When did children become an inconveniece?

[Nec5]

Well, let me play the devils advocate here. If having children is what we should focus on, then my question to you is ‘Why aren’t you married with kids’.

I am sure that statement offended you. It is to make a point. Do not judge since you probably don’t like to be judged yourself. The most important thing is to do God’s will.

Yes, the most important thing is to do God’s will.

No, that is not a very good comparison. The original poster presumably has not done anything wrong and has not met the right person yet (if ever). That is not often a choice, particularly in this immoral society where well over half the population believes God to be a quaint somewhat useful fairy tale or a truth relative to themselves.

Comparing someone who is not married to someone choosing not to have kids is a false comparison. And there is no harm in discussing the societal impulse to limit or eliminate large families indirectly or directly. There are forces at work in this world that value death and the social snobbery at couples with more than 2 children is possibly one of the consequences. It is a worthy of discussion and thought.

 

[cmscms]

Hi Nec,

I understand the point you are trying to get at. I too have never married and am now at an age where I doubt I will ever have kids. However, I was simply trying to point out that a married person with a couple of kids could easily be offended when a single, childless person suggests they have more kids.

Also, I did not sense from the OP that she wanted to discuss how we could change society so people could feel having more children is easier. I sensed she was upset that people want to use NFP (which is not a sin) and I felt it was coming into discussing people’s personal choices as opposed to society’s obligations.

CM

 

[Georgia]

The factors holding down family numbers as people want the material things too should include one great unseen. That is the level of taxes we now pay. When I was a child, taxes were more of a nuisance than they were a burden. Now people who are on the tax rolls pay about half their incomes to tax, if you include sales tax, property tax, income tax, gasoline tax, taxes built into the price of goods and services, FICA, and who knows what else. These things eat a huge hole into the family budget that is, because of the way they are often collected, unnoticed.

We have become a consumerist society for good or for bad. As people try to keep up with their neighbors, it requires more and more work to achieve the same results. Having mothers and fathers out working creates a different dynamic when they get home. Many see children as too much of a burden on expense and on available time.

 

[mini_me640]

Ok first let me say that I’m single. I chose not to have children without being married and now it’s more than likely I will never have any but still I have to say I find all these threads about NFP troubling. It’s like everyone is out to do what they can to avoid children.

To be honest, I find someone who has no children themselves assuming that everyone choosing to try to limit their family size through morally licit means is doing so out of selfishness troubling. You have no idea how taxing it can be managing a household, jobs, and children. My mom was one of eight, her parents ran a business together and she was essentially brought up by her older siblings. She felt she barely knew her mom and rarely had any personal attention from her parents. Certainly her parents didn’t do that on purpose, but there is only so much time in a day, and if you have to work to provide for your family and manage a household, and take care of many children, something is bound to suffer. Not to mention the emotional health of the mother, who may feel overwhelmed at all she has to do.

I’m not for having 15 or 20 like the Duggars but whatever happened to the families of 5 or six kids. It’s like three became the norm and now only one or two is??

Why stop of 5 or 6, why not go for 15 or 20? My point is, your suggested family size of 5 or 6 is just as arbitrary as the 1-3 size that most people today view as “normal”. Not everyone is called to have a large family. If you have the means and the emotional strength to handle a lot of children, that’s great But not everyone does. Many women suffer from postpartum depression and anxiety, and many suffer from various physical problems as well. Everyone who chooses not to have a giant family isn’t doing so out of selfishness.
Do you think we’ve all lost focus on more important things?

Some people certainly have their priorities out of whack, but not everyone who tries to limit their family size does. Many just can’t reasonably provide for a large number of children, others just can’t handle it emotionally. I am expecting my second now, and to be honest sometimes I have felt overwhelmed with the first. I work two mornings a week 8-1230 and then I teach two nights a week 5-9 p.m. and am home with the little guy the rest of the time. I will be continuing this working arrangement after the second is born. I can’t imagine 6 kids to be honest. I love children, but I know my limitations…

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

You tend to get a good portion of that tax BACK and then some if you have children and don’t earn much.

