What's Your Authority?

[FathersKnowBest]

Your reply to Mt.23 revealed something for me. You said “It is the same today”. Now I understand where your coming from. Having the Holy Spirit with us and in us would seem to make no difference for you. For me, it makes all the difference. I can trust the leading of the Spirit. The Spirit is not partial to any man. He does not give more to the Pope. He fills anyone to the degree that he is willing to empty himself.

This is clearly unbiblical. The Spirit gives different gifts to different people.

1Co 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one.
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Then what about new questions such as gay marriage? Will Rome remain biblical on this?

You betcha.

Many liberal churches have caved to the culture. If you have enough liberals in power in Rome, will they stray from the bible also? We don’t know.

Yeah, we do. Jesus promised it.

They have infallible power to do as the want.

This belies a strong misunderstanding of infallibility.

No, they don’t have the power to do as they want. They have to follow the Holy Spirit.

Do you see how this can lead to danger? I am not alone. Malachi Martin who knew much more about the Church than most, thought that it had already lead itself into apostasy. Can you know for sure that you’re right?

If we’re not, then the powers of Hell have overcome Jesus’ Church, and the implications are enormous. I’d rather not even contemplate them.

 

[GiveTheTruth]

Interesting you should mention Matthew Chapter 23. Verses 1-3 state “Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples saying, ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say and do not do.”

Can you find anywhere in Sacred Scripture where the seat of Moses was ever decreed or inaugurated?
I will save you time and your fingertips pain. You can’t. This was a Judaic tradition established by the Jews that obviously Jesus observed and did not speak out against.

Secondly, the book of Jude mentions in verse 9 “Yet, Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!”

Can you find this anywhere in the Old Testament? Once again, brother, I will save you time. You can’t. Jude is quoting from the apocryphal book “The Assumption of Moses.”

Jude also quotes from the apocryphal Book of Enoch in verses 14-15, nothing of which can be found in the Old Testament.

2 Timothy 3:8 begins with St. Paul stating “Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth” …
St. Paul is referring to the Book of Jannes and Jambres, which was a Jewish Talmudic tradition. Jannes and Jambres were Pharaoh’s magicians. Yet it is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament.

Finally, in John 10:22, “Now, it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter, and Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.”
Where do we find this feast in the Old Testament and what feast was it that Jesus was obviously observing being that He was at the temple?
This is the feast of Hanukkah which the Jews celebrate till this day, the inauguration of which can be found in the inspired book of 1 Maccabees chapters 1-4. The feast commemorates the rededication of the temple in Jerusalem after the Seleucid King Epiphanes desecrated it in 167 BC. At this feast, the leaders of Israel’s past were honored. The books of the Maccabees have some answers to some of Daniel’s prophesies, but because they were removed 100 years after the protestant rebellion, people have been using the book of Daniel to promote all kinds of erroneous speculation
regarding the end times.

Obviously, sola scriptura is not biblical. As a matter of fact, if you can find the word “bible” in the bible, please send me the text.

Secondly, I would beware of any private interpretations of the bible. That is why there are so many denominations out there. St. Peter warns of this in 2 Peter 1:20, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophesy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 8:30-31, "So, Philip ran to him and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah and said, "Do you understand what you are reading? And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?”

 

[Magdalena59]

Your reply to Mt.23 revealed something for me. You said “It is the same today”. Now I understand where your coming from. Having the Holy Spirit with us and in us would seem to make no difference for you. For me, it makes all the difference. I can trust the leading of the Spirit. The Spirit is not partial to any man. He does not give more to the Pope. He fills anyone to the degree that he is willing to empty himself.

Returning to the test case of baptismal regeneration I have pointed to several problems for you:

I have shown from Acts 10 that the Spirit was given before baptism.

I have shown how your interpretation of 1Pt. is contradictory.

I have shown that Rm. 6 is not about the new birth.?

I am curious as to how you know for sure that your position on baptism or any of the scripture passages you have presented are correct. There are many protestant denominations that believe different than you in regards to baptism. Are they wrong and you right or visa versa? How do you know for sure that you are hearing the Holy Spirit correctly? Why would Jesus promise that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth and give so many different truths? Where do you go to obey Matthew 18, where Jesus says to take the problem to the Church?

