Whats wrong with female altar girls?

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netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Last year my daughter was the first female shepherd ever in the history of our parish because we only had two. None of the boys wanted to be shepherds, they wanted to be Altarboys.

If girls served the Altar, it would totally eliminate our children’s choir.
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Of course the boys didn’t want to be in a play! Through segregation, your parish has managed to teach them that singing and dramatics is “girly” stuff. Ewww. Society enforces that enough, anyway. Gotta eat meat, grunt, play football, be a man. None of that stuff that conveys feelings.

Do you realize how special the boys would really be 5 years from now when they are praised for having a developed singing voice! They would practically be a shoe-in for every school choir and musical theater show.
 
Brendan said:
One other point CB,

As I mentioned, both John Paul II and now Benedict celebrate Mass with 100+ servers. Do you consider that to be a comment on their sanity?
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No, did you?? The situation sure sounds crazy, though.
 
ChemicalBean said:
Of course the boys didn’t want to be in a play! Through segregation, your parish has managed to teach them that singing and dramatics is “girly” stuff. Ewww. Society enforces that enough, anyway. Gotta eat meat, grunt, play football, be a man. None of that stuff that conveys feelings.

Do you realize how special the boys would really be 5 years from now when they are praised for having a developed singing voice! They would practically be a shoe-in for every school choir and musical theater show.
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We have a men’s choir that is going to be performing Gregorian Chant for Midnight Mass.
The boys learn from their fathers, our wonderful cantor, our Pastor (God Bless him and may he live a long life) and the men who play the organ (one of which is leading the Men’s Choir).

Maybe the problem is that you don’t know any strong Catholic men because they have all been shown that they are nothing special? How many good strong Catholic men are leading in your parish?
 
ChemicalBean said:
No, did you?? The situation sure sounds crazy, though.
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You don’t consider +Benedict having large numbers of servers to be crazy, but at the same time, you claim that “the situation sure sounds crazy”

Can you explain further?
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
I asked for your reference to “good liturgical sense” in regard to this…
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ChemicalBean:
It just makes good liturgical sense that altar servers would have made their first communion.
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I’m not seeing that in anything you quoted from the discussion guidelines of the Bishops.
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Did you not read? I even bolded it the first time around.
BCL:
  1. Servers should be mature enough to understand their responsibilities and to carry them out well and with appropriate reverence. They should have already received holy communion for the first time and normally receive the eucharist whenever they participate in the liturgy.
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I don’t know how much more clear of a guideline that can get. Unless you are a studied liturgist or theologian, I’ll trust that the USCCB’s committee has more sense than you, or I, have with respect to liturgy.
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Opinion, simply your opinion.
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Yep, opinion is what this whole thread’s discussion has been. The fact is, there is nothing wrong with female altar servers.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
How many good strong Catholic men are leading in your parish?
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Actually, we have several, as lector, EMHC, cantor, usher. Used to have a couple as servers, too. The Parish Council is 80% men. But they are all old, because this parish has very limited ways in which children and youth can serve, save at the altar.
 
ChemicalBean said:
Did you not read? I even bolded it the first time around.

I don’t know how much more clear of a guideline that can get. Unless you are a studied liturgist or theologian, I’ll trust that the USCCB’s committee has more sense than you, or I, have with respect to liturgy.
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Should and have to are two different things.
The USCCB had a discussion about this however and there was no vote making it valid.
How about something that sticks?
Yep, opinion is what this whole thread’s discussion has been. The fact is, there is nothing wrong with female altar servers.
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Well, are there good strong men leading at your parish? Perhaps there is something wrong with AltarGirls, we just found the answer at our parish.

Your opinion of what it is to be a man is this
Gotta eat meat, grunt, play football, be a man.
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Mine is a God fearing gentleman, who raises a family to love Our Lord and serves at His Altar. A man who is willing to lead, willing to teach, willing to love a boy, just the way they are.
 
ChemicalBean said:
Actually, we have several, as lector, EMHC, cantor, usher. Used to have a couple as servers, too. The Parish Council is 80% men. But they are all old, because this parish has very limited ways in which children and youth can serve, save at the altar.
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Well, you’ve lost the young men. What will be done to bring them back?

Ever take a Sales class? How do we sell something? We don’t do it by showing how wonderful the product is for someone else, we do it by showing how wonderful it is for that person.
If we want strong Catholic Young men to serve, we must sell them on the idea that they have something to gain from it.

What has been tried so far?

I guess the far bigger question would have to be, why is singing in the choir less of a service than serving on the altar?

My girls do Slovak and Polish dance. They don’t always get the leads. I tell them that if there were no dancers in the backround, the leads would be just plain silly up there dancing alone.

All are serving Our Lord in the Holy Mass.
 
Brendan said:
You don’t consider +Benedict having large numbers of servers to be crazy, but at the same time, you claim that “the situation sure sounds crazy”

Can you explain further?
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Uhh…sure. Try organizing 100 young people to do anything ritualistic on a regular basis. Let’s see…over 100 albs and cinctures of various sizes to be arranged and kept neat and hanging up. Making sure everybody’s on the same page of “what task they do this time”, and if there’s not enough to do then whipping up a torch for them to carry, lining them up to parade in and out, making a seating arrangement so as not to cause problems entering/exiting or depriving pews from average massgoers and elderly, etc. I could easily see the mass becoming a celebration of the altarservers and waiting to see what they do next, instead of focusing on the word and sacrament. The simple beauty of the mass turns into a choreographed production so that children and their parents can feel good about it.