 

[sharmin]

Ok first let me say that I’m single. I chose not to have children without being married and now it’s more than likely I will never have any but still I have to say I find all these threads about NFP troubling. It’s like everyone is out to do what they can to avoid children. I’m not for having 15 or 20 like the Duggars but whatever happened to the families of 5 or six kids. It’s like three became the norm and now only one or two is?? Just looking for thoughts on this. Do you think we’ve all lost focus on more important things?

I don’t think that everyone is emotionally or financially equipped to have 5+ children. I know I’m not. I can barely afford the two I have, and I am barely organized enough to handle them! I love them dearly, and they are the lights of my lives, but I really do know my limits.

 

[HollyElise]

Originally Posted by Sierrah
Ok first let me say that I’m single. I chose not to have children without being married and now it’s more than likely I will never have any but still I have to say I find all these threads about NFP troubling. It’s like everyone is out to do what they can to avoid children. I’m not for having 15 or 20 like the Duggars but whatever happened to the families of 5 or six kids. It’s like three became the norm and now only one or two is?? Just looking for thoughts on this. Do you think we’ve all lost focus on more important things?

I was raised in a family of nine children, in an area where many families are over the 5-children mark. My best friend is one of a dozen!
I know many young married people my age who are planning to have at least 4 children, so I don’t think that the focus has been lost - these are all young couples whose eyes are fixed squarely on God and His will for their lives, and they want to have children for the glory of God.
In the non-Christian world, I think we may also be starting to see a back-swing after these years of “one boy, one girl, that’s the perfect family”. Just a few days ago, this article ran in the Wall Street Journal - it’s called “The Case for Having More Kids”, but could easily be titled “The Case for Having Kids”
So don’t despair about the state of our world. There are still families who are convicted to let God be their family planner.
Just remember that sometimes God’s plan for the family is to be small. And by emotional preparedness, health or finances, God does make His plan known.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

I understand the point you are trying to get at. I too have never married and am now at an age where I doubt I will ever have kids. However, I was simply trying to point out that a married person with a couple of kids could easily be offended when a single, childless person suggests they have more kids.

One could argue that being single doesn’t exempt someone from this judgment. Just like a couple might use NFP or ABC because they want to avoid inconveniences of children, a person can avoid marriage altogether for that reason as well. I’m sure there are single people out there who didn’t listen when God called them to marriage. Or maybe it’s not the call to marriage that they miss, but the call to holiness, which leads to missed opportunity. I think that is rather similar to a married person who isn’t listening for God’s voice in their openness to (more) children. In the same way, one can’t judge from the outside.

Also, I did not sense from the OP that she wanted to discuss how we could change society so people could feel having more children is easier. I sensed she was upset that people want to use NFP (which is not a sin) and I felt it was coming into discussing people’s personal choices as opposed to society’s obligations.

CM

I don’t think the question should be how to make people feel having more children is easier. Having children is easier now than ever before in many ways. But children are still, and will always be, inconvenient. We don’t need to make it easier (for most people). A good societal change would be one in which people didn’t relegate the miracle of life to a hobby that should only be continued as long as it is fun, and one in which people understand that God’s Will is more important than any of our desires.

 

[Serap]

I have read some posts that have offended me about people choosing not to have more children - they are materialistic, selfish, etc.

Well I’m going to explain to you why I don’t want more children…

I am emotionally exhausted.

I have no extended family help - absolutely NO babysitters

My husband and I have not had a date in 3 years

My children overwhelm me emotionally (and my husband too)

My husband and I have been fighting terribly b/c of the stress and chaos in our lives

We are not materialistic…we drive a Dodge Grande Caravan (4 years old)

We don’t have any fancy gadgets like wide screen TV or expensive furniture

We have a lot of savings put away for our children instead

We are also slowly renovating our house b/c it’s too expensive to hire contractors

We both have to work to pay the bills (I go back to work this January)

We will have a live-in nanny that will use up all of my salary after I also pay our bills

My husband’s salary pays for the mortgage and our on-going renovations

If I had another child:

I think I’d be admitted

My husband and I would kill eachother

I would have NO money to even buy myself a chocolate bar

I would be emotionally and financially broke

I love my 2 children and it’s definitely the perfect number for our family. We are blessed and we will be able to manage our current family well. Adding another number to our family would likely tip us into a zone that could be dangerous for us.

