Whats wrong with female altar girls?

[Brendan]

CB,

Here is a little bit about how our parish provides service opportunites for our children in Mass

Our younger altarboys carry swing torches in procession at Mass
http://home.comcast.net/~bnewell100460/images/Altarboys1.jpg

Most of them sit outside the sanctuary during Mass, entering only to perform their particular duties ( ringing the Sanctus Bells, recieving the offetory gifts, holding the Patens at Communion) - On the far side of the altar boys is the teen girls choir (close to the organ)
http://home.comcast.net/~bnewell100460/images/Altarboys2.jpg

The other girls in the parish bring up the gifts at offetory.
http://home.comcast.net/~bnewell100460/images/offertory.jpg

And yes, there is very much a role for the younger boys. Here is my 8 year old son holding the paten. He is also familiar enough with the order of Mass to know the 4 times the bells are to be rung, which is he ‘next level’
http://home.comcast.net/~bnewell100460/images/DS_w_Paten.jpg

That 4 year old altar server I mentioned before assisted my son and a 9 year old boy at Mass. He was more than just ‘cute’. The 4 year old presented Father with the lavabo towel at the finger washing. He was trained to do so by my 8 year old and the 9 year old, in much the same way as the 10-11 year olds are training my son when to rung the bells. They, in turn, are being trained by the ‘black cassocks’ the older altar boys to turn the pages of the Sacramentary at the correct times, place and remove the chalice pall at the correct timesand set and clear the altar.

Each set of boys is trained by, at looks up to, the next set of older boys and desires to be like them. Something that would be very difficult if the older ‘boys’ were actually girls.

And then the oldest set of boys looks up to, and desires to be, the priest himself. Hence the source of so many vocations in our parish. And again, something that the girls cannot do. About 1/3 of the young men you see in the black cassocks go on to the seminary.

BTW, all those pictures were from last Wed 8:30 Mass. There are about two-three times as many at a Sunday Mass.

 

[netmilsmom]

Much earlier in this discussion I relayed a description of my home parish. Small, urban, aging, and low-budget. We don’t have much of a sense of a parish community, and the things that we need to do visibly as a parish, like CCD, is all volunteer (minus a pastoral associate, a DRE, a secretary, and a groundskeeper.) Our parish desperately needs to get people involved in the life of the parish and to instill a renewed sense of stewardship. This has to begin at a young age. And since there are very few youngsters, and the ways in which a youngster can serve the parish are virtually non-existant, the only real outlet is for this is serving the Mass. We have recruited and welcomed all young people who are capable of doing a good job. Sex does not matter. All young people need to be taught stewardship, either through their personal endeavors or by witnessing the example of their peers.

I’m sorry but I’m reading cop out here.
We have NO paid positions, none. If you have true concern about the young in your parish and getting them involved, are you ready to step up to the plate or is it easier to let it happen.

Our sanctuary is small. We do not have room for more than 3 at a time, really don’t need more than 2, and often get by with 1.

And our church seats 300. It’s not big either. Reread my post about the First Sunday in Lent. 100 Altar boys.

It might be “cute” to have small boys up-in-front serving, but that would be a disaster.

That is amazingly patronizing. It’s not a "cute’ thing, it’s tremendously serious to those boys.
When we went to mass today, one of our friend’s boys was serving. He is five. While in the pew, he glanced our way. I winked at him. His eyes turned back to the Altar with no reaction.
He told me where my mind should be at.

And, they are not old enough to receive the Eucharist, which is the whole reason for their service in the first place.

Why do you feel they must receive to serve?

 

[ChemicalBean]

I’m sorry but I’m reading cop out here.
We have NO paid positions, none. If you have true concern about the young in your parish and getting them involved, are you ready to step up to the plate or is it easier to let it happen.

I really don’t care what you “read.” I was just describing our situation. FYI, for 9 YEARS I “stepped up to the plate” and served at Mass - almost every weekend - because no one else did. I go to college 100 miles away. Now call me unconcerned or dare me to make change happen when it’s not my primary church.

And our church seats 300. It’s not big either. Reread my post about the First Sunday in Lent. 100 Altar boys.

That’s a superfluous amount of altar servers taking the sanctuary by storm. They couldn’t possibly be all needed to perform the functions of servers. How is this any better than way too many EMHCs that so many on this board complain about?

That is amazingly patronizing. It’s not a "cute’ thing, it’s tremendously serious to those boys.

Who first said this, and how is it not patronizing?:

We start at four, don’t we?
I love seeing the littlest ones trying so hard!