Yes, I realise you are only repeating the historic position of the Church. That worked well 700 years ago when most people did not have free access to the Bible and all the teaching and info on TV and internet, but today you need to be more logical if you expect folks to believe what you say.?

I would be very cautious about getting your Biblical answers from someone on tv or on the internet. I would be very careful to check out to see if they have gotten into any type of trouble, what their ministry is like, what is their goal or are they just out to make money. I heard one tv preacher say he didn’t know the scriptures before he started preaching, so he went to his garage, sat down and took several weeks or more and read the Bible and now he is out preaching.

The Scriptures say in 1 Timothy 3:15 that the Church is the pillar and foundation and truth. No where does he say it will come from tv preachers or the internet. TV preachers and internet blogs come and go, the Catholic church has been here for the length of time that it has because Jesus promised it would.

Here’s the the thing about infallible authority, it locks one into a position that you can’t change or modify. For example, we see how in this time God is using and raising up women in the church but Rome cannot follow the Spirit because it is locked into it’s own history.?

How do you know for sure, absolutely, positively that it is the Holy Spirit? The Catholic church has always had women involved in the Church and has always encouraged it. If you are referring to women being priests then those that promote that are not following the Holy Spirit but wanting to change with the culture.

Then what about new questions such as gay marriage? Will Rome remain biblical on this?Many liberal churches have caved to the culture. If you have enough liberals in power in Rome, will they stray from the bible also? We don’t know. They have infallible power to do as the want. Do you see how this can lead to danger? I am not alone. Malachi Martin who knew much more about the Church than most, thought that it had already lead itself into apostasy. Can you know for sure that you’re right?

Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, he did not say it wouldn’t try. There have been many attempts throughout history to bring down the Catholic church but the Holy Spirit continues to protect it.

Malachi Martin is one man, a human being with many controversies surrounding him. You would best to follow the scriptures and the Catholic church as it was given to us by Jesus.

I would suggest studying what the Catholic church really teaches, such as through the catechism or good Catholic teachers such as Scott Hahn, Father Mitch Pacwa or any of the saints, instead of the misinformation you are hearing on the tv and internet.

Seek the truth in all its fullness. As the Bible says, lean not on your own understanding but in all of your ways acknowledge God and He will direct your path.

God bless.

 

[eazyduzit]

I still don’t understand why you think 1 Jn.3:2 contradicts Purgatory. I don’t agree. The verse says:

“Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.”



Here is Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary.

Here is St. Augustine on 1 John 3:2 (scroll down)

When Par. 1021 of the CCC says “Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ…”, I believe it means by “death”, that moment when the body is separated from the soul. I think you taking the text to be saying something it’s not.

In the Nicene Creed, it says that Jesus Christ, “…shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead…” This refers to the general judgement (to my understanding.) To quote the Catholic Encyclopedia, “The Catholic doctrine of the particular judgment is this: *that immediately after death the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God. *” (Bold mine) (To see this doctrine proved from Scripture, you can click the link I gave.) In Catholic teaching, there are only two eternal destinies; Heaven and Hell. If you look at Par. 1022 of the CCC (which I also cited above), it says:

"1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597"

This paragraph, if I understand correctly, is referring to the particular judgement I just spoke of. By “death”, I believe it means when the soul becomes separated from the body. Here we see the two destines; Heaven and Hell. The post-mortem “purification” spoken of is Purgatory; it is not an eternal destiny. While some refer to Purgatory as a “place”, I believe that the concept of purgatory as a “place” is an acceptable Theological opinion; it is not a part of the dogma (cf. this Catholic Answers tract). That is why I believe the CCC doesn’t refer to it as such.

Sure, feel free to open another thread. There are others who are more knowledgable on this forum than I. Also, I would like to welcome the moderator(s) to split this threat if they would like (not that my invitation is needed), as Purgatory is not the point of this thread. Here is a (2 part) question though that is related to authority, that might help pick up the thread some.

