What's Your Authority?

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Okay Salvation come from Christ, we all agree here, and when we are baptized we are baptized for the forgiveness of sins, slate wiped clean.

Now what about the sins we commit after our baptism? Is that not the reason Jesus left us the Church?

Without the Sacraments how do we acquire eternal life? And what if you don’t have all 7?

Christ gave us 7 Sacraments did he not?
 
Christ gave us 7 Sacraments did he not?
I don’t know, did he? 😉 you have to know by now what I’m going to ask for. I also know what you’re gonna give me and you also know what I’m going to say about it and I also know how you will refute what I say. Fun times! 😃
 
Absolutely not. Don’t forget, I don’t agree with including the apocryphal books in the Bible; he did. The point I was illustrating is that if the Magisterium has the Authority of God, then why was it not that way from the beginning? why the fickle nature of the canon up until the 16th century? I would think that if Jesus established his perfect Catholic Church, then he would have pushed the Apostles to established a better system, you know, one that could make divinely-inspired decisions in a timely manner instead of poking around for 1200 years to finally establish which books belong in the Bible. That’s kind of important and 1200 years is a looooong time.
Why do you say Jesus established a perfect Catholic Church? I haven’t seen anyone here claim that. His Church is both human and divine. It is made up of us sinful humans, but guided by the HS. The human part sometimes has a hard time listening to & keeping up with the divine part.

I pose the a similar question to you… Why did it take over 1600 years (and more for the AOG) for someone to come along and get it right or correct the erring CC?
He built the Church by bringing people their salvation. Those that believe in their salvation through his blood are immediately inducted into the Church…
:

He also built the Church by reestablishing and fulfilling the Davidic Kingdom (Lk 1:32). His Church made authoritative decisions (Acts 15).
So long as there are believers, those believers are not overcome by the gates of Hell; therefore, his Church has not “failed.”
Are you suggesting that Jesus established a solely invisible church that many within disagree on the very essentials of what He taught, even though he prayed for us to be one and St. Paul said we should be one in all things (Eph 4:3-6, Phil 2:2), with no recourse to an authority to settle matters (Mt 18:17)? If that is what you are suggesting… its not very biblical.
Time is of no consequence to that which created it.
He created us and put us within time. So, time is of consequence to us, no?
And He still is. Jesus lives within me and I am part of the Church. So are you, so are all believers on this forum. Therefore I agree. He is with his Church and Hell has not prevailed! Hallelujah! :extrahappy:.
👍
Hey, you say the Catholic Church and I say Scripture.:.
You say either Scripture or the Church. I say BOTH Scripture, AND The Church Jesus founded. 😉
You say ‘mustard plant’ and I say ‘mustard seed’ 😉
:confused: I’ll speak for myself, thank you. I say both the mustard plant, and the mustard seed. Who am I to refuse any gift God has given me… be it His Church, Sacred Tradition, or Sacred Scripture. If you want to pick and choose which of God’s gifts you accept & reject,t that’s on you. Speaking for myself, I will accept all that the Lord has given. 😃 What is hard to accept, I will workout with fear and trembling.
 
If you want to pick and choose which of God’s gifts you accept & reject,t that’s on you. Speaking for myself, I will accept all that the Lord has given. 😃 What is hard to accept, I will workout with fear and trembling.
I accept those things too, I just define the Church differently than you.
 
Ditto, brother 😉
I am sorry if I have come off that way. I have no right to make such a judgment. Please, show me the text in which I have done so and I will recant it. While we can disagree on doctrine, authority, and other teachings. It is never appropriate to question the sincerity of another’s faith.
 
I am sorry if I have come off that way. I have no right to make such a judgment. Please, show me the text in which I have done so and I will recant it. While we can disagree on doctrine, authority, and other teachings. It is never appropriate to question the sincerity of another’s faith.
I didn’t see it as judgment on my part. I was illustrating in my own way that the pope has authority as a shepherd, but not ultimate authority. Catholics obey the command and teachings of the pope as they attribute the Authority of God to him. I put no man before Jesus As head of the Church, therefore my knee is already bent. If that came across as judging your faith, then I apologize and humbly seek your forgiveness.
 
I didn’t see it as judgment on my part. I was illustrating in my own way that the pope has authority as a shepherd, but not ultimate authority. Catholics obey the command and teachings of the pope as they attribute the Authority of God to him. I put no man before Jesus As head of the Church, therefore my knee is already bent. If that came across as judging your faith, then I apologize and humbly seek your forgiveness.
No Catholic puts the Pope before Jesus, not even the Pope himself.
 
I didn’t see it as judgment on my part I was illustrating in my own way .
I can see it in that light, as meant to make a point but no intention to judge. 🙂
that the pope has authority as a shepherd, but not ultimate authority. Catholics obey the command and teachings of the pope as they attribute the Authority of God to him. I put no man before Jesus As head of the Church, therefore my knee is already bent.
The only authority the pope has is that which Christ gave to him. He can not create new teachings or change what the Lord deposited in the Church. He is not before Christ or even equal too Him.
If that came across as judging your faith, then I apologize and humbly seek your forgiveness.
No worries. 👍 I may have been a little quick to jump to conclusions. I am enjoying our exchange very much; and look forward to more of it.
 