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Why do you feel they must receive to serve?

I didn’t say that they must receive when serving. It just makes good liturgical sense that altar servers would have made their first communion. They are ‘temporarily deputized’ to serve the role of acolytes, who are special ministers of Holy Communion. They wear the alb, the liturgical garment proper to all the baptised. In a concrete way their service signifies the assistance that is the right and responsibility of the whole assembly. We in the assembly, whether or not we are trying to watch them, take our cue from those who have a visible role (you yourself noted this). I remember that as a server, when I stood, everybody stood, when I bowed, everybody bowed, etc. From this perspective, it would really be best if all servers were fully initated, having received Confirmation (yes, I am becoming one of those who would be in favor of preparing pre-teens for Confirmation and then doing First Communion right after.) But the way things are in most places, servers should at least be of age to receive communion.

 

[netmilsmom]

I really don’t care what you “read.” I was just describing our situation. FYI, for 9 YEARS I “stepped up to the plate” and served at Mass - almost every weekend - because no one else did. I go to college 100 miles away. Now call me unconcerned or dare me to make change happen when it’s not my primary church.

No, as an adult, stepping up to the plate. Sounds like your parish needs volunteers for children’s programs. You are in college now, maybe when you get out.
It’s easy to take the altar girl route. It’s much harder to volunteer to guide those children. It may not be you, (dare you? ) but perhaps if there was an adult who took the ball the parish wouldn’t have to take the easy out.

That’s a superfluous amount of altar servers taking the sanctuary by storm. They couldn’t possibly be all needed to perform the functions of servers. How is this any better than way too many EMHCs that so many on this board complain about?

You’re skipping Brendan’s details.The majority process in and take a seat. They don’t run around the altar, and usurp the role of priest as EMHC’s in some parishes do. They are part of the opening procession. And then each role is a different server. They are all important. Whether they carry a candle and take a seat or hold a paten.

Who first said this, and how is it not patronizing?:

A young boy trying his best to be reverent is a beautiful sight.
Where did I say it was “Cute”?

I didn’t say that they must receive when serving. It just makes good liturgical sense that altar servers would have made their first communion.

Got some reference for your “good liturgical sense”? Some people think female priests would be “good liturgical sense”.

 

[Brendan]

That’s a superfluous amount of altar servers taking the sanctuary by storm. They couldn’t possibly be all needed to perform the functions of servers.

Your statement would only be true if you have a limited understanding of the role of altarboys. Their function is to learn to serve at God’s Altar, preferably as priests.

Holding things like candels and pouring cruets is the means, not the goal

How is this any better than way too many EMHCs that so many on this board complain about?

Because the Vatican says that EMHC’s should only be used in an extraordinary way, where there is no other way to effectively distribute Communion

The Vatican, on the other hand, has heavily encouraged the use of altarboys. Watch a Pontifical Mass on EWTN sometime. You’ll see dozens, if not hundrends of altarboys “storming” the sanctuary. But very few, if any EMHC’s.

I suppose all those altarboys are wrong then too?

 

[Brendan]

"ChemicalBean:

Who first said this, and how is it not patronizing?:

Dr. Bombay first used that word in the first page, relative to his days being an altarboy serving next to an altargirl he had a crush on.

You used it next on page 4 to in relation to the era when boys were gentlemen and girls were ladies.

But, in relation to young altarserver YOU used it first, and yes it IS patronizing.

From post 234 above

It might be “cute” to have small boys up-in-front serving, but that would be a disaster.

 

[Podo2005]

Why does everyone seem to be against them so much?

im not against them, there is nothing wrong with them serving

Podo

God Bless

 

[Brendan]

im not against them, there is nothing wrong with them serving

Podo

God Bless

But it doesn’t necessarily follow that there is much RIGHT about them serving, only that it is allowed under certain circumstances.

 

[marci]

The practice is allowed at this time, but I believe the privledge was extended to pacify the feminists. I have daughters and when they are of age I will not allow them to serve, it they should ask. I doubt, however, that they would as they have heard me speak about this on more than one occasion.

Just last night at mass, I was dismayed by the fact that there were six girls and only two young boys serving. I must admit that this was a slight improvement, normally there are nothing but girls serving.

What is happening to the men of our faith. Every mass I go to no matter what the parish, nothing but women doing everything. Women readers, women EM’s, female alter servers, it seems the only thing the men still do is take up the collections. To all of you who pray for more to answer the call to Holy Order, pray also for good, strong, catholic men to return to places of visibility in the church.

