What's Your Authority?

[Randy_Carson]

what that tells me is that church that invented Purgatory got off track somewhere just as several other churches in the NT.

Rejecting the inspiration and canonicity of II Maccabees does not negate its historical value. Maccabees aids us in knowing, purely from an historical perspective at the very least, the Jews believed in praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the advent of Christ. This is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. And it is in this context Jesus declares in the New Testament:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32).

This declaration of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life to a people who already believed it. If Jesus wanted to condemn this teaching commonly taught in Israel, he was not doing a very good job of it according to St. Matthew’s Gospel.

The next objection presents a more complex problem. The punishment for mortal sin is, in fact, definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed in Hell according to Catholic teaching (see CCC 1030). But it is a non-sequitur to conclude from this teaching that II Maccabees could not be referring to a type of Purgatory.

First of all, a careful reading of the text reveals the sin of these men to be carrying small amulets “or sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia” under their tunics as they were going in to battle. This would be closer to a Christian baseball player believing there is some kind of power in his performing superstitious rituals before going to bat than it would be to the mortal sin of idolatry. This was, most likely, a venial sin for them. But even if what they did would have been objectively grave matter, good Jews in ancient times—just like good Catholics today—believed they should always pray for the souls of those who have died “for thou [O Lord], thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men” (II Chr. 6:30). God alone knows the degree of culpability of these “sinners.” Moreover, some or all of them may have repented before they died. Both Jews and Catholic Christians always retain hope for the salvation of the deceased this side of heaven; thus, we always pray for those who have died.

A Plainer Text

In Matthew 5:24-25, Jesus is even more explicit about Purgatory:

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26).

For Catholics, Tertullian for example, in De Anima 58, written in ca. AD 208, this teaching is parabolic, using the well-known example of “prison” and the necessary penitence it represents, as a metaphor for Purgatorial suffering that will be required for lesser transgressions, represented by the “kodrantes” or “penny” of verse 26. But for many Protestants, our Lord is here giving simple instructions to his followers concerning this life exclusively. This has nothing to do with Purgatory.

This traditional Protestant interpretation is very weak contextually. These verses are found in the midst of the famous “Sermon on the Mount,” where our Lord teaches about heaven (vs. 20), hell (vs. 29-30), and both mortal (vs. 22) and venial sins (vs. 19), in a context that presents “the Kingdom of Heaven” as the ultimate goal (see verses 3-12). Our Lord goes on to say if you do not love your enemies, “what reward have you” (verse 46)? And he makes very clear these “rewards” are not of this world. They are “rewards from your Father who is in heaven” (6:1) or “treasures in heaven” (6:19).

Further, as St. John points out in John 20:31, all Scripture is written “that believing, you may have [eternal] life in his name.” Scripture must always be viewed in the context of our full realization of the divine life in the world to come. Our present life is presented “as a vapor which appears for a little while, and afterwards shall vanish away” (James 1:17). It would seem odd to see the deeper and even “other worldly” emphasis throughout the Sermon of the Mount, excepting these two verses.

When we add to this the fact that the Greek word for prison, phulake, is the same word used by St. Peter, in I Peter 3:19, to describe the “holding place” into which Jesus descended after his death to liberate the detained spirits of Old Testament believers, the Catholic position makes even more sense. Phulake is demonstrably used in the New Testament to refer to a temporary holding place and not exclusively in this life.

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Plainest Text

I Corinthians 3:11-15 may well be the most straightforward text in all of Sacred Scripture when it comes to Purgatory:

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

No Christian sect even attempts to deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be tested after death. It says our works will go through “fire,” figuratively speaking. In Scripture, “fire” is used metaphorically in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mal. 3:2-3; Matt. 3:11; Mark 9:49); and as that which consumes (Matt. 3:12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God’s judgment. Some of the “works” represented are being burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn according to their essential “quality” (Gr. hopoiov - of what sort).

What is being referred to cannot be heaven because there are imperfections that need to be “burned up” (see again, Rev. 21:27, Hab. 1:13). It cannot be hell because souls are being saved. So what is it? The Protestant calls it “the Judgment” and we Catholics agree. We Catholics simply specify the part of the judgment of the saved where imperfections are purged as “Purgatory.”

 

[eazyduzit]

From my perspective its not so much about authority as RELATIONSHIP.