I don’t know, did he? 😉 you have to know by now what I’m going to ask for. I also know what you’re gonna give me and you also know what I’m going to say about it and I also know how you will refute what I say. Fun times! 😃
Hold on there little buddy!😃 Not me! Remember what I am saying is the teaching of the Church, whose authority we are promised comes from God.

But remember all you are going to do is refute me, but on your own authority, you have to remember that.

See here is something you have to remember in this site, we must have the teachings of the Church to back us up, or we have to admit, we have no authority.

Now can we speak for the Church and be wrong? Oh yeah, and trust me if Protestants don’t correct us, Catholic’s will!😃
 
The RCC is definitely included in the Church, but so are all the other non-Catholics that accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
The question really isn’t who is in “the church” and who is not. A person can accept Christ and be baptized into the mystical body of Christ and yet lose salvation! Thus the real question is “who has living faith,” the type of supernatural faith that will take you to heaven!

This is a critical distinction, and I think you would be extremely surprised to learn the true answer, which is given by St. Thomas Aquinas when he asks, “Whether a man who disbelieves one article of faith, can have lifeless faith in the other articles?”

His conclusion: Nope. Faith is IMPOSSIBLE unless a person assents to the entire deposit of faith as taught by an infallible authority.

See II-II, Q.5, article 3.

My dear friend, a person’s opinions will not merit eternal life, even if those opinions very much resemble the truths of the Catholic Faith. Even if you say, “Lord, Lord,” I believe in you!
 
Yes, I know, and now I feel terrible. No man is perfect, myself included and I will face that judgment eventually, even though God knows it was not my intention to offend. But I thank you for your forgiveness 🙂

But, back to what I was trying to illustrate, it seems to me that Catholics view the pope and his bishops as being more wise and having more authority to teach since the Authority of Jesus as head of the Church translates to them. The bible says “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally.” The hierarchy of the CC seems to defy that, insofar as there are many wise teachers of the Word of God outside of the Catholic faith. This is why I say the Church is not just the CC, but the CC, AG, Lutheran, Methodists, Baptists, as “one,” just as Jesus intended.

and as Justa points out, no man is put before Jesus (to which, I know; I’m not that ignorant of any brand of faith, much less the Catholic), so then what’s the point of confession? According to Scripture, Catholics believe the clergy was charged with the Authority of Jesus to forgive sins, successive of the Apostles. Now, when Jesus breathed on them, he did not give up this power for their sake, but rather translated it to them. So, Jesus, still having this ultimate power, retains the ability to forgive as the Son of God. Why can’t I just ask Jesus since I know him personally? Could the Apostles power to forgive maybe have been intended mainly for non-believers?

Also, just a quick scenario that’s been on my mind for a couple days: say someone commits sin(s) and is driving as fast as they can to confession, but have a car accident and die immediately on the way. Does their intention save them from their iniquities? I think I remember reading something about that in the Catechism, but it might have been relating to something else.
 
If you are correct and the protestant reformers were correct. Then the Church Jesus built would have failed. And, Jesus promised it wouldn’t
I never have understood why Catholics argue with that point. Because no it would not have necessarily failed. Unless you don’t have faith Jesus has the capacity to stop by, to step in whenever He wants exactly for the reason to assure it doesn’t fail.
 
I didn’t see it as judgment on my part. I was illustrating in my own way that the pope has authority as a shepherd, but not ultimate authority. Catholics obey the command and teachings of the pope as they attribute the Authority of God to him. I put no man before Jesus As head of the Church, therefore my knee is already bent. If that came across as judging your faith, then I apologize and humbly seek your forgiveness.
The Pope does have ultimate authority here on earth, Jesus gave it to him.

How does accepting the authority that Christ gave the Pope in any way put the Pope before Jesus. The Pope is led not by human minds or human authority, he is led by the Holy Spirit.

How does a Roman Catholic obeying the Pope and his authority given to him by Christ put the Pope above God?
 
2TI.2:2 does not say “infallible people” are needed to carry it out, but only “faithful people” who (v.15) “study to show themselves approved unto God…rightly dividing the word of truth”.
In 2 Tim 3:16-17 we read, “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

So, the Scriptures are a tool for “teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” but who is to use this tool for these purposes? That is, who has the authority to teach, reproof, correct, and train others in righteousness? The “man of God” has this authority. But, who is the “man of God?”