 

[netmilsmom]

What is happening to the men of our faith. Every mass I go to no matter what the parish, nothing but women doing everything. Women readers, women EM’s, female alter servers, it seems the only thing the men still do is take up the collections. To all of you who pray for more to answer the call to Holy Order, pray also for good, strong, catholic men to return to places of visibility in the church.

Like most of society, men have been minimalized. Until we give our good Catholic men a place they deserve, they won’t come back.
My hubby is going to the Usher meeting this week, the ONE place we are lacking in our parish. (See, Altar boys, male and female readers, and our EMHCs are Extraordinary, male only) This will entail my getting up and dressing my girls to get to the church every Sunday morning after 9:30 mass for choir practice then attending with my husband at 6:30pm. Once a month, when they sing at mass we will attend twice. My prayers at those masses will be that we have so many men who want to be Ushers that my hubby will be able to skip the week that the girls sing.

If he wants to do this, we will support him!

 

[jay29]

The only reason why we have altar girls is because of feminism. Altar girls did not come from tradition nor scripture.

 

[ChemicalBean]

Got some reference for your “good liturgical sense”? Some people think female priests would be “good liturgical sense”.

Netmil(name removed by moderator),

I will refer you to this as a document backing my “good liturgical sense.” But since when did common sense need to be proof-texted? USCCB Committee on the Liturgy: Guidelines for Altar Server

For the edification of posters here, I’ll pull a couple paragraphs relevant to previous discussions.

1.) First off (for Brendan):

2. No distinction should be made between the functions carried out in the sanctuary by men and boys and those carried out by women and girls. The term “altar boys” should be replaced by “servers”. The term “server” should be used for those who carry out the functions of the instituted acolyte.

2.) Secondly (for you):

3. Servers should be mature enough to understand their responsibilities and** to carry them out well** and with appropriate reverence. They should have already received holy communion for the first time and normally receive the eucharist whenever they participate in the liturgy.

3.) Thirdly, for what evidently is happening at SSC&M,

100 servers??? This is crazyness! The bishops envision at least one, and 2 or more, but they don’t say anything about 100, or even 50, or 25. In most situations, even 10 would be overkill.

5. Since the role of server is integral to the normal celebration of the Mass, at least one server should assist the priest. On Sundays and other more important occasions, two or more servers should be employed to carry out the various functions normally entrusted to these ministers

And this working up to being a “black cassock” thing? Altar serving isn’t martial arts! A server, is a server, is a server. This practice of different vestiture is problematic because it says that there are varying degrees of laity (as there are varying degrees of ordained, who do vest differently).

6. Acolytes, altar servers, readers, and other lay ministers may wear the alb or other suitable vesture or other appropriate or dignified clothing. (General Instruction of the Roman Missal, no.339) All servers should wear the same liturgical vesture.

It seems that the US Bishops welcome the service at the altar of “men and women, boys and girls.” This document describes the liturgical role well, and it says nothing about it being a road to priesthood, unsuitable for one of the sexes, or making boys feel special. We should make our boys feel special. Let’s just not trump our girls in the process.

 

[Brendan]

CB,

Did you read the top of the ‘guidelines’

The following guidelines were prepared by the Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy and presented to the National Conference of Catholic Bishops **for discussion **at the June 1994 Special Assembly on Thursday, June 16, 1994. The suggested guidelines have been slightly revised according to the third typical edition of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. They may be used as a basis for developing diocesan guidelines.

These are discussion points only that haven’t even been voted on by the USCCB at large.

It has no authority what so ever. And it even specifically states that it has no authority.

(And I do love the term they used “suggested guidlines” that "may be used as a basis "; could they have put in any more redundant ambiguity )

Also, this “suggested guideline” states that all servers should were the same vesture. Do the lectors at your parish were the same style albs as the altarservers?

100 servers??? This is crazyness! The bishops envision at least one, and 2 or more, but they don’t say anything about 100, or even 50, or 25. In most situations, even 10 would be overkill.

Hmmm, did you not read what I had posted about watching a Papal Mass on EWTN, the Popes have over 100 altarBOYS. Are you saying that the bishops cannot envision a Papal Mass.

And if the Pope uses 100+ servers, why not SS C&M, is the celebrant any less the Person of Christ, is the Eucharist any less Chris’s Real Presence?

God Himself uses multitudes of angels as his servants. Sure he could get by with just one or two, maybe even 10. But God Himself chooses to surround Himself with servant ministers for the Heavenly Mass. And since any Catholic Mass is that one and same Mass that Christ Himself celebrants, why should we not imitate the environs even more?