I’d also like to add that I’m almost 40 and my husband is almost 42 and we are just feeling too old to add more also. It’s very draining.

 

[CradleCath]

I’ve often wondered about this myself. I’m the oldest child of 5 & my husband is the middle child of a family with 8 children. I remember the joy in my childhood family when a new baby was expected & what an absolute THRILL it was for me when my youngest sister was born. She was like my own personal baby doll. I would beg my parents to go out so that I could “babysit”. I recall my Dad having a piece of candy in his shirt pocket &, if the toddler in the family could find it, it would be theirs. Many, MANY good memories. Neither of my parents lived “through us” or “for us”, They were small business owners & very goal oriented…we were simply a sign of blessing from God & the icing on the cake.

from Scripture:
“Lo, children are a heritage of the Lord, and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man, so are children of the youth. Happy is the man whose quiver is full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.”

I think that the realization that God designed us to find the greatest JOY in serving others was lost. We came to believe that other things…a new home, a fancy car, a cruise etc., etc, would bring us more happiness than raising good, spiritually & physically sound little human beings. Yet, I see more divorces & broken homes out in those lovely suberbs, than I ever saw when living as a “farm wife & Mother”.

My husband & I raised 4 children. I stayed home & was primarily a wife & Mother & “farm hand”. He farmed & worked in a factory to make this possible. When our oldest started college & our youngest was
12, we needed more money & the farm had grown to the place that my husband needed to quit his factory job. God delivered me to a place where an outstanding career opportunity was almost** handed to me**. I became a manager of an exclusive shop & a few years later, the owner. Yes, we were then able to have a “few” of the nicer things in life, but could not have too many, as all 4 children wanted to attend college. They worked hard…took about any job they could get…& we worked hard & they all 4 graduated, have wonderful careers & now families of their own.

I ran my store for 30 yrs., retiring just a year & a half ago. I loved running my shop, I loved raising my kids. I think that the secret is, that parents THROW themselves into their children’s lives…go to the baseball games, the recitals, etc., etc., but ALWAYS keep just a tiny bit of their time & their mental energy for themselves…have their own dreams & goals. Mine were gardening & creating beauty for my home using my sewing machine. The children knew that when they saw Mom in the garden or creating with my s. machine, they had better not bother me unless it was an emergency.

One bit of advice…get a dog. Our’s was then a labrador retriever named Snowball. He helped us raise our children.

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=vera dicere;6778401] And you look at what kids these days have, so much junk, I grew up in the 80s with hand me down clothes, simple toys, I had one Barbie that lasted me my child hood, (even when I went through my Inquisition burning at the stake stage!) and we had a small black and white TV for most of it. And we turned out just fine. My parents would have had more kids if not for my mum being rendered infertile by illness.

The above is SO true. Today’s children have way more THINGS than they need. I have one son whose children were headed in that direction, when he finally put his foot down. Whenever his kids came to play baseball at our house, they came with 3 or 4 bats & a BAG FULL of balls. I’ll never forget the day when the first baseball hit, ended up in our timber & Sam headed to his bag for a second ball. My son stopped him & told him that, when he was a kid…there was ONE baseball &, if it was lost, the game could not proceed until it was found. I wish you could have seen his son’s face…that situation was totally inconceivable to him. ONE baseball?? no…couldn’t have been.

Thus began a whole new way of life for my son’s children & it has been good.

I’m single, 29, and childless (having never been married, you see) and it seems to me from what I see of my friends’ and family’s kids that they’re not interested in getting outside climbing tress and God forbid if you do have a black and white small TV. They want the best, playstations, computers, toys that are really just junk. I mean, the new Transformers toys? What a pile of rubbish! The dicast were so much sturdier!

