Whats wrong with female altar girls?

[prv]

Five pages of this thread, and someone finally got it!

I didn’t see this thread before, or rather, I didn’t care to comment on it (I’ve been absent from the forums for the last 2 weeks).

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Who helped (rather involuntarily) Jesus shoulder his cross?
Oh, yeah, it was a man. Simon.

Who (rather heroically) busted through the crowds and past the guards to wipe Jesus’ unrecognizable face? Oh, yeah, it was a woman. Veronica.

Yes, in light of our tradtion, males and females have complementary roles as servers in the liturgy.

You’re conflating two distinct things: 1) the traditional account of the Via Crucis and 2) the Church’s liturgical tradition.

The final statement in what I quoted from your post is patently false. In light of our tradition, females have no role as servers in the liturgy. The prohibition of females at the altar is monolithic for 1900 years, and the Eastern churches still do not allow it. The presence of a woman at Christ’s passion has no necessary translation into the Church’s liturgical practice, and that translation has not occurred until quite recently at the hands of certain innovators.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Can you give any reasons why a priest should not use the Holy Father himself as a example for all liturgical practices.

And if not, what specific liturgical practices should a priest NOT follow the Pope’s lead.

In the interests of fairness, I would not imitate the Holy Father’s use of readers in lieu of instituted lectors or clerics. That’s an area in which the Holy See has fallen into the near universal modern situation that the exception has become the rule.

I also do not find the Babel of the general intercessions at papal liturgies very helpful, in which not only is every intention in a different language but there is a parade of readers with a new individual for each prayer.

That said, I do think Rome’s non-use of girl altar servers is telling, considering that the diocese takes advantage of most every other option available in the new rite (e.g. Pope Benedict makes use of the more obscure Eucharistic prayers in his public liturgies, ecclesial movements abound, etc.).

 

[ChemicalBean]

And what is this ‘non-Roman’ culture you are talking about. We are Roman Catholic, not only under the Holy See as Universal Pontif, but also as Patriarch of the Latin Church. In that sense, we have universal customs and practices.

Brendan, you asked a series of badgering questions about “If altar girls are such a gosh darn good idea, why doesn’t the pope use them, huh, huh? And shouldn’t all priests take the pope’s lead in all liturgical practices?” To which I patiently said possibly, not necessarily, and offered possible reasons why. The world, and especially the universal church, is not black and white.

I did not know that the Vatican has a ready-made supply of altar servers in various languages. I did not know that they were all male. I have never been to Rome. I do know that there are various seminaries in Rome, and that it’s quite possible that those seminarians could be asked to serve at Papal Masses since they have likely received the ministries of lector and acolyte, which would make their service more proper to the liturgy. It is also common enough to designate a deacon as “master of ceremonies” who in a sense becomes the chief altar server because he directs all others who are serving in some active role in the sanctuary. I should not need to remind you that “deacon” comes from the word “helper”

As for this non-roman culture that I would talk about, look about you. It would be safe to say that the Latin-rite Church in China is different than the Latin-rite Church in India, than the Latin-rite Church in Uganda, than the Latin-rite Church in Bolivia, than the Latin-rite Church in the US. The Latin-rite part is what makes the church Universal. But universal does not = identical. Those churches, serving the needs of people in those various cultures, will have different kinds of liturgical art, music, and gesture. They will have different expectations for the role of liturgy in their life, and their degree and kind of participation in it.

I’m of half-Irish ancestry and have frequently attended masses in parishes that claim Irish heritage. I had the chance to go to Ireland this summer and I was very surprised at the differences between the various masses I attended there, let alone their collective differences to Masses in the US.

Comrade claims that “we have no legitimate cultural differences from Rome” and that we are “mainly european.”
From what I’ve heard from friends who have studied in rome, we have a LOT of legitimate cultural differences. One very important one was the way that we conduct business with people and care (or forget) about time. If something like this is so pervasive in our cultural thinking, it’s going to show up in our liturgy. Saying that in the US we are mainly european is a huge insult to our sisters and brothers of Latin American heritage as well as historically Black Catholic communities, who would naturally include elements of their cultural treasury in their worship of God.