1.) Does there exist an authority that determines which Books belong in the Bible? Where can one find that authority?

–Nick

There is already a very long thread on that. Taz is doing OK. Don’t think he needs my help.

 

[eazyduzit]

I am curious as to how you know for sure that your position on baptism or any of the scripture passages you have presented are correct. There are many protestant denominations that believe different than you in regards to baptism. Are they wrong and you right or visa versa? How do you know for sure that you are hearing the Holy Spirit correctly? Why would Jesus promise that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth and give so many different truths? Where do you go to obey Matthew 18, where Jesus says to take the problem to the Church?

I would be very cautious about getting your Biblical answers from someone on tv or on the internet. I would be very careful to check out to see if they have gotten into any type of trouble, what their ministry is like, what is their goal or are they just out to make money. I heard one tv preacher say he didn’t know the scriptures before he started preaching, so he went to his garage, sat down and took several weeks or more and read the Bible and now he is out preaching.
V
The Scriptures say in 1 Timothy 3:15 that the Church is the pillar and foundation and truth. No where does he say it will come from tv preachers or the internet. TV preachers and internet blogs come and go, the Catholic church has been here for the length of time that it has because Jesus promised it would.

How do you know for sure, absolutely, positively that it is the Holy Spirit? The Catholic church has always had women involved in the Church and has always encouraged it. If you are referring to women being priests then those that promote that are not following the Holy Spirit but wanting to change with the culture.

Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, he did not say it wouldn’t try. There have been many attempts throughout history to bring down the Catholic church but the Holy Spirit continues to protect it.

Malachi Martin is one man, a human being with many controversies surrounding him. You would best to follow the scriptures and the Catholic church as it was given to us by Jesus.

I would suggest studying what the Catholic church really teaches, such as through the catechism or good Catholic teachers such as Scott Hahn, Father Mitch Pacwa or any of the saints, instead of the misinformation you are hearing on the tv and internet.

Seek the truth in all its fullness. As the Bible says, lean not on your own understanding but in all of your ways acknowledge God and He will direct your path.

God bless.

Thanks for the reply, Mag59. I can tell you’re sincere. Truly, Jesus,Paul, and Peter gave many warnings about false teachers who would pervert the truth, yet no one said that their is a wall of infallibility to protect you automatically. Rather, St. John said to “try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world”. And also in the true church as well. Jesus said to let the tares grow up with the wheat.The truth will prevail. It is not a problem for God. The way you protect yourself from the wolves is to know the Shepherd. He said "My sheep know My voice and another they will not follow. He also told us, “you will know them by their fruits”. In NT times God confirmed his word and His ministers with signs, wonders, and miracles. He still does today. For many years I have followed the teaching ministry of Andrew Wommack. He has been teaching for 40 years and his bible college is spreading world-wide. He has helped thousands to walk in their destiny. It is confirmed everywhere by signs, healings, and miracles, but perhaps the greatest sign or miracle is that his ministry was invited to teach courses at a CATHOLIC institution. Why you ask? Because their teaching bears fruitful results. Not because of trying to prove who is right.
I am following the scriptures as given by the H. S. It is the Catholic Church and others who add to it and try to change it. Malachi Martin is one man who happened to have enormous insight. The things he prophesied are coming to pass as we speak. It is not your authority to dismiss his life and work so easily. Were you a special assistant to any Popes? Did you read the actual 3rd secret of Fatima? Not the one that was released to the public which is not the real thing. Some people will simply keep their eyes wide shut. If you are part of a group that says you can only look at its own approved teachings, then you are in a cult.

 

[eazyduzit]

Interesting you should mention Matthew Chapter 23. Verses 1-3 state "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples saying, ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say and do not do."b

Can you find anywhere in Sacred Scripture where the seat of Moses was ever decreed or inaugurated?
I will save you time and your fingertips pain. You can’t. This was a Judaic tradition established by the Jews that obviously Jesus observed and did not speak out against.

Secondly, the book of Jude mentions in verse 9 “Yet, Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!”