Benedict can do what he darn well pleases. There are of cathedral, and bascilica, and outdoor tent masses arranged with plenty of space for all those people. The average US parish church is not built for this and it would be inappropriate.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Well, you’ve lost the young men. What will be done to bring them back?

Ever take a Sales class? How do we sell something? We don’t do it by showing how wonderful the product is for someone else, we do it by showing how wonderful it is for that person.
If we want strong Catholic Young men to serve, we must sell them on the idea that they have something to gain from it.

What has been tried so far?
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not at this time of year… I see lots of products that I think would be “good” for my dear wife… smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_61v.gif

course, maybe you are right… if it is good for her, and she is happy with me… it is good for me… smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_15_61.gif

%between%
 
ChemicalBean said:
Uhh…sure. Try organizing 100 young people to do anything ritualistic on a regular basis. Let’s see…over 100 albs and cinctures of various sizes to be arranged and kept neat and hanging up. Making sure everybody’s on the same page of “what task they do this time”, and if there’s not enough to do then whipping up a torch for them to carry, lining them up to parade in and out, making a seating arrangement so as not to cause problems entering/exiting or depriving pews from average massgoers and elderly, etc. I could easily see the mass becoming a celebration of the altarservers and waiting to see what they do next, instead of focusing on the word and sacrament. The simple beauty of the mass turns into a choreographed production so that children and their parents can feel good about it.

Benedict can do what he darn well pleases. There are of cathedral, and bascilica, and outdoor tent masses arranged with plenty of space for all those people. The average US parish church is not built for this and it would be inappropriate.
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We have a church that seats 300. 600 when the accordian walls are opened to the hall.
We do it every week. It’s not that hard.

I think that if you are ever in the Detroit area, you should PM me. Truly. I’ll take you to the 9:30 Holy Mass and you will see how it should be done.

I’ll even take you to Nosh’s for brunch after. Owned by a parishioner and the best food in the state! 🙂
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Should and have to are two different things.
The USCCB had a discussion about this however and there was no vote making it valid.
How about something that sticks?
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How about you provide any Church document, promulgated or not, that specifically suggests we have 4-year olds, or anyone not of age to receive Communion, serving the mass? You seem to think this makes good liturgical sense, so I’ll put it on you to “show” that.
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Your opinion of what it is to be a man is this:
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ChemicalBean:
Ewww. **Society enforces that enough, **
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anyway. Gotta eat meat, grunt, play football, be a man. None of that stuff that conveys feelings.
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In case you can’t tell, that’s sarcasm. Of course that’s not my opinion of what it is to be a man. That is my opinion of what society says it is to be a man. You seem to be quick to spin my words ad hominem. Stop that.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Well, you’ve lost the young men. What will be done to bring them back?
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We haven’t lost the young men any more than we’ve lost the young women. They simply aren’t abundant, that’s been the whole point of my parish. We could tell our parishioners to make lots of babies and wait a few years, but I’m sure that will go over really well. Particularly since the bulk of our parishioners are “advanced in years.”
I guess the far bigger question would have to be, why is singing in the choir less of a service than serving on the altar?
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I’ve never said this, nor have I implied it. Why do you insist twice that I have? All I’ve said is that you shouldn’t restrict your servers to boys and your choir to girls.
 
ChemicalBean said:
How about you provide any Church document, promulgated or not, that specifically suggests we have 4-year olds, or anyone not of age to receive Communion, serving the mass? You seem to think this makes good liturgical sense, so I’ll put it on you to “show” that.
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I have done a Google search and can’t find anything that says that a four year old can’t serve. I’m reading that it’s up to the Priest. Do you have the reference that states that it is not up to the Priest?
 
ChemicalBean said:
I’ve never said this, nor have I implied it. Why do you insist twice that I have? All I’ve said is that you shouldn’t restrict your servers to boys and your choir to girls.
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Why?
If a girl has a place to serve that is of just as important a place as a boy, what is the difference?
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Why?
If a girl has a place to serve that is of just as important a place as a boy, what is the difference?
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The difference is that God calls us to serve with joy. Some girls would be a lot more joyful serving at mass than forced into a choir or just sitting with their family. Some boys would be a lot more joyful singing in a choir than forced to serve mass or just sitting with their family. God creates us with different personalities, affinities, and talents.
 
, I do not have sons. Only girls. My older daughter would love to serve on the altar. She never will while she lives in my house. She sings until she can read. In between, she can lead the Rosary or bring up the gifts.

Our boys deserve better.

You don’t approve of altar girls even the Pope is fine with them. So…you are more Catholic than the Pope!?
Hmmm…I never thought I’d actually have the opportunity to know someone like that.
 
Maybe the problem is that you don’t know any strong Catholic men because they have all been shown that they are nothing special? How many good strong Catholic men are leading in your parish?

They are not more special than the girls! We need both good, strong Catholic men AND women.
There’s no reason on Earth that the male notion of superiority should be reinforced, especially in God’s house, where there is no male or female!
 
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