Relationship is very important and I am not trying to discount that. However, there are differences among Christians, and those differences cannot be swept under the rug. Jesus prayed that “they all be one.” (John 17:21) The idea that different communities teaching contradictory things is ok goes against what Jesus prayed for. Jesus established a Church, the Catholic Church. History backs this up, no matter how hard some try to revise it. Jesus gave His Church real authority, as I’ve shown you from scripture in previous posts. Sidestepping the issue of authority, which you are clearly doing in your failure to answer my question, won’t help you.

(I might also add that Catholics should not make their Tradition an idol, but that is not my place.) Interpretation comes by degrees and gradually we see more.

Catholics don’t, “make their Tradition their idol.” That claim is baseless.

I am going to stay with the Bible and ask God for wisdom.

And may His infinite wisdom lead you into full communion with the Church.

I’m also for Christian unity, because Jesus prayed for it, but He also said to let the wheat grow up with the tares. In times of crisis or tribulation, true faith will become evident. I am not seeing the issue of authority as something that stands out in scripture. Rather, Paul commonly advises “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another”. Col.3:16

 

[campeador]

I’m also for Christian unity, because Jesus prayed for it, but He also said to let the wheat grow up with the tares. In times of crisis or tribulation, true faith will become evident. I am not seeing the issue of authority as something that stands out in scripture. Rather, Paul commonly advises “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another”. Col.3:16

there are a number of instances where scripture speaks to a religious authority we ought to obey. For example, Matthew 23- Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example.”

 

[eazyduzit]

there are a number of instances where scripture speaks to a religious authority we ought to obey. For example, Matthew 23- Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example.”

You have to consider the whole paricope. Jesus continued to say, “For they bind heavy burdens…” He was only saying this for the sake of appearance, for He says in v.8, “Be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and ALL YE ARE BRETHREN”. Thus no one is to be singled out as the authority. And yes, He was saying this to the disciples(v.1).

 

[pablope]

I’m also for Christian unity, because Jesus prayed for it, but He also said to let the wheat grow up with the tares. In times of crisis or tribulation, true faith will become evident. I am not seeing the issue of authority as something that stands out in scripture. Rather, Paul commonly advises “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another”. Col.3:16

really?

From Rom 10:15:

And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

So Eazy…if there is no authority…who was doing the sending since the time of the Apostles? after the apostles…who should do the sending as called for in this passage?

And in 1john4:6:

6 We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

So…who is the “us” that John is referring to in this passge? Is just anybody else? Or he is referring to an authority in the Church?

 

[eazyduzit]

The Plainest Text

I Corinthians 3:11-15 may well be the most straightforward text in all of Sacred Scripture when it comes to Purgatory:

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubbleeach man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

No Christian sect even attempts to deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be tested after death. It says our works will go through “fire,” figuratively speaking. In Scripture, “fire” is used metaphorically in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mal. 3:2-3; Matt. 3:11; Mark 9:49); and as that which consumes (Matt. 3:12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God’s judgment. Some of the “works” represented are being burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn according to their essential “quality” (Gr. hopoiov - of what sort).

What is being referred to cannot be heaven because there are imperfections that need to be “burned up” (see again, Rev. 21:27, Hab. 1:13). It cannot be hell because souls are being saved. So what is it? The Protestant calls it “the Judgment” and we Catholics agree. We Catholics simply specify the part of the judgment of the saved where imperfections are purged as “Purgatory.”

I checked the CCC on this one. It quotes the phrase “freed from their sins”, so are we talking about sins or works? They are not the same thing. Sins prevent one from entering heaven, works do not. Secondly, this judgement occurs at the time of second coming, which is what “the Day” refers to, as in “The Day of the Lord”. According to the CCC Purgatory exists right now, in this age, and not in the next, so by the time of this judgement, Purgatory will cease to exist according to Church teaching.

This is a clear contradiction.

 

[campeador]

You have to consider the whole paricope. Jesus continued to say, “For they bind heavy burdens…” He was only saying this for the sake of appearance, for He says in v.8, “Be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and ALL YE ARE BRETHREN”. Thus no one is to be singled out as the authority. And yes, He was saying this to the disciples(v.1).

Jesus would never deliberately deceive anyone ‘for the sake of appearance’. Matt 5:37:

Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one.