I think its sad really. There were three kids in my family, and some people considered that too many!

I really hope its God’s will to get me to the altar soon cos I wanna pop out a stink load of kids! (I hoping on mutliples to get me there faster!!)

 

[mini_me640]

It’s good that CradleCath had good experiences being a child and then a mother to a larger family. It can be a great thing if that’s what you are called to do. But not everyone is called/equipped to handle 5 or more children. Those that are should not judge the motivations of those who aren’t, assuming they are all selfish and materialistic. Only each individual couple can discern God’s will for their family size. For some it may be 1 or 2 children and for others it may be 10… People also HAVE children for selfish reasons sometimes…

 

[mini_me640]

I’m single, 29, and childless (having never been married, you see) and it seems to me from what I see of my friends’ and family’s kids that they’re not interested in getting outside climbing tress and God forbid if you do have a black and white small TV. They want the best, playstations, computers, toys that are really just junk. I mean, the new Transformers toys? What a pile of rubbish! The dicast were so much sturdier!

I think its sad really. There were three kids in my family, and some people considered that too many!

I really hope its God’s will to get me to the altar soon cos I wanna pop out a stink load of kids! (I hoping on mutliples to get me there faster!!)

Plenty of kids today enjoy playing outside. When you were a child in the 80s, people in their 30s and 40s probably said our generation had too much stuff and we weren’t happy with what people had in their day. Every generation thinks the newer one is spoiled.

And on the red/bolded part, you may change your mind after actually having experienced pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting. You might wake up every morning for the first three months of your first child’s life exhausted and crying from depression. It’s easy to think it’s a breeze when you haven’t actually experienced it all yet.

 

[Serap]

I think that the realization that God designed us to find the greatest JOY in serving others was lost. We came to believe that other things…a new home, a fancy car, a cruise etc., etc, would bring us more happiness than raising good, spiritually & physically sound little human beings. Yet, I see more divorces & broken homes out in those lovely suberbs, than I ever saw when living as a “farm wife & Mother”.

I’m tired of reading that this is the reason why we choose to stop at 2 children.

Stop judging until you know what’s actually going on. It’s not fair to families who have chosen to have 2 or less children. There are valid reasons for this and it’s not a fancy car, etc.

It just really gets my skirt on fire.

 

[Serap]

It’s good that CradleCath had good experiences being a child and then a mother to a larger family. It can be a great thing if that’s what you are called to do. But not everyone is called/equipped to handle 5 or more children. Those that are should not judge the motivations of those who aren’t, assuming they are all selfish and materialistic. Only each individual couple can discern God’s will for their family size. For some it may be 1 or 2 children and for others it may be 10… People also HAVE children for selfish reasons sometimes…

AMEN!!!

 

[Sierrah]

Well, let me play the devils advocate here. If having children is what we should focus on, then my question to you is ‘Why aren’t you married with kids’.

I am sure that statement offended you. It is to make a point. Do not judge since you probably don’t like to be judged yourself. The most important thing is to do God’s will. Do I believe people plan their families according to God’s will. NO. I think probably most people (inside the church almost as often as outside the church) use ABC. But I do not judge. (mainly for fear of judging the couple who desperately want more kids and are suffereing because they can’t).

God is a just God. He knows that in our society it is harder to have kids than before. He will judge people accordingly

CM

Well lets just say it isn’t like I’ve wanted to be single. I gave dating a good try…for around 30 years…If I’m single today it’s not for lack of looking or trying. No I wasn’t offended by your question…just explaining.

 

[Serap]

And on the red/bolded part, you may change your mind after actually having experienced pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting. You might wake up every morning for the first three months of your first child’s life exhausted and crying from depression. It’s easy to think it’s a breeze when you haven’t actually experienced it all yet.

This is so so true. My DS had such bad colic and I am still getting over my PPD. I know I cannot handle anymore children. That’s how I feel right now. I feel too stretched emotionally and I have no family to help me. I often feel very isolated from lack of support…just wish I had a loving mother figure to listen to me vent and not judge me…I don’t even have that.

