the normalization of belittling males. If you want to call that the “feminist agenda” you may, but it’s not that I see you in the light of a militant feminist, just that it has become so normal in our society to think less of males. That is the point I’m trying to make.

I did my time in College promoting “Women’s issues”. I was pro-choice, cracked the jokes about stupid men, and took classes in “Women in American History” We were stepped on, second class and every man was so selfish that he never really gave us a second thought, other than bedding us. Then Our Lord helped me understand that He had a place for every woman. And it was not where He placed men in every time.

Let’s look again what Maryjk said,

To behave like boys:
Open doors for women and children.
Offer your seat to women.
Carry packages for anyone.
Be helpful. Be kind.
And serve at the altar of our Lord.

 

[netmilsmom]

I have to tell a story here about our parish today.
In case anyone hasn’t noticed, it’s the first Sunday of Advent. This is not Christmas or Easter.

We had about 100 Altar men and boys today. Yes, you read that right, about 100. I tried to count them but only got the first row standing closest to the Altar before they moved to take their seats. I had to estimate by counting the boys in the first pew and multiplying by the number of pews they filled.

At the end of the Holy Mass, as they were moving to process out, one small boy who was carrying a glass candlestick, tripped. The candle smashed onto the ceramic tile. The poor little boy, who was around 6, stood in horror at the sight. One of the young men, seeing the boy frozen, came and put an arm around him and leaned down to whisper as he comforted him. He lead the child back to a seat. The boy silently sobbed as the young man enveloped him. (and the young man was not related to this boy, I know the family)
Father blessed Advent wreaths as another young man cleaned up the “technical difficulty” at the front of the church.

We were in the front row. We could see all of this. Not a smirk, nor a giggle out of our servers. As the boy walked to his place for the final blessing, every server he passed patted him on the shoulder. Two moved to the side so the boy could have a front spot. He may have walked out still silently sobbing, but he had the sympathy of everyone of the boys/men he served with.

Okay now somebody tell me again that to “behave like boys” is inattentive, smart-aleck, unfocused, disruptive, and aggressive.

 

[jmcrae]

Boys are feminized and thrown on Ritalin when they behave like boys.

This was your original comment, to which others were responding.

Okay now somebody tell me again that to “behave like boys” is inattentive, smart-aleck, unfocused, disruptive, and aggressive.

You were the one who stated that we put people on Ritalin who behave “like boys.”

Just by way of illustration, here is are two training videos from a project I did a while back for teachers and school administrators, showing them what kind of behaviour is exhibited by children who might have ADD or ADHD, the conditions for which Ritalin is often prescribed. (The behaviour shown in the videos is what most people associate with someone who needs Ritalin.)

Billy’s behaviour in class.

Billy’s behaviour in the principal’s office, and then back in class again.

These videos are both quite short - about two minutes each. After seeing the videos, you may have a better understanding of why people were assuming that “to behave like a boy” according to your definition, is to be disruptive, inattentive, and aggressive.

Someone who:

Open doors for women and children.
Offer your seat to women.
Carry packages for anyone.
Be helpful. Be kind.
And serve at the altar of our Lord.

• would be a “girly-girl,” according to Billy. I think after seeing the videos, you would agree that none of the above activities would likely be on Billy’s list of things to do.