What's your opinion on Orthodoxy?

[ComeHome2Rome]

He (Scott Hahn) also asked his professor what the basis of Bible authenticity is, who then stated “the quasi unanimous testimony of the Early Church Fathers”

Really??? LOL

 

[gus]

How do you explain then the rapid secularization in Western Europe where there is a huge decline in practicing Catholics? Even in North America, the Catholic Church population is held up only by rapid immigration.

Places like Ukraine and Russia has a huge growth after the fall of Communism. The average age of a Roman Catholic priest in North America is in the 60s. The average age in Ukraine for an Ukrainian Catholic priest is 35.

The rise in seclurism is just another bump in the road . We have faced worse.
Where is your faith.
As for your prideful boast about the of rebirth of Othodoxy in eastern Europe and your gleefullness at the demise of Catholism in the West.

Your rebirth was made possible by a courage of Catholic Poland and the Great John Paul II. By the way he also was Catholic.

In this war against serculsm I think I rather have a evangelical protestant in the same foxhole with me than someone from the other lung.

At least they would recognize the enemy.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is not really an accurate summary of the results of ecumenical councils. But if that is what you see, then fine. There is no new dogma just definitions that make certain positions firm and rule out others. But that is what catholics call the develpment of doctrine.

What we said is the same thing. I guess my tendency to get wordy and confusing has gotten the best of me again

 

[ConstantineTG]

The rise in seclurism is just another bump in the road . We have faced worse.
Where is your faith.

And the same can be said by the Orthodox Christians.

As for your prideful boast about the of rebirth of Othodoxy in eastern Europe and your gleefullness at the demise of Catholism in the West.

Your rebirth was made possible by a courage of Catholic Poland and the Great John Paul II. By the way he also was Catholic.

As much as I agree with Pope John Paul II’s role with the fall of communism, the growth of Orthodoxy and Catholicism in Ukraine is thanks in large part to the resilience of the people there that produced dozens of martyrs over the past centuries. Not to take anything away from our beloved Pope, but all the credit does not belong to him. I believe he himself will tell you that. He is joined in heaven by those martyrs.

In this war against serculsm I think I rather have a evangelical protestant in the same foxhole with me than someone from the other lung.

At least they would recognize the enemy.

Yes, for them the enemy is whom they refer to as the whore of Babylon, who to them is the Roman Catholic Church. Enjoy their company in the foxhole.

 

[gus]

Pope Paul VI made the Novus Ordo into the regular Latin rite liturgy. A very unfortunate decision, in my view. This form of the Mass, in practice, far too often seems to pander to Protestant sensibilities as a service toned down in its “formality” and fails to offer those in attendance an edifying context in which to worship God with devotion and reverence.

Read some backround on what actually is going \on at Mass.
The Mass of Paul VI when done with reverence and awe fufulls all the requirements of a Sarcred Liturgy… Maybe the venacular allowed for less reverence and ignornant clegy did all did a lot of damage.
But I’ve atteded 20 min
Latin masses which in retrospect were pretty irreverent.
There is a burden on the participant in either Mass can be the vehicle to rise up to meet Christ in the spirit.
Either form will do it for me
I also love the term Mass as in dismissal. It tells us the even though we rose up to meet and patook in the body of Christ the most important thing in the room is the Exit sign
For If we don"t go out into the world and live the Gospel. The Liturgy was hollow.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Pope Paul VI made the Novus Ordo into the regular Latin rite liturgy. A very unfortunate decision, in my view. This form of the Mass, in practice, far too often seems to pander to Protestant sensibilities as a service toned down in its “formality” and fails to offer those in attendance an edifying context in which to worship God with devotion and reverence.

Hi Trebor,

Not sure if you knew that late last year our Church implemented a new English translation of the Novus Ordo Mass, including our Nicene Creed.

If you already knew, do you like it any better than the original Novus Ordo Mass?

 

[gus]

Where? Bearing in mind its majority of nominal adherents, Eastern Europe–from Russia to Greece–is still mainly Orthodox. Its Muslim majority aside, the Middle East–particularly the Levant–has been strongly Orthodox too, especially before the Latin-Melkite agreement of 1724. The two regions would have a lot more practicing Orthodox if Islam and Communism hadn’t arrived on the scene.