So what does this have to do with female altar servers?
1.) It’s part of our US liturgical culture of the Pauline Mass.
2.) It’s okay to be not identical to Rome and still be one with the Universal Church.
3.) The Vatican has given it’s permission.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

It is also common enough to designate a deacon as “master of ceremonies” who in a sense becomes the chief altar server because he directs all others who are serving in some active role in the sanctuary. I should not need to remind you that “deacon” comes from the word “helper”

Point of order: if a deacon is serving as a master of ceremonies then he is not serving as the deacon of the Mass. The two are distinct liturgical roles.

I suppose it might be possible to basically exercise both roles in one Mass (overlooking the improper vestiture this would create), but that doesn’t mean they are the same thing.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Comrade claims that “we have no legitimate cultural differences from Rome” and that we are “mainly european.”

You left out a big part:

that would justify such innovations.

Namely, there is nothing in the whole Universal Church (East, West, America, India, China, whatever) that would justify girl altar boys. No legitimate and venerable tradition supports the practice.

From what I’ve heard from friends who have studied in rome, we have a LOT of legitimate cultural differences. One very important one was the way that we conduct business with people and care (or forget) about time. If something like this is so pervasive in our cultural thinking, it’s going to show up in our liturgy.

How is “the way that we conduct business” and “care (or forget) about time” should or does influence the Mass?

Saying that in the US we are mainly european is a huge insult to our sisters and brothers of Latin American heritage as well as historically Black Catholic communities, who would naturally include elements of their cultural treasury in their worship of God.

How? Its the truth and in no way meant as an insult to the minority of people in the country that are both Catholic and of another race. Furthermore, my example is valid for the point I was making.

There is a BIG difference between an Irish parish having a special devotion to St. Patrick, an African (now, this depends on if they’ve been in the country for generations or just came over from Africa) parish might have a devotion to St. Augustine or St. Monica or one of the more recent African martyrs etc. and girls serving at the altar (which is the topic at hand) or even “inculturation” falsly so-called that wishes to add all sorts of stuff that might be OK in Africa proper but wholly improper in your average American parish. Those cultural innovations that are honestly legitimate in their appropriate place do not automatically become a “norm” for the whole world.

Furthermore, cultural innovations that are OK’d are still not anywhere near the same league as the Eastern Liturgical Rites, which are Rites in the fullest sense of the word with full rights proper to their equal rank to the Roman Rite.

 

[SnorterLuster]

Saying that in the US we are mainly european is a huge insult to our sisters and brothers of Latin American heritage as well as historically Black Catholic communities, who would naturally include elements of their cultural treasury in their worship of God.

Just curious, as far as Latin America goes, just what continent do you think Spain and Portugal are located on? I would guess they are just a European as the French, Italians or even maybe the Irish.

 

[Formosus]

As for this non-roman culture that I would talk about, look about you. It would be safe to say that the Latin-rite Church in China is different than the Latin-rite Church in India, than the Latin-rite Church in Uganda, than the Latin-rite Church in Bolivia, than the Latin-rite Church in the US. The Latin-rite part is what makes the church Universal. But universal does not = identical. Those churches, serving the needs of people in those various cultures, will have different kinds of liturgical art, music, and gesture. They will have different expectations for the role of liturgy in their life, and their degree and kind of participation in it.

…

So what does this have to do with female altar servers?
1.) It’s part of our US liturgical culture of the Pauline Mass.
2.) It’s okay to be not identical to Rome and still be one with the Universal Church.
3.) The Vatican has given it’s permission.

So what about eastern rite Catholics in the USA compared to Eastern rites in their homelands? They are different culturally but they do not feel the need to have “female altar boys” nor do they feel the need to follow odd ideas like African culture Masses(which btw, true Catholic African Culture is Coptic or Abyssinian) and in all technicality the Catholic culture of this nation is based off of a Western European identity. Even Black Catholics and Asian Catholics (in the Roman rite) are of European because Roman Catholicism is based in Rome. We may have slight differences but the differences are not so great that they get elevated to levels as you are putting them and the fact remains that for the first 30+ years of the NOM , Female Altar Boys were not part of the liturgical custom becuause THEY WERE A LITURGICAL ABUSE.