 

[KjetilK]

What’s Your Authority?

My bishop, and his episcopal colleges, who are the servant(s) of Scripture and Tradition.

 

[campeador]

Again from Paul, Hebrews 13:

17 Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

 

[Randy_Carson]

My bishop, and his episcopal colleges, who are the servant(s) of Scripture and Tradition.

I may have asked you this before, but as we have seen, sometimes I forget things that I have read in these threads…

Has the Catholic Church (based in Rome and currently led by Pope Francis) ever made a determination concerning the validity of the ordinations of priests in the Lutheran Church of Norway?

 

[Chong]

Where does the Bible teach the doctrine of sola scriptura?

Are you clear on the difference between tradition(s) and Tradition?

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
“I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”

CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN

ARTICLE 2
THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION

74 God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”:29 that is, of Christ Jesus.30 Christ must be proclaimed to all nations and individuals, so that this revelation may reach to the ends of the earth:

God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout the ages, and be transmitted to all generations.31

I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
• in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34

. . . continued in apostolic succession

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39

**II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43**
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#I

Hallo Randy,
I’ve been looking for this post and I have found it.

The transmission of divine revelation, we agree is in both oral and written form.
Even Jesus transmitted the gospel orally. There may also be another mode of apprenticeship, whereby one learns by associating with another for a long time.

However, we know the history too well. Most of the converts were formerly pagans, and without proper checks on the oral traditions, there could be infiltration of bad elements. This calls for a written canon of the fundamental teachings of Christianity to avoids wrong teachings.
When I read the Bible, I just marvel at the extent of perverted gospels during the time of the apostles: I’ll list a few.
1Tim:1:3: As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou might charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Tim:4:1: Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1John:2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1John:2:18: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come…

Lack of written code is a open ground for lies and half truths.
In as much as tradition would be acceptable, it should be in subjection to the written words. Anything that is contrary should be analyzed farther with the Word of God.

 

[Chong]

Okay Salvation come from Christ, we all agree here, and when we are baptized we are baptized for the forgiveness of sins, slate wiped clean.

I disagree. Baptism does not cleanse sins. Public Baptism started with John the Baptist who also baptized Jesus. I wonder if John himself was baptized.
John the Baptist, performed a baptism in preparation of the Messiah. He narrated to the people what was required of them after baptism, ie a changed lifestyle.
On the contrary, we are forgiven by:

1. Believing in Jesus as the savior
2. Confessing our sins to God
3. Turning away from sin
   Baptism follows as an outward reflection of what takes place inward.

Examples:
The thief on the cross believed in Jesus and confessed, and he was promised eternal life.
Zachaeus the short man believed in Jesus and his sins were forgiven.
The woman who poured oil on Jesus feet had her sins forgiven
All there received the forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus not through baptism. The list is long.

Now what about the sins we commit after our baptism? Is that not the reason Jesus left us the Church?

Christ promised to be with the church throughout the ages. His presence is in the form of the Holy Spirit which guides the church (and individual believers). I say individual believers because sin confronts an individual. Example, if one is stealing, the temptation is on him and not on the whole church.

The desire for Christ is that we don’t sin any more after being forgiven. But if we sin for the weakness of the body, we should repent immediately.

Without the Sacraments how do we acquire eternal life? And what if you don’t have all 7?
Christ gave us 7 Sacraments did he not?

Christ commanded us to do only 2 practices:

1. Baptize those who believe
2. The Lord’s table in memory of Him

The other 5 are not direct commands of Jesus.
Christ’s main objective is that people believe in him and obtain righteousness. The sacraments are good but are not a substitute to Christ.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hallo Randy,
I’ve been looking for this post and I have found it.

The transmission of divine revelation, we agree is in both oral and written form.
Even Jesus transmitted the gospel orally. There may also be another mode of apprenticeship, whereby one learns by associating with another for a long time.

However, we know the history too well. Most of the converts were formerly pagans, and without proper checks on the oral traditions, there could be infiltration of bad elements. This calls for a written canon of the fundamental teachings of Christianity to avoids wrong teachings.
When I read the Bible, I just marvel at the extent of perverted gospels during the time of the apostles: I’ll list a few.
1Tim:1:3: As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou might charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Tim:4:1: Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1John:2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1John:2:18: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come…

Lack of written code is a open ground for lies and half truths.
In as much as tradition would be acceptable, it should be in subjection to the written words. Anything that is contrary should be analyzed farther with the Word of God.