The “man of God” is not “anyone with a Bible and the ability to read it.” A short survey of Scripture’s use of the title will reveal that this is a privileged title that cannot be simply taken upon oneself:

Moses - “This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.” (Deut. 33:1)

“Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal; and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, ‘You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me.’” (Josh. 14:6)

The Angel of the Lord - “Then the woman came and told her husband, ‘A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of the angel of God, very terrible; I did not ask him whence he was, and he did not tell me his name…’ Then Manoah entreated the LORD, and said, ‘O, LORD, I pray thee, let the man of God whom thou didst send come again to us, and teach us what we are to do with the boy that will be born.’” (Jud. 13:6, 8)

Samuel - “The servant answered Saul again, ‘Here, I have with me the fourth part of a shekel of silver, and I will give it to the man of God, to tell us our way.’” (1 Sam. 9:8)

Elijah - “And she said to Elijah, ‘What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!’” (1 Kings 17:18)

Elisha - “And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out… When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed.” (2 Kings 4:21, 32)

David - “According to the ordinance of David his father, he appointed the divisions of the priests for their service, and the Levites for their offices of praise and ministry before the priests as the duty of each day required, and the gatekeepers in their divisions for the several gates; for so David the man of God had commanded.” (2 Chr. 8:14)

St. Timothy - “But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.” (1 Tim. 6:11)

Contrary to the opinion that the “man of God” can be any Christian without distinction, Scripture itself will not allow such an interpretation, insisting that the “man of God” is a figure of authority, either commissioned by God directly through Divine Intervention (such as Moses or the Angel), or appointed by another holder of authority (such as Samuel, David, Elisha, and St. Timothy).
 
Yes, I know, and now I feel terrible. No man is perfect, myself included and I will face that judgment eventually, even though God knows it was not my intention to offend. But I thank you for your forgiveness 🙂

But, back to what I was trying to illustrate, it seems to me that Catholics view the pope and his bishops as being more wise and having more authority to teach since the Authority of Jesus as head of the Church translates to them. The bible says “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally.” The hierarchy of the CC seems to defy that, insofar as there are many wise teachers of the Word of God outside of the Catholic faith. This is why I say the Church is not just the CC, but the CC, AG, Lutheran, Methodists, Baptists, as “one,” just as Jesus intended.

and as Justa points out, no man is put before Jesus (to which, I know; I’m not that ignorant of any brand of faith, much less the Catholic), so then what’s the point of confession? According to Scripture, Catholics believe the clergy was charged with the Authority of Jesus to forgive sins, successive of the Apostles. Now, when Jesus breathed on them, he did not give up this power for their sake, but rather translated it to them. So, Jesus, still having this ultimate power, retains the ability to forgive as the Son of God. Why can’t I just ask Jesus since I know him personally? Could the Apostles power to forgive maybe have been intended mainly for non-believers?

Also, just a quick scenario that’s been on my mind for a couple days: say someone commits sin(s) and is driving as fast as they can to confession, but have a car accident and die immediately on the way. Does their intention save them from their iniquities? I think I remember reading something about that in the Catechism, but it might have been relating to something else.
We do believe the Pope and Bishops have wisdom and are wiser because by the laying of hands they are given the gift of the Holy Spirit to preach and teach the good news and define scripture.

The bible indeed says we are to ask for wisdom, but it also says we are all given different gifts from God. For the Pope and Bishops etc it is to teach and preach the word of God, to forgive sins in his name, to baptize, to anoint the sick, to marry people, etc.

The bible says unless you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit from the laying of hands you cannot administer Holy Communion, forgive sins, marry in the CC. etc.

I have the gift of the HS given to me at baptism, but I cannot baptize you, (only in emergency) marry you, forgive you sin, give you communion, etc.

But I can teach according to the interpretation of the Church, but I cannot define scripture with my Human mind, it is not possible.
 
I never have understood why Catholics argue with that point. Because no it would not have necessarily failed. Unless you don’t have faith Jesus has the capacity to stop by, to step in whenever He wants exactly for the reason to assure it doesn’t fail.
“Perhaps God was taking His Authority elsewhere before the CC decreed a counterfactual canon. It could happen right?” This is a quote from the post I replied too.

How else would one answer this question?🤷 The question asserts that God transferred authority from one entity to another. Thus, the argument fits the question. If Jesus had to transfer authority to a different Church or a different group of people then the original church would necessarily have failed, no?
 
But, back to what I was trying to illustrate, it seems to me that Catholics view the pope and his bishops as being more wise and having more authority to teach since the Authority of Jesus as head of the Church translates to them. The bible says “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally.” The hierarchy of the CC seems to defy that, insofar as there are many wise teachers of the Word of God outside of the Catholic faith. This is why I say the Church is not just the CC, but the CC, AG, Lutheran, Methodists, Baptists, as “one,” just as Jesus intended.
I’m not sure though the current Pope views himself as more wise. He seems to agree with us that there are many of wisdom outside the Catholic faith too. In speaking about Christ’s body of believers, Catholics and Protestants, walking together, Francis said:

“We each have in our churches excellent theologians".

“Our shared baptism is more important than our differences.”

“We all have the Holy Spirit within us, which prays within us.”

👍

cruxnow.com/church/2014/10/28/pope-francis-urges-catholics-protestants-work-together-video/
 
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