 

[Brendan]

I’m of half-Irish ancestry and have frequently attended masses in parishes that claim Irish heritage. I had the chance to go to Ireland this summer and I was very surprised at the differences between the various masses I attended there, let alone their collective differences to Masses in the US.

That’s pretty interesting, because both my parents are from Ireland and I spend a good portion of my life living there.

Their Masses were pretty much the same as at home, unless you were in one of the major cities, particularly Cork, then there were abuses galore.

So which one was the “Irish culture”

I also used to travel for business and have been to Masses in Ireland, Germany, England, France, Monaco Korea, and Amsterdam

They all seemed to have the same ‘culture’, except for some noted forbidden practices in France (a nun gave the homily)

Korea was especially interesting, a beautiful Gothic catheral in Seoul. The Mass was Gregorian Chant and the altarboys were in cassocks and surplices. How’s that for ‘liturgical cultural differences’ ? Is Korea culturally closer to Rome than the US is?

Saying that in the US we are mainly european is a huge insult to our sisters and brothers of Latin American heritage as well as historically Black Catholic communities, who would naturally include elements of their cultural treasury in their worship of God.

That’s pretty interesting, because I’ve heard directly from Cardinal Arinze what African liturgies are like, after all he was a bishop in Nigeria. We are also very good friends with a priest from Cameroon. I think you would be very surprised at the lack of liturgical differences between Cameroon and Rome as well.

So what does this have to do with female altar servers1.) It’s part of our US liturgical culture of the Pauline Mass.

The US culture? Since when? A 14 years ago practice defines what a ‘culture’ is?

2.) It’s okay to be not identical to Rome and still be one with the Universal Church.

We didn’t say that a lack of similarity with Rome means seperation, but your premise that ‘it’s okay to be not identical to Rome’ is still unproven.

3.) The Vatican has given it’s permission.

Which still doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea. Or if it is a good idea, it doesn’t prove that it’s a better idea than what the Pope practices

 

[hosemonkey]

Firstly, “What’s wrong with female altar girls” is nonsensical. Would the opposite be “Male altar girls?” The use of female altar servers grew out of the U.S. bishop’s disobedience and was a liturgical stick-up. John Paul II issued specific prohibitions against it and was universally ignored. A previous poster was correct when he stated that boys do not want to serve and see it as a “girls thing.” Back in the day (my day) Altar servers were looked up to and admired, because being an Altar Boy was not easy. I hope that the Church in Her wisdom gets rid of female altar servers and of the platoons of middle-aged ladies hovering around the sanctuary. Let’s get some MEN up there. The Hosemonkey said that!

 

[ChemicalBean]

Hey hey, Brendan! We both must have some Irish blood. We both seem to like to argue even after our points seem to have been exhausted!

Their Masses were pretty much the same as at home, unless you were in one of the major cities, particularly Cork, then there were abuses galore.

Well, in the couple of weeks that I was in Ireland in the summer, I got to attend 3 Masses, and the flavor of all 3 were different from each other, yet they had similarities that still varied from my parishes at home.

One was in Achill; it was celebrated in Gaelic. Huge difference in language (I understood none of it, but I was handed a translation) and so packed I had to stand in the door and nearly bodysurf in and out to get to Communion. It was a short liturgy, over in about 35 minutes, and the congregation wasn’t expected to sing. But boy, it emptied fast after Communion (but before mass was “over”).

One was in Castlebar. Slightly different English translation, enough to trip me up. I figured these words render a slightly different meaning in the Anglo-Irish usage of English and are more appropriately used in the NW archipelago than in the US. The church was packed but not bursting, and again emptied during communion. An unusual Memorial Acclamation was used, and again no congregational singing was expected. Gesture was different, and again I can only assume that this is because their imagination of how gestures are appropriate to parts of the liturgy are different from ours. Every time there was a ‘Let us pray’ people knelt (we stand here), they from the beginning of the offertory until communion (we have norms to sit, stand, kneel, and stand), but after communion those who actually stayed sat (we tend to kneel). Communion was not an orderly robotic assembly line as is often here, but it was more of a random, respectful free-form received in the hand and standing.

I also attended mass in the Dublin city centre, and it was almost identical to Castlebar except that there was hardly anyone in attendance. This too says something about how the big-city culture has crept into (or out of!) the mass.