Can you find this anywhere in the Old Testament? Once again, brother, I will save you time. You can’t. Jude is quoting from the apocryphal book “The Assumption of Moses.”

Jude also quotes from the apocryphal Book of Enoch in verses 14-15, nothing of which can be found in the Old Testament.

2 Timothy 3:8 begins with St. Paul stating “Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth” …
St. Paul is referring to the Book of Jannes and Jambres, which was a Jewish Talmudic tradition. Jannes and Jambres were Pharaoh’s magicians. Yet it is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament.

Finally, in John 10:22, “Now, it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter, and Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.”
Where do we find this feast in the Old Testament and what feast was it that Jesus was obviously observing being that He was at the temple?
This is the feast of Hanukkah which the Jews celebrate till this day, the inauguration of which can be found in the inspired book of 1 Maccabees chapters 1-4. The feast commemorates the rededication of the temple in Jerusalem after the Seleucid King Epiphanes desecrated it in 167 BC. At this feast, the leaders of Israel’s past were honored. The books of the Maccabees have some answers to some of Daniel’s prophesies, but because they were removed 100 years after the protestant rebellion, people have been using the book of Daniel to promote all kinds of erroneous speculation
regarding the end times.

Obviously, sola scriptura is not biblical. As a matter of fact, if you can find the word “bible” in the bible, please send me the text.

Secondly, I would beware of any private interpretations of the bible. That is why there are so many denominations out there. St. Peter warns of this in 2 Peter 1:20, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophesy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 8:30-31, "So, Philip ran to him and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah and said, "Do you understand what you are reading? And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?”

Sorry GTT, but Jesus was not endorsing how the scribes and Pharisees operated. V. 4 says they “bind heavy burdens” but Jesus said, “My burden is light”. I see this as totally different.
FYI,the “seat of Moses” was a chair that was normally set up in every local synagogue. Jesus is saying to the disciples that they are not to set themselves apart as “the masters” or "rabbis as the Pharisees do. That is the point here.

You seem need to gain some points by proving inspiration of the apocryphas. Well, they are valuable histories, but they do not bear the evidence of scriptural God breathed inspiration.

For example, the biblical prophets would often preface their word with “The word of the Lord came unto me saying” or similar. You will not find this anywhere in the apocryphal literature. The writer of Maccabees only says “If I have done well…”

More important is that scripture always prophecies of Christ. that is it purpose. Jesus said “these are they that speak of Me” If they do not speak of Him, then they do not belong in the bible. The apocrypha do not anywhere testify of Christ.

Are you comparing a Christian to the eunuch in Acts 8? Do you not see that at that time this man was yet a heathen? A Christian has the Holy Spirit to guide him. Are you implying this is worth nothing?

 

[Randy_Carson]

More important is that scripture always prophecies of Christ. that is it purpose. Jesus said “these are they that speak of Me” If they do not speak of Him, then they do not belong in the bible. The apocrypha do not anywhere testify of Christ.

The Song of Songs does not mention God.
3 John does not mention Jesus.

You have both of these books in your Bible. Why? It seems your criteria for determining which books should or should not be included in the Bible is flawed.

Here are a dozen points of agreement between the New Testament and the Old Testament books which you refer to as “Apochrypha”:

New Testament References to Deuterocanonical Books

Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Sirach 28:2
Forgive your neighbor’s injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven.

+++

Luke 6:31
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Tobit 4:15
Do to no one what you yourself dislike. Do not drink wine till you become drunk, nor let drunkenness accompany you on your way.

+++

Matthew 27:41-43
41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, "but he can’t save himself! He’s the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ "

Wisdom 2:15-18
15 Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways. 16 He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. 17 Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. 18 For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. 19 With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him." 21 These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them, 22 And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.

+++

Luke 14:13
13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Tobit 4:7
"Give alms from your possessions. Do not turn your face away from any of the poor, and God’s face will not be turned away from you.

+++

John 10:22
22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter,

1 Maccabees 4:59
Then Judas and his brothers and the entire congregation of Israel decreed that the days of the dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness on the anniversary every year for eight days, from the twenty-fifth day of the month Chislev.