In what concrete instances did the pope save Western Christianity?

I will give you the Alpa and Omea
After the Fall of the Roman Empire Pope Gregory and those that rallied around him pretty much saved Western Civilation as well as Western Christainity.

Pope John Paul II rallied the ragtag Polish Union that lead to the demise of .
Communism.
Your Canadian so Im sure received the same Anglo-Centric history I received in 50"s Connecticut Public School. Queen Elizibeth I was such a nice person.

 

[gus]

Yes i’m aware North Africa west of Egypt was considered part of the Latin Catholic West
But are you aware that in the 5th century Arian(Who converted these Germans ) Vandals conquered North Africa which lead to 100 years of persucution of the Catholic Church. This was only relieved when North Africa was reconquered by Justinian A Latin speaking Greek.However this also was an indroduction of Eastern Catholisism. Which lead to 100 more years of theological confusuion. Its no wonder the Berbers imbraced the moslems. A few 100 years of crazy christainity had confused them enough.
At least all these Christains in Western North Africa recognized the Muslim as the real enemy. Unlike Egypt were Christains distrusted themselves more than the invader.
Egypt was the key conquest in the Muslim March to world dominence.
North Africa could teach us something.

.Divide and Conquer.

 

[TEPO]

“A Path of no Return”

news.va/en/news/a-path-of-no-return

 

[TEPO]

Pope Paul VI made the Novus Ordo into the regular Latin rite liturgy. A very unfortunate decision, in my view. This form of the Mass, in practice, far too often seems to pander to Protestant sensibilities as a service toned down in its “formality” and fails to offer those in attendance an edifying context in which to worship God with devotion and reverence.

Wasn’t that reversed in 2007? Another step towards reconciliation in every direction…?

I attended a Traditional Latin Mass today…

 

[Trebor135]

You haven’t been to Mount Athos,it’s a beautiful place,you should visit it

Credo ergo sum was referring to the monasteries on Mount Athos, not the peninsula itself. The ascetics who dwell there have a reputation (whether or not it’s justified is another question) for holding a dim view of Catholicism and being opposed to ecumenical dialogue with the Catholic Church. Because those monks enjoy such great respect in the Orthodox world, their opinions are going to be taken into account where important issues are concerned, which means that the chances for East-West reunion aren’t so high.

 

[Trebor135]

I’ve heard this before, but, a Pope completely replaced the Mass which has indeed impacted the Faith of many. Myself included.

Check out some Eastern Catholic parishes when you get the chance–the Divine Liturgy there will likely far excel the typical Novus Ordo Mass you’ve attended. Ukrainian and Melkite Greek Catholic services are thoroughly magnificent, in my experience.

 

[Trebor135]

Credo ergo sum mentioned St. Jerome… I was thinking St. Irenaeus and St. Cyprian.

There are good Eastern Orthodox replies, however, to the passages from those Fathers endlessly cited in Catholic apologetics.

Again, I’m sure you know the quotes, and I don’t want to get in a prooftexting battle, so I’ll stop here.

Good idea. I’ll do likewise.

 

[Trebor135]

That seems fair.

But let’s not make this a quote war. Especially not in this subforum where tensions are always high.

Good idea.

I’ve been careful not to post the quote to prevent such quote wars from happening.

Haha. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[Trebor135]

I don’t follow their teaching closely [what fundamentalist megachurch pastors say], I’m thinking Catherine of Siena here.

Well, originally you said, “Its not of issue what the early church did.” Fundamentalist megachurch pastors, if asked to comment, would echo that sentiment and reply that we should go by the Bible alone.

St. Catherine of Siena never spoke in favour of solo scriptura–otherwise, she would most likely have been condemned as a heretic and never made it a millimetre toward canonization. I’d like to ask you to explain how your statement, “Its not of issue what the early church did,” is related to the life of that Italian lady of the fourteenth century?

 

[Trebor135]

The Living Magesterium could be described as the doorway between heaven and earth, in which only the Pope possesses the keys to. Its the Church’s reservation for the Holy Spirits position as the “Counselor” that Jesus promised.