Brendan:

So which one was the “Irish culture”

That’s the idea exactly. Not even in the same country of small landmass and similar genes and historical culture will you find two identical masses. How could you possibly expect the whole world, then, to do exactly as the Pope does?

The US culture? Since when? A 14 years ago practice defines what a ‘culture’ is?

Well, in the grand scheme of time, the Pauline Mass is barely a ‘toddler’. It’s been around, what, 37 years? So 14 years is about 40% of that, a sizeable chunk of time already to become established in the US liturgical culture of the new mass.

We didn’t say that a lack of similarity with Rome means seperation, but your premise that ‘it’s okay to be not identical to Rome’ is still unproven.

Which still doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea. Or if it is a good idea, it doesn’t prove that it’s a better idea than what the Pope practices

We’ve demonstrated that there are valid Catholic masses that are in communion with, but not identical to, Rome. I have to prove nothing.

Really, the onus is on you and those who don’t like female altar servers to prove that they are “wrong.” So far as I can tell, none of the points brought up on this thread do that. They’ve pointed to a lack of priestly vocations, or giving boys an ego boost, or reversing little-t traditions, but never have they proved the use of girls wrong.

 

[ChemicalBean]

Namely, there is nothing in the whole Universal Church (East, West, America, India, China, whatever) that would justify girl altar boys. No legitimate and venerable tradition supports the practice.

Nor can they! In the same way that it’s impossible to have male altar girls, it’s impossible to have girl altar boys.

Syntax aside, I am not a theologian and I do not know what constitutes a tradition legitimate or venerable, nor what is necessary to justify a practice other than the teaching authority of the Church. Much earlier in this thread I proposed that it is not incompatible with the gospels for girls to serve at the altar, recalling that our tradition holds that the Eucharist is a re-presentation of the salvific sacrifice. But I never called it proof. However, Pope JPII, with the teaching authority investied in his office, did allow females to serve at the altar in 1994, with the provision that the local ordinary has the say to allow or disallow the discipline in his diocese. Not only can the discipline supported, but it is designated as a discipline to suit the liturgical particularities of the local churches.

How is “the way that we conduct business” and “care (or forget) about time” should or does influence the Mass?

I know this is a stereotype, but it seems to me that german-influenced areas tend to be task and punctually oriented. For example, if it is custom that mass lasts an hour and begins at 9:00, it will begin at 9:00, not 9:02, or 9:05, or later, and the homily will be timed so as for mass to end at 10:00. All i’s are dotted, all t’s are crossed, and everyone does the same thing in unison. And business meetings are conducted by starting right on time, frowning on those who come late for whatever reason, and attending to the matter of the day first, saving any pleasantries or socialization for after the meeting is adjourned. In other cultures, this is not so. Relationships with people are a very important part of a business deal and so this comes first. “My preciously scheduled time” is not an issue - in fact, to come early to a meeting might be considered an insult because it puts pressure on the host. Certainly these aspects of one’s culture can have an impact on the Mass. How do we come to know God, who lives outside of time, if not through an intimate prayer life and relationships with other people?

 

[Brendan]

Really, the onus is on you and those who don’t like female altar servers to prove that they are “wrong.” So far as I can tell, none of the points brought up on this thread do that. They’ve pointed to a lack of priestly vocations, or giving boys an ego boost, or reversing little-t traditions, but never have they proved the use of girls wrong.

No, you’ve been misunderstanding what we have been saying.

We are saying that altar girls are not a good idea. And I have yet to hear any reasoning from you on why they should be used, other than Rome has allowed it.

The only thing I have heard is stuff about 'complementary roles". “Complemtary” does not mean identical. You want, to use your example, for Veronica to carry the cross instead of Simon.

And yes, I mean instead of. Every girl serving means that there is a boy out there who cannot.

Even in your parish. Give me 6 months and I could have an all male altar boy cadre that is twice as large as what you have now. Open it up to all boys 4 to 24.

Right now, there are small boys in the congregation that would love to serve, but can’t because your pastor thinks he has enough servers already.

This last Sunday, I went to the 8:30pm Sunday Mass (in addition to our regular 9:30am) because it was being offered for a friend.