Isn’t it curious how Protestants all claim that they do not need the infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church because they themselves are led by the Spirit into all truth? And they do this in spite of the obvious evidence that they disagree from one denomination to the next over matters such as infant baptism.

But then they turn right around and declare that the Catholic Church, built by Christ upon Peter the rock, could not POSSIBLY have been protected from the same errors that they believe they are protected from.

 

[JMM1957]

I checked the CCC on this one. It quotes the phrase “freed from their sins”, so are we talking about sins or works? They are not the same thing. Sins prevent one from entering heaven, works do not. Secondly, this judgement occurs at the time of second coming, which is what “the Day” refers to, as in “The Day of the Lord”. According to the CCC Purgatory exists right now, in this age, and not in the next, so by the time of this judgement, Purgatory will cease to exist according to Church teaching.

This is a clear contradiction.

Please give references to the CCC, you are not proving anything by giving your own opinion here.

 

[KjetilK]

I may have asked you this before, but as we have seen, sometimes I forget things that I have read in these threads…

Has the Catholic Church (based in Rome and currently led by Pope Francis) ever made a determination concerning the validity of the ordinations of priests in the Lutheran Church of Norway?

No, not to my recollection.

 

[JMM1957]

Lack of written code is a open ground for lies and half truths.
In as much as tradition would be acceptable, it should be in subjection to the written words. Anything that is contrary should be analyzed farther with the Word of God.

Rather than putting your own interpretation on where Tradition stands in relation to Scripture, why not read this and believe, 2 Thess. 2;15. If you need more proof I would be more than happy to supply it.

 

[JMM1957]

Please give references to the CCC, you are not proving anything by giving your own opinion here.

I took the time to look it up in the CCC myself, and I don’t see anything that corresponds to what you are claiming. The CCC clearly states in section 1030-1032 that the time of Purgatory exists after death.

 

[Ron_Obvious]

Isn’t it curious how Protestants all claim that they do not need the infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church because they themselves are led by the Spirit into all truth? And they do this in spite of the obvious evidence that they disagree from one denomination to the next over matters such as infant baptism.

But then they turn right around and declare that the Catholic Church, built by Christ upon Peter the rock, could not POSSIBLY have been protected from the same errors that they believe they are protected from.

Curious, indeed! Curious also how they believe 1 Tim 4:1 applies to Catholics and never themselves.

I have asked eazyduzit questions multiple times on the issue of authority, and he has done nothing but deflect the issue, saying he is, “not seeing the issue of authority as something that stands out in scripture”. Little does he realize (or maybe he does and just refuses to admit it) that the second he interprets scripture and uses his interpretation to declare the Catholic Church as “off track”, he is making himself the authority. I firmly believe that when one becomes intellectually honest about this (with a little help from the Holy Spirit), the journey home usually begins.

 

[JMM1957]

Curious, indeed! Curious also how they believe 1 Tim 4:1 applies to Catholics and never themselves.

I have asked eazyduzit questions multiple times on the issue of authority, and he has done nothing but deflect the issue, saying he is, “not seeing the issue of authority as something that stands out in scripture”. Little does he realize (or maybe he does and just refuses to admit it) that the second he interprets scripture and uses his interpretation to declare the Catholic Church as “off track”, he is making himself the authority. I firmly believe that when one becomes intellectually honest about this (with a little help from the Holy Spirit), the journey home usually begins.

Of course, no Christian church wants to have 1 Tim. 4;1 pointed at them. everyone wants to be on the right side of scripture and teaching. Not seeing the issue of authority as something that stands out in scripture is the result of stubbornly refusing to take the blinders off for fear that it may lead to an uncertainty about what you have believed up to this point. I understand that some outside the Catholic church will accept some apostolic authority that was present during the apostles lifetime, but then after the death of the last apostle it ceased to be an issue because at that point the Holy Spirit took over the church to guide each individual in a personal way, be it an invisible church as some profess, or not. The substance of 1 Cor. 1:10 is worth doing a good amount of reflecting on for those who think authority over teachings is not an issue.