Whats wrong with female altar girls?

[maryjk]

Your point is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
We are not discussing biological differences here. You are correct that males cannot bear children, however.

No, it is relevent.

You are saying that IF a priest does not have altar girls, he is saying they are less than the boys.

I am saying that boys and girls do different things. They **are different, not less.
**
You are stating that if girls are not allowed at the altar to serve they **are less, not just different.
**
Very relevent.

 

[netmilsmom]

I agree with you.

Only a bully would be made to “feel good” by someone else being made to feel inferior and unwanted.

The Church has need of both men and women to serve in many areas of lay ministry, but it has no need of bullies, in any capacity whatsoever.

If anything, we are teaching our girls that they are Just as Important as the boys because Father makes them that way. Huge kudos for our choirs.
And we are teaching them that there is a difference between them and the boys. The difference being that they will never be saying a mass.

We have female readers and most importantly MOMS who make lots of good Catholic children. Boys need to be Dads. Our men show them the way.

 

[Karianne]

Those who see no problem with girls as acolytes during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, miss the point by a mile! One has to understand the mind set of young boys to fully understand what makes a boy tick. When he sees girls in the sanctuary and when he sees female EMHCs, a young boy no longer sees the priesthood and all that surrounds it as something uniquely male. When he sees, year after year, the feminization of the Faith, he no longer sees a unique role for himself.

Does anyone think that a young man walking into a Marine Corps recruiting station would ever think of signing up if the recruiters were female? Not hardly.

I’ve always chuckle when I hear women try to explain how boys and men think. Good luck. You just won’t be able to do it.----If we are ever to regain our pre-Vatican II numbers to the priesthood, we need to return the sanctuary to the priest and to male acolytes only! (I would also add, end the reign of the EMHCs.)

You’re kidding around, right?
You don’t HONESTLY think that female recruiters cannot get guys to join the Marines!

We’ll regain our pre-vatican two numbers to the priesthood as soon as priests are allowed to marry.
And that’s coming very soon.

 

[netmilsmom]

No, it is relevent.

You are saying that IF a priest does not have altar girls, he is saying they are less than the boys.

I am saying that boys and girls do different things. They **are different, not less.
**
You are stating that if girls are not allowed at the altar to serve they **are less, not just different.
**
Very relevent.

Exactly!

 

[jmcrae]

but it does state the case that there are male and female roles in the church.

Only with regard to the Sacrament of Holy Orders, in which the participant is in persona Christi - that is, among other things, he becomes an icon of Christ.

In everything else, there is neither male nor female, we are all baptized equally into Christ, and we are equally responsible for assisting our priests in spreading the Gospel. There is no good reason for half the population of able-bodied workers to stand all the day idle, as long as there is work to be done in the vineyard of the Lord. (cf. Matthew 20:6)

 

[netmilsmom]

Only with regard to the Sacrament of Holy Orders, in which the participant is in persona Christi - that is, among other things, he becomes an icon of Christ.

In everything else, there is neither male nor female, we are all baptized equally into Christ, and we are equally responsible for assisting our priests in spreading the Gospel. There is no good reason for half the population of able-bodied workers to stand all the day idle, as long as there is work to be done in the vineyard of the Lord. (cf. Matthew 20:6)

Oh trust me, there is a ton of stuff for our ladies to do.
We don’t stand idle at all!
Whether it’s Right-to-Life or homebound ministries, we are busy enough.

 

[ChemicalBean]

Only with regard to the Sacrament of Holy Orders, in which the participant is in persona Christi - that is, among other things, he becomes an icon of Christ.

In everything else, there is neither male nor female, we are all baptized equally into Christ, and we are equally responsible for assisting our priests in spreading the Gospel. There is no good reason for half the population of able-bodied workers to stand all the day idle, as long as there is work to be done in the vineyard of the Lord. (cf. Matthew 20:6)

Right on, jmcrae!

Put in other words, the altar server is a lay role. Both males and females are lay people. Therefore, the altar server is both a male and a female role.

 

[ChemicalBean]

Oh trust me, there is a ton of stuff for our ladies to do.
We don’t stand idle at all!
Whether it’s Right-to-Life or homebound ministries, we are busy enough.

Where are your good, strong Catholic men in all these ministries? Shouldn’t your boys be involved in this too?

 

[Brendan]

Only with regard to the Sacrament of Holy Orders, in which the participant is in persona Christi - that is, among other things, he becomes an icon of Christ.