I got to watch a 4 year old boy serve his first Mass. The Mass was said by an African priest in residence in our parish. Father guided the boy up to the altar, showed when to genuflect and showed him when to take he seat. Some of the ‘middle’ altar boys let him hold the lavabo towel and present it to Father after the offetory.

In our parish, that experience would not have happend.

Now ask yourself this, is there a young boy, or several young boys, who could use that experience? Are you standing in the way of that experience? What is the Church in more need of, one of those young men given a early start towards the priesthood, or your experiences serving?

 

[Brendan]

CB,

You also mentioned that you are in an urban parish.

Here is a picture of the altarboy cadre at an inner city Detroit parish.

It maintains such a vibrant parish life that people will drive in from the suburbs for the Mass at this parish ( and yes, the Mass there is the Pauline Mass)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Is this something you would like for your parish?

(thanks, Lux, for the pic)

 

[ChemicalBean]

No, you’ve been misunderstanding what we have been saying.

We are saying that altar girls are not a good idea. And I have yet to hear any reasoning from you on why they should be used, other than Rome has allowed it.

Okay, well saying that girl’s altar service is not a good idea is different than saything they are wrong. So you are asking why I would differ from your opinion.

Point of wisdom: Just because one can do something doesn’t mean that one should do something. The Pope evidently knows this and even though he allows girls to serve worldwide, he does not make use of them in his diocese (Rome). The Pope does what he needs to do for his local parishes.

However, the Pope is not our local pastor, who likewise does what is needed for our parish. This is the most important reason for why girls’s service should be accepted, other than Rome has allowed it.

Much earlier in this discussion I relayed a description of my home parish. Small, urban, aging, and low-budget. We don’t have much of a sense of a parish community, and the things that we need to do visibly as a parish, like CCD, is all volunteer (minus a pastoral associate, a DRE, a secretary, and a groundskeeper.) Our parish desperately needs to get people involved in the life of the parish and to instill a renewed sense of stewardship. This has to begin at a young age. And since there are very few youngsters, and the ways in which a youngster can serve the parish are virtually non-existant, the only real outlet is for this is serving the Mass. We have recruited and welcomed all young people who are capable of doing a good job. Sex does not matter. All young people need to be taught stewardship, either through their personal endeavors or by witnessing the example of their peers.

Brendan:

The only thing I have heard is stuff about 'complementary roles". “Complemtary” does not mean identical. You want, to use your example, for Veronica to carry the cross instead of Simon.

No, you’re putting words in my mouth, I do not want Veronica to carry Simon’s cross. It was an illustrative example of the genius of male and female serving together at the Mass. The duties of servers can include crucifix-bearers, candle-bearers, and thurifers. This is analogous to Simon. The duties of servers can include attending to the priest by “setting the table” and washing the fingers. This is analogous to Veronica. (Now don’t get the idea that I would have only males carry stuff in procession and females do stuff during the mass, because this would not be true. You would be taking the analogy too far.)

Brendan:

And yes, I mean instead of. Every girl serving means that there is a boy out there who cannot.

No. Every girl serving means that she was trained and scheduled and showed up to serve at her appointed time, or else she was called in to substitute. Not every available server serves at every mass.

Brendan:

Give me 6 months and I could have an all male altar boy cadre that is twice as large as what you have now. Open it up to all boys 4 to 24.

Our sanctuary is small. We do not have room for more than 3 at a time, really don’t need more than 2, and often get by with 1.

It might be “cute” to have small boys up-in-front serving, but that would be a disaster. Practically speaking, they are not necessarily yet tall, strong, or controlled enough to carry a candle without dripping, hold a heavy book open without collapsing, or carry vessels without tripping and spilling. Young children in general need to be active and have a limited attention span. Can they sit attentively without squirming? Can they remember what they are supposed to do without causing distraction? They are not old enough to understand why they do what they do. And, they are not old enough to receive the Eucharist, which is the whole reason for their service in the first place.

Brendan:

I got to watch a 4 year old boy serve his first Mass…

Now ask yourself this, is there a young boy, or several young boys, who could use that experience? Are you standing in the way of that experience? What is the Church in more need of, one of those young men given a early start towards the priesthood, or your experiences serving?