When I went from one child to two, I thought it would be a breeze…I thought…how hard could it possibly be? Man was I wrong…it turned my whole life and marriage upside down. I’m still trying to get my bearings.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

I’m tired of reading that this is the reason why we choose to stop at 2 children.

Stop judging until you know what’s actually going on. It’s not fair to families who have chosen to have 2 or less children. There are valid reasons for this and it’s not a fancy car, etc.

It just really gets my skirt on fire.

It isn’t why YOU stopped at 2 children. But you can’t deny that it is why SOME people stop at two. In fact, why MANY people stop at 2 (or 1 or 3). And I don’t think (well I hope so at least) this thread was meant to target members of CAF who have smaller sized families. That’s one of the reasons why so many people keep adding “we have to be careful not to judge” to our posts - to make the point that we’re not talking about those who have DISCERNED the decision to limit family size.

The point of this discussion is to recognize that there is a cultural/societal phenomenon happening, which results in many more families having fewer children than you would see if the culture as a whole was seeking to follow God’s Will. If the culture as a whole was following God’s Will, you’d still have faithful people like yourselves with smaller families, but there would also be an increase in the average family size. Knowing that disinterest in God’s will is not the problem of most CAF members (after all you wouldn’t be on here if you weren’t interested in God) doesn’t stop it from being true about a large segment of the secular population. We can’t not talk about this problem. It is a reality. And while we have to be careful not to judge people who have discerned the need to limit family size, and we have to avoid assuming we know the motives of each couple with a smaller family, we also have to recognize that there are many out there who don’t bother to discern, who could stand for a better understanding about kids/families/the meaning of life etc…

 

[Em_in_FL]

The point of this discussion is to recognize that there is a cultural/societal phenomenon happening, which results in many more families having fewer children than you would see if the culture as a whole was seeking to follow God’s Will. If the culture as a whole was following God’s Will, you’d still have faithful people like yourselves with smaller families, but there would also be an increase in the average family size. Knowing that disinterest in God’s will is not the problem of most CAF members (after all you wouldn’t be on here if you weren’t interested in God) doesn’t stop it from being true about a large segment of the secular population. We can’t not talk about this problem. It is a reality. And while we have to be careful not to judge people who have discerned the need to limit family size, and we have to avoid assuming we know the motives of each couple with a smaller family, we also have to recognize that there are many out there who don’t bother to discern, who could stand for a better understanding about kids/families/the meaning of life etc…

No, the thread was started here on CAF (presumably mostly people wanting to live their Catholic faith) questioning the use of NFP.
THAT’S why people get spun up on judging…

This discussion was not started to look at general society and smaller family size in non-catholic society - which I *agree *with you on… THAT is a *different *subject.

 

[CradleCath]

the above is so true. Today’s children have way more things than they need. I have one son whose children were headed in that direction, when he finally put his foot down. Whenever his kids came to play baseball at our house, they came with 3 or 4 bats & a bag full of balls. I’ll never forget the day when the first baseball hit, ended up in our timber & sam headed to his bag for a second ball. My son stopped him & told him that, when he was a kid…there was one baseball &, if it was lost, the game could not proceed until it was found. I wish you could have seen his son’s face…that situation was totally inconceivable to him. One baseball?? No…couldn’t have been.

Thus began a whole new way of life for my son’s children & it has been good.

so sorry, vera. I did not use the quote feature correctly & included your words in my post:

i’m single, 29, and childless (having never been married, you see) and it seems to me from what i see of my friends’ and family’s kids that they’re not interested in getting outside climbing tress and god forbid if you do have a black and white small tv. They want the best, playstations, computers, toys that are really just junk. I mean, the new transformers toys? What a pile of rubbish! The dicast were so much sturdier!

quote]
Good luck on your dream of a large family. I don’t know about the “multiples” though. :tiphat: I had 4 children in 6 years, & that was close enough for me. I, in fact, thought it ideal…until they grew up & left home for college. It felt like one day, I had a houseful of children & the next day, it was empty. Thank God, for sending a career my way, just at the right time.