In everything else, there is neither male nor female, we are all baptized equally into Christ, and we are equally responsible for assisting our priests in spreading the Gospel. There is no good reason for half the population of able-bodied workers to stand all the day idle, as long as there is work to be done in the vineyard of the Lord. (cf. Matthew 20:6)

Well the Vatican disagrees. The instituted roles of actolyte and lector are men only. Women are only permitted to serve in those roles when there is an absence of duly instituted lay men and strictly on a temporary deputized basis.

If a woman is schedule to read the Epistles at a Mass, and an instituted man shows up, three guesses as to which one needs to step aside.

The very fact that the man represents more fully the ordained roles seems to be a “good reason” to the Vatican.

In addition, any individual priest cannot be required to accept the services of a woman in any of those roles, strictly on the grounds that they are female. Not even his own bishop can order him to do so, as the Vatican has told the bishops they do not have that particular authority.

 

[Brendan]

Right on, jmcrae!

Put in other words, the altar server is a lay role. Both males and females are lay people. Therefore, the altar server is both a male and a female role.

See above. Both acolyte and lector are male lay roles. So it is clearly cannot be said that just because something is a lay role, it is appropriate for both sexes.

In fact, if a deputized female is in operating in one of those roles, they have to step aside when an instituted man is present and desires to serve.

 

[Brendan]

Where are your good, strong Catholic men in all these ministries? Shouldn’t your boys be involved in this too?

Right to Life is one area where women have a clear advantage over men.

I can’t tell you the number of times when I’ve tried to preach the Gosple of Life and be told that I’m just a man and this is a woman’s issue.

A woman is much more effective in combating ardent pro-aborts because she takes away their first argument.

In addition, a person like my wife ( 5th child due any day now) is also more effective at reaching the scared teen than I am. The teen usually relates to my wife’s stories of the challeges and graces of being a mother than my stories of fatherhood.

On the homebound front, I can also tell you that the old ladies ( which make up the large majority of residents in the nursing home we visit) take to the girls a lot more than the boys.

One lady , in particular, had 3 sons, and now 4 grandsons. No daughters or granddaughters. Her special joy is having tea parties with my daughters. She always wanted to do that with daughters. The ladies do admire my son when he hold doors open for them or offeres to escort them down to the social hall.

 

[edward_george]

At this point in time we do not have female priests.
If the Pope okayed them, it would be fine with me.

I’m glad that it’s okay by you for women to be ordained. However, it’s not okay by the Pope, the Church, or 2000 years of tradition. Quite the contrary; tradition–most especially represented by His Holiness John Paul II’s encyclical Ordinatio Sacerdotalis–states that the Church doesn’t have the power to ordain women, can never ordain women, and will never ordain women. Rome has spoken. The case is closed.

-ACEGC

 

[jmcrae]

I’m glad that it’s okay by you for women to be ordained. However, it’s not okay by the Pope, the Church, or 2000 years of tradition. Quite the contrary; tradition–most especially represented by His Holiness John Paul II’s encyclical Ordinatio Sacerdotalis–states that the Church doesn’t have the power to ordain women, can never ordain women, and will never ordain women. Rome has spoken. The case is closed.

-ACEGC

And has absolutely nothing to do with child altar servers, who are in no way “instituted acolytes” and are not in any sense of the word “ordained” - they are lay workers in the Church, assisting the priest in his ministry, as we are all called to do by virtue of our Baptism.

 

[edward_george]

And has absolutely nothing to do with child altar servers, who are in no way “instituted acolytes” and are not in any sense of the word “ordained” - they are lay workers in the Church, assisting the priest in his ministry, as we are all called to do by virtue of our Baptism.

I was replying to an earlier statement by the poster whom I quoted. Apologies for disrupting the thread.

-ACEGC

 

[Brendan]

And has absolutely nothing to do with child altar servers, who are in no way “instituted acolytes” and are not in any sense of the word “ordained” - they are lay workers in the Church, assisting the priest in his ministry, as we are all called to do by virtue of our Baptism.

This is what you said

Only with regard to the Sacrament of Holy Orders, in which the participant is in persona Christi - that is, among other things, he becomes an icon of Christ.

In everything else, there is neither male nor female, we are all baptized equally into Christ, and we are equally responsible for assisting our priests in spreading the Gospel.

I was pointing out that even in lay roles, there still remains a difference.

Do you disagree?