+++

Romans 9:20
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "

Wisdom 12:12
12 For who can say to you, “What have you done?” or who can oppose your decree? Or when peoples perish, who can challenge you, their maker; or who can come into your presence as vindicator of unjust men?
+++

Romans 9:21
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Wisdom 15:7
For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge.

+++

Romans 9:22
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Wisdom 12:20
20 For these were enemies of your servants, doomed to death; yet, while you punished them with such solicitude and pleading, granting time and opportunity to abandon wickedness,

+++

Romans 11:34
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

Wisdom 9:13
For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?

+++

2 Corinthians 9:7
7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Sirach 35:9
Give to the Most High as he has given to you, generously, according to your means.

+++

Hebrews 1:3
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Wisdom 7:26
For she is the refulgence of eternal light, the spotless mirror of the power of God, the image of his goodness.

+++

Hebrews 11:35
35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

2 Maccabees 7:7
Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them."

 

[JaKael02]

New Testament References to Deuterocanonical Books

"

Randy dropping bombs like a BAUS!

I’m always amazed at how much stuff you have on file and ready to pull out. Good stuff!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy dropping bombs like a BAUS!

I’m always amazed at how much stuff you have on file and ready to pull out. Good stuff!

:tiphat:

 

[Erich]

The passage that best describes how the apostles are to conduct themselves is in Mt. 23. Jesus describes how the scribes and Pharisees set themselves up as authorities. Does Jesus then tell them: “You shall likewise have authority over others”. No, Its quite the opposite. What He really said was “But be ye not called rabbi, for one is your master even Christ”; and all ye are brethren".(v.8) That is, no one is superior. And then in the next verse, they are not to choose one person on the earth to single out to call “father”. And then, they are not to be called “masters”.

This is an unmistakable teaching on the authority issue

… and yet another passage that doesn’t mean what you think it means.

The imperative “call no man father” does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors “father,” as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to “our father Abraham,” or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of “our father Isaac.” There are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term “father” being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker. There are, in fact, so many uses of “father” in the New Testament, that your interpretation of Matthew 23 (and by extension the typical objection to Catholics calling priests “father”) must be wrong.

A careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, “But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ” (Matt. 23:8–10).

The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term “teacher,” in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth” (1 Tim. 2:7); “For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher” (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers” (1 Cor. 12:28); and “his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as “teachers.”

I suspect that you yourself slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people “doctor,” for example, medical doctors, as well as professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What you (and others) fail to realize is that “doctor” is simply the Latin word for “teacher.” Even “Mister” and “Mistress” (“Mrs.”) are forms of the word “master,” also mentioned by Jesus. So if his words in Matthew 23 were meant to be taken literally, you would be just as guilty for using the word “teacher” and “doctor” and “mister” as Catholics for saying “father.” But clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of Christ’s words.

 

[rainman10]

I am following the scriptures as given by the H. S.

eazy, you quoted the above. My questions:

1. you are following the scriptures as given by the Holy Spirit to whom? to you personally?
2. is it not true that the Holy Spirit was left to guide Christ’s Church unto all Truth?
3. also, isn’t it true that the Holy Spirit does not lie or cause confusion? It teaches ALL Truth, 100%?
4. if you are following the scriptures as given to you by the Holy Spirit, then all that you proclaim is the 100% God given truth, correct?
5. therefore, your interpretations of scripture are completely infallible, correct?
6. and as a result, then, every Christian on earth should be following you, because you must be Christ’s Church. You are THE authority we should all follow, correct?