No. Only in regards to our salvific obligations can there be no further revelation, because things such as the Sacraments have already been established, but there is no reason to believe that the Holy Spirit will not reveal more truths in order to steer the Church away from the impeding “gates of hell”. The Church therefore cannot ever remove the Papal position.

Thanks for your explanation.

Sorry, I’m not knowledgable enough about the Orthodox to answer that.

Let me rephrase the question: “What parts of the faith were revealed between the close of the apostolic age and the end of the first millennium?”

The second Vatican Counsel was based ENTIRELY on the doctrine of Ecumenism,

Since when was this made a doctrine? And if it’s so new, is it binding on all the Catholic faithful?

which is believed to have an eschatological dynamic to it… It is referred to by some as the “Second Pentecost”, because it’s purpose is to both USE the Living Magesterium to reunite the Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc., while at the same time serves to SAVE the Living Magesterium with the Holy Church…

Catholics can’t have their cake and eat it too! –That is, hope to reunite with other Christians while failing to address in a real way the biggest obstacle to all parties being reconciled: the papacy.

This is what God has shown us.

How?

It must happen.

Amen.

We’ve made huge sacrifices for this.

What sacrifices has the Catholic Church made to facilitate the reunion of all Christians?

 

[Trebor135]

Read some backround on what actually is going \on at Mass.

To be clear, what I’m saying is that, on the aesthetic and spiritual level, I don’t find that the Novus Ordo version of the Latin Catholic Liturgy is at all close to what it could and should be.

The Mass of Paul VI when done with reverence and awe fufulls all the requirements of a Sarcred Liturgy…

I’ve seen it done, but at only one parish that comes to mind; here’s a nice YouTube clip, from a church in the same city, that gives an idea of what I’d like to see more of at a Novus Ordo Mass.

Maybe the venacular allowed for less reverence and ignornant clegy did all did a lot of damage.

We can probably say that a lot of factors came together to create the perfect storm–the deterioration in morals during the '60s can’t have helped, either.

But I’ve atteded 20 min
Latin masses which in retrospect were pretty irreverent.

That’s possible.

There is a burden on the participant in either Mass can be the vehicle to rise up to meet Christ in the spirit.

True.

Either form will do it for me

I also love the term Mass as in dismissal. It tells us the even though we rose up to meet and patook in the body of Christ the most important thing in the room is the Exit sign
For If we don"t go out into the world and live the Gospel. The Liturgy was hollow.

That’s a nice way of looking at it.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

You haven’t been to Mount Athos,it’s a beautiful place,you should visit it

I’m sure it is. I want to visit Athos eventually. But I was talking about how those monks aren’t very fond of the idea of reunion with the Catholic Church.

 

[dzheremi]

I find it very interesting and instructive that so much of the thread has been taken up with talk about the Novus Ordo and what does or doesn’t fulfill the requirements of the Mass, and all the sacrifices that the Roman Catholic Church has made, and all of this type of stuff. I cannot for the life of me see how this is supposed to inspire confidence in the Orthodox that the Latins might ever come to understand what it means to share a common faith with the Orthodox Church (that is, to become Orthodox), which is the only way that union will ever happen. There isn’t a concession in the world that you can make to Orthodoxy that would be tantamount to becoming Orthodox, because we’re not playing Go Fish here. It’s an entire life (and history, tradition, worldview, etc.), not a matter of tweaking a broken system.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, it’s just…well, actually, no… It’s good to be a wet blanket. Wet blankets can put out fires sometimes, and some people are way too on fire for this “reunion” thing without actually thinking about what it means. Unity is not a goal in and of itself. Many anti-Christian forces are unified. Satan and his demons are unified.

 

[Vasilis92]

Credo ergo sum was referring to the monasteries on Mount Athos, not the peninsula itself. The ascetics who dwell there have a reputation (whether or not it’s justified is another question) for holding a dim view of Catholicism and being opposed to ecumenical dialogue with the Catholic Church. Because those monks enjoy such great respect in the Orthodox world, their opinions are going to be taken into account where important issues are concerned, which means that the chances for East-West reunion aren’t so high.

I know,I was kidding.I’ve been to those monasteries (back when I was Orthodox),I spent 2 beautiful months away from the world but -you said it yourself-they hold a dim view of Catholicism and not only.They are a barrier to (or at? ) the communication of the two Churches,sadly.