And this working up to being a “black cassock” thing? Altar serving isn’t martial arts! A server, is a server, is a server. This practice of different vestiture is problematic because it says that there are varying degrees of laity (as there are varying degrees of ordained, who do vest differently).

The black cassock and surplice show more completely the specific role that the altar boys are performing, that they are in imitation of the clerical role, the same role to which they are aspiring.

 

[Brendan]

And one other point

The BCL document says

The determination that women and girls may function as servers in the liturgy should be made by the bishop on the diocesan level so that there might be a uniform diocesan policy.

But the Vatican said that individual priest can make their own determination on the use of girls as altar servers and cannot be forced by the bishop (or the pastor) to make use of altargirls.

So that part of the document, at least, would require a Vatican recognito in addition to a full vote of the USCCB if it is to be put into effect.

 

[netmilsmom]

Netmil(name removed by moderator),

I will refer you to this as a document backing my “good liturgical sense.” But since when did common sense need to be proof-texted? USCCB Committee on the Liturgy: Guidelines for Altar Server

When people started using the “Spirit of Vatican II” to bend and sidestep the rules put down by the Vatican. Some people think that Barney blessings are good liturgical sense. One must look at the rules to see if it stands the smell test.

I asked for your reference to “good liturgical sense” in regard to this…

It just makes good liturgical sense that altar servers would have made their first communion.

I’m not seeing that in anything you quoted from the discussion guidelines of the Bishops.

100 servers??? This is crazyness! The bishops envision at least one, and 2 or more, but they don’t say anything about 100, or even 50, or 25. In most situations, even 10 would be overkill.

Opinion, simply your opinion. Maybe you as a server just didn’t do much but ours each have a place.
When one simplifies the Holy Mass to a communal meal, why bother with servers at all? How about a buffet?

We should make our boys feel special. Let’s just not trump our girls in the process.

We don’t. Altar Boys/Choir girls. Our girls serve the Lord as well unless you think that Altar boys are a higher degree of laity than a Singer in the Choir.

 

[Brendan]

100 servers??? This is crazyness! .

One other point CB,

As I mentioned, both John Paul II and now Benedict celebrate Mass with 100+ servers. Do you consider that to be a comment on their sanity?

 

[Formosus]

Well there were 100s of servers at the March for Life Mass.

 

[jmcrae]

And yes, I mean instead of. Every girl serving means that there is a boy out there who cannot.

That’s ridiculous - there is no limit on the number of altar servers. If you can have 100 altar servers at a single Mass, then there is no reason you couldn’t have 200 - 100 boys and 100 girls.

Every child in the whole parish could become an altar server, and there would still be something for him or her to do.

They used to say that if women received equal wages for equal work, that men would become unemployed due to the number of female workers in the work force. But we went ahead and got jobs, anyway, and instead of men becoming unemployed, we have the opposite problem - there are more jobs than workers available to fill them, even with every able-bodied adult working at least part-time - and a great many disabled persons doing whatever they can, too, besides.

 

[Brendan]

That’s ridiculous - there is no limit on the number of altar servers. If you can have 100 altar servers at a single Mass, then there is no reason you couldn’t have 200 - 100 boys and 100 girls.
.

That’s what we have. 100 boys holding candels and patens and 100 girls singing.

All of them are serving at Mass.

See, great solution

 

[netmilsmom]

That’s ridiculous - there is no limit on the number of altar servers. If you can have 100 altar servers at a single Mass, then there is no reason you couldn’t have 200 - 100 boys and 100 girls.

Every child in the whole parish could become an altar server, and there would still be something for him or her to do.

Actually, that’s true in our parish where many altar boys are the rule, but not in a parish where they think that one or two should be the limit.

What it would do is leave us lacking in Choir girls.
We have a Nativity play coming up. The parts go like this…
One Drummer Boy- 1st grade (male)
Three Kings- 1st and 2nd grade (male)
Angels -1st through 5th grade (male and female)
Mary- 4th or 5th grade (female of course)
Joseph -4th or 5th grade (last year we had no volunteers, the organizer got her son to be Joseph)
Archangels - 5th grade and up (female)
Shepherds - 3rd and 4th grade

Last year my daughter was the first female shepherd ever in the history of our parish because we only had two. None of the boys wanted to be shepherds, they wanted to be Altarboys.

If girls served the Altar, it would totally eliminate our children’s choir.
Each has his/her place.