 

[GiveTheTruth]

Eazyduzit,
Thanks for your reply. And there’s no need to apologize.
I see you have not provided a Scripture decreeing or inaugurating the seat of Moses. The chair itself was a symbol of teaching authority from which the Mosaic law was pronounced. In the synagogue was the Bima or elevation on which was located a desk called the Luach from which the law was read by one standing. It’s also called Kurseya, chair or throne or Kisse and Pergulah. Those who read the Law would stand while those who would preach or deliver a message would sit. The scribes and Pharisees were the successors and heirs of Moses’ teaching authority.
Hence v. 3 “Therefore, whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.” Jesus is clearly saying follow their teaching (because they sit in the chair of Moses), but not as they do. If you read the entire chapter in context v. 23 gives much clarification of the heavy burdens they put on the shoulders of men, “Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.”
The chair of Moses was a Judaic tradition developed over time that Jesus acknowledged.
The do not be called rabbis and call no man on earth father and neither be called masters
is hyperbolic language used by Jesus, as He did in many other teachings, meant for the Pharisees and scribes to hear who were within earshot, because of their hypocrisy. Remember in Luke 12:1 Jesus states, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.”
Your interpretation would totally contradict Jesus’ giving Peter the keys of the kingdom and the power to bind and loose given to Peter and the other apostles as well. Unfortunately for you, Jesus and the apostles were practicing Jews and not Pentecostal Christians. Jesus was using kingdom language that the apostles fully understood. Any Judaic scholar will tell you and have stated by Jesus giving the keys of the kingdom solely to Peter He made him the leader of the early church. Judaic scholars give the following rabbinical definition as understood during the time of Jesus for possessing the keys of the kingdom and binding and loosing as follows: “The power or right of deciding law in doubtful cases or of interpreting, modifying or amplifying, and occasionally of abrogating (repeal or do away with) it as vested in the Rabbis as its teachers and expounders,” and much more too numerous to mention.
Bind and loose: “Power of binding and losing was always claimed by the Pharisees. Not only does it mean to decide what according to the law was forbidden or allowed, but they possessed and exercised the power of tying and untying a thing by spell of their divine authority just as the could by the power vested in them to pronounce and revoke an anathema upon a person; forbidding and permitting; administrators of public affairs.”
Sounds a lot like authority to me. They can be found in the Jewish Encyclopedia of Funk and Wagnalls.
Hebrew 13:17 “Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.”

 

[GiveTheTruth]

Eazyduzit,
If you’re still looking for any scriptures that contain the word “bible,” while you’re at it, can you also provide me with the bible creating criteria that you’ve stated in your post. I fail to find any in the bible.
We know Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. John 16:13, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” … 1 Timothy 3:15 …“you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of truth.”
There is only one truth = JESUS CHRIST.
If the apocryphal books bear no evidence of scriptural God-breathed inspiration, why would the Holy Spirit who guided the inspired authors into all truth have them quote apocryphal books? The apostles who quoted the apocryphal books quoted them as truth, not as “valuable histories.”
You say if they do not speak of Him then they don’t belong in the bible. Well, the Koran and the book of Mormon speak of Jesus. Do they belong in the bible?

 

[GiveTheTruth]

Eazyduzit,

You also state, “Are you comparing a Christian to the eunuch in Acts 8? Do you not see that at that time this man was yet a heath? A Christian has the Holy Spirit to guide Him. Are you implying this is worth nothing?”

First of all, I am not implying that the Holy Spirit is worth nothing. Those are your words. The Holy Spirit is what leads and guides us into all truth as it obviously was working on this eunuch, who was on his way to Jerusalem to worship as did many admirers of Judaism. The Holy Spirit is always working to draw those apart from Christ to salvation and working in us believers to bring us to a closer relationship with Jesus and deeper understanding of the truth. Did not God work on Cornelius, a devout man who feared God, not a Christian yet, in Acts 10? Cornelius was not yet a Christian, but he had a vision and was eventually guided into all truth and became a Christian as did the eunuch.
Romans 1:19-20 “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.”

Finally, even those who have the Holy Spirit sometimes need fatherly guidance.
1 Cor. 4:14, “I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers.”

 

[Magdalena59]

Thanks for the reply, Mag59. I can tell you’re sincere. Truly, Jesus,Paul, and Peter gave many warnings about false teachers who would pervert the truth, yet no one said that their is a wall of infallibility to protect you automatically. Rather, St. John said to “try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world”. And also in the true church as well. Jesus said to let the tares grow up with the wheat.The truth will prevail. It is not a problem for God. .

