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eazyduzit
Guest
Scripture is not wrong. Water can not wash away even the smallest sin. Only the blood of Jesus.
Rm.3:25 through faith in His blood
Rm.5:9 we are justified by His blood
Eph.1:7 we have forgiveness through His blood
Heb.9:22 without the shedding of blood is no remission
1Pt.1:18,19 redeemed with… the precious blood of Christ
If water could do the job, then Jesus died needlessly.
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eazyduzit
Guest
The NT is full of warning about false teachers and wolves in sheep’s clothing. Jesus, Peter, Paul, John all constantly speak of it. No church is immune, yet Jesus said to let the tares grow with the wheat. I know there are Pentecostal preachers who have a money machine going that is not of God. But the Lord will deal with it and He will do much better than we can.
As I have said before, it is the “fear of the Lord” that will bring me home safely.
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eazyduzit
Guest
Indeed, I agree that these Jewish histories are valuable as such, except for the goofy stuff like Bel and the Dragon. But for me, I would not make use of them to formulate basic doctrines. You say that the sin of the soldiers was only a slight sin. Just a little lucky charm. Yet you failed to mention or notice that they all died because God himself killed them. Does this speak of small or slight sins? Really, is this the way Catholics interpret scripture? Can you show anywhere that God will kill as a response to a slight sin? I’m different than you bro. In my book, this speaks of ultimate seriousness. Not about a small imperfection. Thus, this passage cannot be speaking of a Purgatory as defined by the Catholic Church.
Now let’s look at your proof from Mt. 12. Jesus here says that the ultimate sin, denying the Holy Spirit, cannot be forgiven in this age or the next, it must mean that there are at least some small sins that can be forgiven in the age to come . I must remember to use this method of interpretation. Now I can make the bible say just about anything I want. But seriously, this still is not working for you because the Catholic Encyclopedia says that Purgatory will not exist in the next age. (Sec. IV. Duration) when it will end- “but all of them (punishments) before that last and strictest judgement”.
Now you want to use 1Cor.3:15- as a proof text, but here we are speaking only of “works”, not sins as in your other citations. Please decide which one applies to Purgatory before we can continue with this.
Thanks, Eazy
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JMM1957
Guest
I would be careful to not be too hasty in assuming that only the “works” of a person is being talked about here. If you look at the entire contents of what is being said by Paul, you can see that what he is referring to is how a person builds on “the” foundation that Paul or a co-worker lays. The foundation is Jesus Christ. What a person builds on the foundation is a “building” (verse 9) obviously. The building is not just “works”, but the entire person, both your “faith and works”. When Paul speaks of “the work of each will come to light” (verse13) he is not talking specically of “works” (good deeds) but the whole of what a person has done with what they have been given. Another way Paul puts it is to say ministers, such as he or another, plants and waters, and growth occurs in the person by God. That growth is not only the “works” of the person but everything that they have built on the foundation originally layed for them. The sins of the person are part of the person and will come to light on the Day.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
It’s not that mere water takes away sin; otherwise, anyone who has ever taken a bath or gone for a swim would be forgiven of all their sins. No, it is that through the waters of initiation into the faith, we are baptized INTO CHRIST that is salvific.
Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.
We are baptized INTO Christ through water baptism, and scripture says:
Galatians 3
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Romans 6:3-8
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
The NT is also full of warning and admonitions about remaining obedient to the leaders of the Church which have been established by God. There are NO verses which tell you to go it alone in order to avoid the possibility of encountering false teachers and wolves.
Those Pentecostal preachers that you speak of may be just as confident that they are actually doing the Lord’s will as you are. Self-delusion is a treacherous thing.
We are brought home most safely by remaining aboard the barque of Peter captained by the God-ordained head of the Church, Pope Francis.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Maccabees is not used to formulate a basic doctrine like Purgatory. However, it does provide historical evidence that belief in a state like Purgatory was common in Jesus’ day. If that belief was erroneous, Jesus did not correct that error; however, He did speak directly to other issues such as the allowances for divorce. Thus, it appears that Jesus let the idea of Purgatory stand.
Some of the things (or works) that we do in this life are good and some are sinful. God will judge all that we have done, and those things that are good will be refined in the fire while the bad things that we have done will be burned away. Thus, the man passing through the refiners’ fire will be purified of all dross so that he may stand before God without imperfection.
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Erich
Guest
So, if Scripture is not wrong, then it’s your fallible interpretation which must be wrong.
In Acts 2 we read,
What were the Jews asking in verse 37? They were asking to be told what they must do in order to have their sins forgiven. Clearly, in spite of the fact that they were already believers in Jesus at the time they asked their question, they were still in their sins (thus disproving the idea that we are saved at the point of faith).
And what did Peter tell them to do? Did he say, “Since you are already believers, you have nothing to do, you are already saved”? No. *He told them to be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. *So, water can (and does) wash away sin.
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JMM1957
Guest
I wanted to clarify something earlier just to be sure there was no misunderstanding, in my last sentence above I did not mean to imply that all our sins remain with us until death, but the ultimate purification from past sin, before our heavenly reward is bestowed on us, is accomplished through what we call Purgatory. We do not know the time frame of Purgatory, it could occur in an instant at the Judgement, we just do not know exactly. The church came up with the term Purgatory to define that period of time or moment when this occurs, in order that we can give an explanation to those who should ask.