Yes, there are several young boys, and several young girls who could use that experience. Though not that young, I was one of them once, and it blossomed into a love for the liturgy and the church. The Church is in most desperate need of young men and women who will love and serve God and Church.

This is why I cherish my experience as a server, why I stand up for all young people who would wish to serve mass and do it well, and why when I go home on college breaks I rarely serve the mass. There’s a new crop of youngsters who are scheduled and show up, and I would not want to rob them of that precious opportunity.

 

[ChemicalBean]

No, you’ve been misunderstanding what we have been saying.

We are saying that altar girls are not a good idea. And I have yet to hear any reasoning from you on why they should be used, other than Rome has allowed it.

Okay, well saying that girl’s altar service is not a good idea is different than saything they are wrong. So you are asking why I would differ from your opinion.

Point of wisdom: Just because one can do something doesn’t mean that one should do something. The Pope evidently knows this and even though he allows girls to serve worldwide, he does not make use of them in his diocese (Rome). The Pope does what he needs to do for his local parishes.

However, the Pope is not our local pastor, who likewise does what is needed for our parish. This is the most important reason for why girls’s service should be accepted, other than Rome has allowed it.

Much earlier in this discussion I relayed a description of my home parish. Small, urban, aging, and low-budget. We don’t have much of a sense of a parish community, and the things that we need to do visibly as a parish, like CCD, is all volunteer (minus a pastoral associate, a DRE, a secretary, and a groundskeeper.) Our parish desperately needs to get people involved in the life of the parish and to instill a renewed sense of stewardship. This has to begin at a young age. And since there are very few youngsters, and the ways in which a youngster can serve the parish are virtually non-existant, the only real outlet is for this is serving the Mass. We have recruited and welcomed all young people who are capable of doing a good job. Sex does not matter. All young people need to be taught stewardship, either through their personal endeavors or by witnessing the example of their peers.

Brendan:

The only thing I have heard is stuff about 'complementary roles". “Complemtary” does not mean identical. You want, to use your example, for Veronica to carry the cross instead of Simon.

No, you’re putting words in my mouth, I do not want Veronica to carry Simon’s cross. It was an illustrative example of the genius of male and female serving together at the Mass. The duties of servers can include crucifix-bearers, candle-bearers, and thurifers. This is analogous to Simon. The duties of servers can include attending to the priest by “setting the table” and washing the fingers. This is analogous to Veronica. (Now don’t get the idea that I would have only males carry stuff in procession and females do stuff during the mass, because this would not be true. You would be taking the analogy too far.)

Brendan:

And yes, I mean instead of. Every girl serving means that there is a boy out there who cannot.

No. Every girl serving means that she was trained and scheduled and showed up to serve at her appointed time, or else she was called in to substitute. Not every available server serves at every mass.

Brendan:

Give me 6 months and I could have an all male altar boy cadre that is twice as large as what you have now. Open it up to all boys 4 to 24.

Our sanctuary is small. We do not have room for more than 3 at a time, really don’t need more than 2, and often get by with 1.

It might be “cute” to have small boys up-in-front serving, but that would be a disaster. Practically speaking, they are not necessarily yet tall, strong, or controlled enough to carry a candle without dripping, hold a heavy book open without collapsing, or carry vessels without tripping and spilling. Young children in general need to be active and have a limited attention span. Can they sit attentively without squirming? Can they remember what they are supposed to do without causing distraction? They are not old enough to understand why they do what they do. And, they are not old enough to receive the Eucharist, which is the whole reason for their service in the first place.

Brendan:

I got to watch a 4 year old boy serve his first Mass…

Now ask yourself this, is there a young boy, or several young boys, who could use that experience? Are you standing in the way of that experience? What is the Church in more need of, one of those young men given a early start towards the priesthood, or your experiences serving?

Yes, there are several young boys, and several young girls who could use that experience. Though not that young, I was one of them once, and it blossomed into a love for the liturgy and the church. The Church is in most desperate need of young men and women who will love and serve God and Church.

This is why I cherish my experience as a server, why I stand up for all young people who would wish to serve mass and do it well, and why when I go home on college breaks I rarely serve the mass. There’s a new crop of youngsters who are scheduled and show up, and I would not want to rob them of that precious opportunity.