I agree we are to try the spirits but as I have said without God’s Church to guide us in how we try those spirits we have no baseline, no foundation. It is our own thinking. We can not be sure it is the Holy Spirit if we are not in agreement or unity with out fellow Christians because they also are trying the spirits and they are coming up with a different truth. True it is not a problem for God. He gave us instructions in Matthew 18, to end our disputes by going to the Church.

The way you protect yourself from the wolves is to know the Shepherd. He said "My sheep know My voice and another they will not follow. He also told us, “you will know them by their fruits”. In NT times God confirmed his word and His ministers with signs, wonders, and miracles. He still does today. .

The many years I was in the protestant churches whenever I would question a teaching, why one denomination believed one way and another believed something else and why didn’t my denomination believe the same as another, the answer you gave above is the answer I heard. “Just stay close to Jesus.” “The other denominations do not have the fruit we have. Stay close to Jesus. They are wrong and we are right.” Every different denomination had the same answer, and there were quite a few. But when I would try to go somewhere to find the truth, to figure out the reasons for the differences, there was no where to go. Much of these differences were regarding salvation also. Pretty big stuff. I had not yet learned Matthew 18:17. Coming into the Catholic church was because after asking Jesus where do I find the truth, where do I go to understand your Word, the Holy Spirit led me here, home and in not too long of a time either and I have not looked back, nor have any reason to. Yes, stay close to Jesus and ask him to lead you because He is not a God of confusion. 1 Corinthians 14:33

For many years I have followed the teaching ministry of Andrew Wommack. He has been teaching for 40 years and his bible college is spreading world-wide. He has helped thousands to walk in their destiny. It is confirmed everywhere by signs, healings, and miracles, but perhaps the greatest sign or miracle is that his ministry was invited to teach courses at a CATHOLIC institution. Why you ask? Because their teaching bears fruitful results. Not because of trying to prove who is right.
I am following the scriptures as given by the H. S. It is the Catholic Church and others who add to it and try to change it. Malachi Martin is one man who happened to have enormous insight. The things he prophesied are coming to pass as we speak. It is not your authority to dismiss his life and work so easily. Were you a special assistant to any Popes? Did you read the actual 3rd secret of Fatima? Not the one that was released to the public which is not the real thing. Some people will simply keep their eyes wide shut. If you are part of a group that says you can only look at its own approved teachings, then you are in a cult.

I do not know much about Andrew Wommack. I understand there are those that follow him and those that think he is wrong. The same as I said about Malachi Martin. I do not know their teachings, what they believe or what they say but I do know this. They are men who have not been around since the days of the early church and they will not be around too much into the future because we all must die. I can’t rely on them to be the pillar and foundation of truth because that would go against Scripture. 1 Timothy 3:15.They will someday be gone and there will be parts of their teachings that will live on, yes, and they may well be good Christians. True it is not my place to judge their heart and I am not doing that but my point is they do contain the whole truth of God, the fullness of truth. There may be truth in their teachings but not the fullness of truth, not the whole truth. I have learned in life not to set too high on a pedestal another human being. The Catholic church is not a human being to follow but it is the teachings of the Holy Spirit.

Following the Good Shepherd would, yes, be following only His approved teachings. Those given to us through the Catholic Church, through the Holy Spirit.

Are there problems and sinners in the Catholic church, yes, as there are in all of us but God did promise he would give us all truth, not to lean on our own understanding and that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.

God bless.

 

[JMM1957]

Eazyduzit,You also state, “Are you comparing a Christian to the eunuch in Acts 8? Do you not see that at that time this man was yet a heath? A Christian has the Holy Spirit to guide Him. Are you implying this is worth nothing?”

The Eunuch was not a heathen, he was Jew, Acts 8 says he was going to Jerusalem to worship. Nevertheless, he still needed understanding of the scripture he was reading, so Phillip explained it to him. Which by the way shows the need for a teaching authority so that you get the proper understanding of scripture.

 

[eazyduzit]

The Eunuch was not a heathen, he was Jew, Acts 8 says he was going to Jerusalem to worship. Nevertheless, he still needed understanding of the scripture he was reading, so Phillip explained it to him. Which by the way shows the need for a teaching authority so that you get the proper understanding of scripture.