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JMM1957
Guest
Matthew 21:25
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JMM1957
Guest
In the parable the good seeds were sown first (Apostles and their successors), then the weeds appeared (false teachers).
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pablope
Guest
And this is precisely why…St. Paul was led by the HS to go to Jerusalem and submit his gospel…Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.
And John writes how to know who is from God and who is not:
1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
And who is sent properly to preach:
Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]
By the example of St. Paul:
Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
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LionHeart777
Guest
Eazy,
Since the topic of Purgatory has come up again, I would like to point you (or anyone else who feels like answering) back to my post # 332.
I don’t believe that I received a response to this post from anyone who denies the existence of Purgatory. Like I said, I know you have a lot of people with whom you are interacting. However, if you (or someone else) would like to think it through out loud here, I think you might be surprised to find that you do indeed have a concept of a post mortem purification; albeit, maybe not identical to our doctrine of Purgatory.
So if anyone would look back to my “Johnny” from that post and answer, or answer the following questions, I feel it could be of benefit.
Here are 3 questions:
1.) Do you believe that most Christians are still sinning at the end of their lives or that they still have attachments to sins at the end of their lives?
2.) Do you believe there will be any Christian in Heaven who is still sinning or who has attachments to sin?
3.) If you answered yes to 1, and no to 2, how do you explain this? What happens after death to those people who fall into 1 above so that 2 can be true?
Thanks,
Nick
Since the topic of Purgatory has come up again, I would like to point you (or anyone else who feels like answering) back to my post # 332.
I don’t believe that I received a response to this post from anyone who denies the existence of Purgatory. Like I said, I know you have a lot of people with whom you are interacting. However, if you (or someone else) would like to think it through out loud here, I think you might be surprised to find that you do indeed have a concept of a post mortem purification; albeit, maybe not identical to our doctrine of Purgatory.
So if anyone would look back to my “Johnny” from that post and answer, or answer the following questions, I feel it could be of benefit.
Here are 3 questions:
1.) Do you believe that most Christians are still sinning at the end of their lives or that they still have attachments to sins at the end of their lives?
2.) Do you believe there will be any Christian in Heaven who is still sinning or who has attachments to sin?
3.) If you answered yes to 1, and no to 2, how do you explain this? What happens after death to those people who fall into 1 above so that 2 can be true?
Thanks,
Nick
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Randy_Carson
Guest
John 3:22
After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.
John 4:1-2
Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.
Why did Jesus and his disciples baptize?
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eazyduzit
Guest
I am not trying to make my own interpretation but just read what the scripture says. You are not. You ignored the word “repent”. It is a part of the equation. If you do not factor in all the parts in an equation, you will get a false result.
Repentance is the message. John the Baptist said, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”.
2Pt3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise… not wiling that any should perish, but that all should come to REPENTANCE”. (not baptism)
Lk.13:3 “except ye REPENT, ye shall all likewise perish”.
Notice the use of the word "perish"in both verses. One must either repent or perish. You will not find anywhere, “be baptised or perish”.
John5:24 says, “He that hearth my word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life”.
This says says that he who “hears” and “believes” (repents) already has everlasting life.(salvation)
So, you fail to convince.
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FathersKnowBest
Guest
Interesting assertion. But you’ve failed to provide any explanation for even one of the citations provided being in the Bible if your assertion is correct.
False dichotomy.
Christ’s sacrifice is applied to us through God’s grace alone, by the means He has prescribed.
Just as in the OT: only God could miraculously cure Leprosy.
Check out 2Kings 5.
The water was the MEANS by which God cured Naaman.
It’s not the water doing the job; it’s the following of Jesus’ command.
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Erich
Guest
You don’t have to take my word for it… The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation in John 3:5.
And Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, “Baptism now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21),
Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), “We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”
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Erich
Guest
Interesting that you should say that. As a good Pentecostal I presume you believe the following (among other things):
- Justification by faith alone
- Scripture Alone as the sole authority
- purification after death
- the saints in Heaven can pray for us
If Scripture Alone were the sole authority, don’t you think that Scripture would say so?
If there is no purification after death, then how do you answer these three questions:
Finally, we see in Rev. 5:8 that the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. Yes, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James.5:16).
Indeed.
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Ron_Obvious
Guest
**Interesting, eazy. There are countless denominations and faith communities out there that are doing just that, they “read what scripture says.” Interesting how many of them arrive at different, contradictory conclusions to the meaning behind, “what scripture says” on countless issues.
Eazy, every time you and the rest of our protestant breathren, “read what scripture says,” and come to different, contradictory interpretations on baptism (for example), whose right? By what authority do you declare them right? Like this thread was suppose to be about, it all comes down to authority. Where do you get your authority to authentically interpret the scriptures, eazy (because that is what you are doing, despite your denial above) ? Do you have a divine mandate to tell anyone their interpretation is wrong? I don’t expect an answer to this because you’ve been ducking the issue of authority, understandably. **
BTW, the issue of authority is addressed in scripture despite your failure (or unwillingness) to see it, as myself and other posters have alluded to.
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