 

[ChemicalBean]

No, you’ve been misunderstanding what we have been saying.

We are saying that altar girls are not a good idea. And I have yet to hear any reasoning from you on why they should be used, other than Rome has allowed it.

Okay, well saying that girl’s altar service is not a good idea is different than saything they are wrong. So you are asking why I would differ from your opinion.

Point of wisdom: Just because one can do something doesn’t mean that one should do something. The Pope evidently knows this and even though he allows girls to serve worldwide, he does not make use of them in his diocese (Rome). The Pope does what he needs to do for his local parishes.

However, the Pope is not our local pastor, who likewise does what is needed for our parish. This is the most important reason for why girls’s service should be accepted, other than Rome has allowed it.

Much earlier in this discussion I relayed a description of my home parish. Small, urban, aging, and low-budget. We don’t have much of a sense of a parish community, and the things that we need to do visibly as a parish, like CCD, is all volunteer (minus a pastoral associate, a DRE, a secretary, and a groundskeeper.) Our parish desperately needs to get people involved in the life of the parish and to instill a renewed sense of stewardship. This has to begin at a young age. And since there are very few youngsters, and the ways in which a youngster can serve the parish are virtually non-existant, the only real outlet is for this is serving the Mass. We have recruited and welcomed all young people who are capable of doing a good job. Sex does not matter. All young people need to be taught stewardship, either through their personal endeavors or by witnessing the example of their peers.

Brendan:

The only thing I have heard is stuff about 'complementary roles". “Complemtary” does not mean identical. You want, to use your example, for Veronica to carry the cross instead of Simon.

No, you’re putting words in my mouth, I do not want Veronica to carry Simon’s cross. It was an illustrative example of the genius of male and female serving together at the Mass. The duties of servers can include crucifix-bearers, candle-bearers, and thurifers. This is analogous to Simon. The duties of servers can include attending to the priest by “setting the table” and washing the fingers. This is analogous to Veronica. (Now don’t get the idea that I would have only males carry stuff in procession and females do stuff during the mass, because this would not be true. You would be taking the analogy too far.)

Brendan:

And yes, I mean instead of. Every girl serving means that there is a boy out there who cannot.

No. Every girl serving means that she was trained and scheduled and showed up to serve at her appointed time, or else she was called in to substitute. Not every available server serves at every mass.

Brendan:

Give me 6 months and I could have an all male altar boy cadre that is twice as large as what you have now. Open it up to all boys 4 to 24.

Our sanctuary is small. We do not have room for more than 3 at a time, really don’t need more than 2, and often get by with 1.

It might be “cute” to have small boys up-in-front serving, but that would be a disaster. Practically speaking, they are not necessarily yet tall, strong, or controlled enough to carry a candle without dripping, hold a heavy book open without collapsing, or carry vessels without tripping and spilling. Young children in general need to be active and have a limited attention span. Can they sit attentively without squirming? Can they remember what they are supposed to do without causing distraction? They are not old enough to understand why they do what they do. And, they are not old enough to receive the Eucharist, which is the whole reason for their service in the first place.

Brendan:

I got to watch a 4 year old boy serve his first Mass…

Now ask yourself this, is there a young boy, or several young boys, who could use that experience? Are you standing in the way of that experience? What is the Church in more need of, one of those young men given a early start towards the priesthood, or your experiences serving?

Yes, there are several young boys, and several young girls who could use that experience. Though not that young, I was one of them once, and it blossomed into a love for the liturgy and the church. The Church is in most desperate need of young men and women who will love and serve God and Church.

This is why I cherish my experience as a server, why I stand up for all young people who would wish to serve mass and do it well, and why when I go home on college breaks I rarely serve the mass. There’s a new crop of youngsters who are scheduled and show up, and I would not want to rob them of that precious opportunity.

 

[ChemicalBean]

No, you’ve been misunderstanding what we have been saying.

We are saying that altar girls are not a good idea. And I have yet to hear any reasoning from you on why they should be used, other than Rome has allowed it.

Okay, well saying that girl’s altar service is not a good idea is different than saything they are wrong. So you are asking why I would differ from your opinion.