The bible does not state that he was a Jew. Even Gentiles went to the temple to worship. That is why there is a Court of the Gentiles. Neither does it follow that a teaching authority is needed to explain salvation. St. Peter says "As every man hath received the gift(the same giftPeter received) even so minister the same one to another,as good stewards of the grace of God. There is no calling for a special teaching authority.

 

[eazyduzit]

Eazyduzit,

You also state, “Are you comparing a Christian to the eunuch in Acts 8? Do you not see that at that time this man was yet a heath? A Christian has the Holy Spirit to guide Him. Are you implying this is worth nothing?”

First of all, I am not implying that the Holy Spirit is worth nothing. Those are your words. The Holy Spirit is what leads and guides us into all truth as it obviously was working on this eunuch, who was on his way to Jerusalem to worship as did many admirers of Judaism. The Holy Spirit is always working to draw those apart from Christ to salvation and working in us believers to bring us to a closer relationship with Jesus and deeper understanding of the truth. Did not God work on Cornelius, a devout man who feared God, not a Christian yet, in Acts 10? Cornelius was not yet a Christian, but he had a vision and was eventually guided into all truth and became a Christian as did the eunuch.
Romans 1:19-20 “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.”

Finally, even those who have the Holy Spirit sometimes need fatherly guidance.
1 Cor. 4:14, “I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers.”

Sorry, sounded to me like you were trying to say that if this eunuch needs help to understand, then it would follow that Christians do too. I misunderstood, but then, what was the point?

 

[eazyduzit]

Eazyduzit,
If you’re still looking for any scriptures that contain the word “bible,” while you’re at it, can you also provide me with the bible creating criteria that you’ve stated in your post. I fail to find any in the bible.
We know Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. John 16:13, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” … 1 Timothy 3:15 …“you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of truth.”
There is only one truth = JESUS CHRIST.
If the apocryphal books bear no evidence of scriptural God-breathed inspiration, why would the Holy Spirit who guided the inspired authors into all truth have them quote apocryphal books? The apostles who quoted the apocryphal books quoted them as truth, not as “valuable histories.”
You say if they do not speak of Him then they don’t belong in the bible. Well, the Koran and the book of Mormon speak of Jesus. Do they belong in the bible?

Jews call their bible “Tanach” but then the word Tanach is not in the Tanach.
Paul also quoted Greek literature but that doesn’t make it inspired either.

 

[JMM1957]

The bible does not state that he was a Jew. Even Gentiles went to the temple to worship. That is why there is a Court of the Gentiles. Neither does it follow that a teaching authority is needed to explain salvation. St. Peter says "As every man hath received the gift(the same giftPeter received) even so minister the same one to another,as good stewards of the grace of God. There is no calling for a special teaching authority.

I see that it does not say specifically that he was a “Jew” or a practicer of Judaism, it just said he was going to Jerusalem to worship. Looking at the context again, he most likely was a Gentile. I stand corrected on that, I wasn’t aware of the Court of the Gentiles being a place of worship, I thought it was just a mall area, or marketplace type setting.

On the other hand, that passage does indeed show that a teaching authority is necessary for proper understanding of some scripture, certainly not every letter of scripture, but some of the more difficult or mysterious passages, of which there are many in the Bible. That is what Phillip did here, is to explain it to the Ethiopian, am I right or wrong?

Also, Peter was not talking of the same gift he had, but “a” gift, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, of which there are many. I really think your defiance towards a teaching authority in the church stems from a misunderstanding of the biblical role of the church in the first place, the church established on the original twelve Apostles. Your idea that any one individual can pick up the Bible and pray for the help of the Holy Spirit for understanding, and come to a complete and accurate knowledge of the mysteries of God has no scriptural support whatsoever. If you think that this is possible, then please explain why there are thousands and thousands of different Reformed churches in the world today, each teaching something different, some with little differences, some with great differences? Does that sound like the Holy Spirit at work, really? Phillipians 2:1-2 says much better what I am getting at.