 

[Formosus]

You’re kidding around, right?
You don’t HONESTLY think that female recruiters cannot get guys to join the Marines!

We’ll regain our pre-vatican two numbers to the priesthood as soon as priests are allowed to marry.
And that’s coming very soon.

Hmm did the pre vatican II times have a need of a married clergy? No. The decline in numbers of priests is due to worldliness of the faithful and unorthodoxy. Relgious orders and dioceses that have good faithful orthodox teaching have no vocations crisis. Molding the Church to the world will not fix the Church, instead it only worsens the problem. And also, no its not comming very soon. Didn’t you read? The Pope recently re affirmed a celibate clergy. Married clergy doesn’t even work to stem the lack of vocations in non-catholic ecclesial communities that do have married ministers and pastors. Simply re affirming that the problem is not the Church’s discipline, but the worldiness and unorthodoxy of our modern times. How many times does the Pope have to say no for you to get that its not going to happen any time soon and God willing never in the Latin Church.

 

[jmcrae]

I was pointing out that even in lay roles, there still remains a difference.

Do you disagree?

Insituted Acolytes and Lectors are ordained to that role, are they not? Less than a year ago, I attended the Ordination of a Lector at our Cathedral. Granted, they don’t take a vow of celibacy, and I don’t recall specifically a vow of obedience, but it’s still a type of Ordination, and part of Seminary training towards the priesthood. (Non-seminarians could also be ordained as permanent Acolytes or permanent Lectors, but it isn’t normally done - the Ordination I attended was of a 2nd year Seminarian.)

 

[Brendan]

Insituted Acolytes and Lectors are ordained to that role, are they not?

Nope. Pope Paul VI eliminated the clerical office of Sub-Deacon in favor of the lay, non ordained ministry of Acolyte.

Because this is a lay role, they are no longer ordained to the role, but rather Instituted or Installed

Less than a year ago, I attended the Ordination of a Lector at our Cathedral. Granted, they don’t take a vow of celibacy, and I don’t recall specifically a vow of obedience, but it’s still a type of Ordination, and part of Seminary training towards the priesthood. (Non-seminarians could also be ordained as permanent Acolytes or permanent Lectors, but it isn’t normally done - the Ordination I attended was of a 2nd year Seminarian.)

Nope it wasn’t an ordination,but an Institution. The recipient does not enter into the clerical state.

From Pope Paul VI’s Moto Proprio MINISTERIA QUAEDAM

It is in accordance with the reality itself and with the contemporary outlook that the above-mentioned ministries should no longer be called minor orders; their conferral will not be called ordination, but institution

.

This is the very document that established the ministries of Acolyte and Reader.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

We’ll regain our pre-vatican two numbers to the priesthood as soon as priests are allowed to marry.
And that’s coming very soon.

The Vatican recently reaffirmed the value of clerical celibacy so I think priests being allowed to marry has a fat chance in hell.

Nope. Pope Paul VI eliminated the clerical office of Sub-Deacon in favor of the lay, non ordained ministry of Acolyte.

I’m pretty sure that the instituted acolyte doesn’t replace the subdeaconate as there is no real equivalent for subdeacon today.

In everything else, there is neither male nor female, we are all baptized equally into Christ, and we are equally responsible for assisting our priests in spreading the Gospel. There is no good reason for half the population of able-bodied workers to stand all the day idle, as long as there is work to be done in the vineyard of the Lord.

So, where in 2000 some odd years of tradition is there practice to back this up? Women didn’t serve at the altar for all this time, men to that. Women can do other things, and we have all the examples of great women saints that prove this. The convents are practically empty, seems that there is a whole lot of work to be done in the realm of women that isn’t getting done. Women and men have different roles to preform even though they are equal in dignity.

 

[Brendan]

I’m pretty sure that the instituted acolyte doesn’t replace the subdeaconate as there is no real equivalent for subdeacon today.

FYI,

Also from MINISTERIA QUAEDAM

Two ministries, adapted to present-day needs, are to be preserved in the whole Latin Church, namely, those of reader and acolyte. The functions heretofore assigned to the subdeacon are entrusted to the reader and the acolyte; consequently, the major order of subdiaconate no longer exists in the Latin Church. **There is, however, no reason why the acolyte cannot be called a subdeacon **in some places, at the discretion of the conference of bishops.

The USCCB has elected to call the role “Acolyte” but it could also be refered to by the name “Sub Deacon” if a bishop’s conference so decided.