Point of wisdom: Just because one can do something doesn’t mean that one should do something. The Pope evidently knows this and even though he allows girls to serve worldwide, he does not make use of them in his diocese (Rome). The Pope does what he needs to do for his local parishes.

However, the Pope is not our local pastor, who likewise does what is needed for our parish. This is the most important reason for why girls’s service should be accepted, other than Rome has allowed it.

Much earlier in this discussion I relayed a description of my home parish. Small, urban, aging, and low-budget. We don’t have much of a sense of a parish community, and the things that we need to do visibly as a parish, like CCD, is all volunteer (minus a pastoral associate, a DRE, a secretary, and a groundskeeper.) Our parish desperately needs to get people involved in the life of the parish and to instill a renewed sense of stewardship. This has to begin at a young age. And since there are very few youngsters, and the ways in which a youngster can serve the parish are virtually non-existant, the only real outlet is for this is serving the Mass. We have recruited and welcomed all young people who are capable of doing a good job. Sex does not matter. All young people need to be taught stewardship, either through their personal endeavors or by witnessing the example of their peers.

Brendan:

The only thing I have heard is stuff about 'complementary roles". “Complemtary” does not mean identical. You want, to use your example, for Veronica to carry the cross instead of Simon.

No, you’re putting words in my mouth, I do not want Veronica to carry Simon’s cross. It was an illustrative example of the genius of male and female serving together at the Mass. The duties of servers can include crucifix-bearers, candle-bearers, and thurifers. This is analogous to Simon. The duties of servers can include attending to the priest by “setting the table” and washing the fingers. This is analogous to Veronica. (Now don’t get the idea that I would have only males carry stuff in procession and females do stuff during the mass, because this would not be true. You would be taking the analogy too far.)

Brendan:

And yes, I mean instead of. Every girl serving means that there is a boy out there who cannot.

No. Every girl serving means that she was trained and scheduled and showed up to serve at her appointed time, or else she was called in to substitute. Not every available server serves at every mass.

Brendan:

Give me 6 months and I could have an all male altar boy cadre that is twice as large as what you have now. Open it up to all boys 4 to 24.

Our sanctuary is small. We do not have room for more than 3 at a time, really don’t need more than 2, and often get by with 1.

It might be “cute” to have small boys up-in-front serving, but that would be a disaster. Practically speaking, they are not necessarily yet tall, strong, or controlled enough to carry a candle without dripping, hold a heavy book open without collapsing, or carry vessels without tripping and spilling. Young children in general need to be active and have a limited attention span. Can they sit attentively without squirming? Can they remember what they are supposed to do without causing distraction? They are not old enough to understand why they do what they do. And, they are not old enough to receive the Eucharist, which is the whole reason for their service in the first place.

Brendan:

I got to watch a 4 year old boy serve his first Mass…

Now ask yourself this, is there a young boy, or several young boys, who could use that experience? Are you standing in the way of that experience? What is the Church in more need of, one of those young men given a early start towards the priesthood, or your experiences serving?

Yes, there are several young boys, and several young girls who could use that experience. Though not that young, I was one of them once, and it blossomed into a love for the liturgy and the church. The Church is in most desperate need of young men and women who will love and serve God and Church.

This is why I cherish my experience as a server, why I stand up for all young people who would wish to serve mass and do it well, and why when I go home on college breaks I rarely serve the mass. There’s a new crop of youngsters who are scheduled and show up, and I would not want to rob them of that precious opportunity.

 

[ChemicalBean]

Mods, could you please delete my dupilcate post? The database burped when I tried to submit, so I think I clicked twice.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

We have recruited and welcomed all young people who are capable of doing a good job. Sex does not matter. All young people need to be taught stewardship, either through their personal endeavors or by witnessing the example of their peers.

They can be taught all of those things while serving in roles proper to their state in life. That is really the crux of things, traditionally, females just do not serve at the altar.

The duties of servers can include crucifix-bearers, candle-bearers, and thurifers. This is analogous to Simon. The duties of servers can include attending to the priest by “setting the table” and washing the fingers. This is analogous to Veronica.

But that is not how things are seen. We help to bear Christ’s cross by accepting our own crosses, and we wipe the face of Christ when we do something for the least of His people.