When did children become an inconveniece?

[ac_claire]

CradleCath;6806453:

I’m sorry if I sound “preachy” about this subject. It’s just one I feel VERY strongly about. I know, of course, that you’re all good Catholic people. After all, you are using NFP when the majority of “Catholics” are using ABC.

It’s just that it’s getting hard to tell the difference between a Catholic family & a non-Catholic family, anymore.

I know exactly what you mean. I just get really uncomfortable hearing the same arguments I’ve heard forever for ABC coming from sooo many Catholic families. And believe it or not I really am sort of an NFP cheerleader in real life!! I just see the message that the Church doesn’t require any couple to use any method to avoid gets lost in the shuffle sometimes because people are so eager to praise NFP-avoiding over ABC-avoiding.

Not-avoiding at all is perfectly fine. Judging just by the Church’s own documents, not *avoiding *at all is what has been recommended more than anything else for a long, long time. It’s the principle at the heart of the Church’s pro-life position, IMO.

 

[Serap]

CradleCath;6806461:

I know exactly what you mean. I just get really uncomfortable hearing the same arguments I’ve heard forever for ABC coming from sooo many Catholic families. And believe it or not I really am sort of an NFP cheerleader in real life!! I just see the message that the Church doesn’t require any couple to use any method

to avoid gets lost in the shuffle sometimes because people are so eager to praise NFP-avoiding over ABC-avoiding.

Not-avoiding at all is perfectly fine. Judging just by the Church’s own documents, not *avoiding *at all is what has been recommended more than anything else for a long, long time. It’s the principle at the heart of the Church’s pro-life position, IMO.

That’s not what I read in Theology of the Body. It was written something like, that a couple discerns each month what they are called to do. That each time they avoid during the fertile stage, they are still open to life, but continue to discern what God is calling of them. The next month comes and they discern again together.

That is why NFP brings marriages closer. Their bodies are not lying to eachother and they are keeping God in the equation. That is the whole premise of NFP.

Everytime a married couple makes love, they are renewing their wedding vows and that includes being open to children. They are still open even if they choose to avoid that month.

 

[ac_claire]

That’s not what I read in Theology of the Body. It was written something like, that a couple discerns each month what they are called to do. That each time they avoid during the fertile stage, they are still open to life, but continue to discern what God is calling of them. The next month comes and they discern again together.

…That’s only **if **a couple decides to use NFP. The Church has been emphasizing it for the past 50 (??) or so years as a response to the artifical birth control crisis among Catholics. It’s certainly not required and I disagree that it necessarily “brings marriages closer”. I think it’s more like a tool; morally neutral in itself. Depends on how it’s used.

My point was (is) that I believe the fact the we don’t HAVE to use Natural Family Planning OR artificial birth control isn’t emphasized nearly enough. You read some of these forums or talk to some Catholic couples today and you’d think that using something to avoid/space children was the Church-sponsored default mode for families. Which is the opposite of the truth.

Just fyi, that quote you responded to, Serap, is from me, not CradleCath. (I had been responding to him/her. )

 

[Serap]

…That’s only **if **a couple decides to use NFP. The Church has been emphasizing it for the past 50 (??) or so years as a response to the artifical birth control crisis among Catholics. It’s certainly not required and I disagree that it necessarily “brings marriages closer”. I think it’s more like a tool; morally neutral in itself. Depends on how it’s used.

My point was (is) that I believe the fact the we don’t HAVE to use Natural Family Planning OR artificial birth control isn’t emphasized nearly enough. You read some of these forums or talk to some Catholic couples today and you’d think that using something to avoid/space children was the Church-sponsored default mode for families. Which is the opposite of the truth.

Just fyi, that quote you responded to, Serap, is from me, not CradleCath. (I had been responding to him/her. )

I read in Theology of the Body that NFP brings couples closer together.

Hey everything looks great on paper, but the reality is that we are all sinners.

 

[Julianna]

CradleCath;6806453:

I’m sorry if I sound “preachy” about this subject. It’s just one I feel VERY strongly about. I know, of course, that you’re all good Catholic people. After all, you are using NFP when the majority of “Catholics” are using ABC.

It’s just that it’s getting hard to tell the difference between a Catholic family & a non-Catholic family, anymore.

No…everyone has deep seeded thoughts on this topic…especially women. As a female we don’t (or shouldn’t) take lightly the creation of new life. We know we have to mentally ready to except the challenge. It is a challenge. It is the toughest job you will ever love.

In my early 20’s I was on the pill. Now, before you run me out of town with torches and pitchforks…I will tell you…it drove me nuts! My boyfriend/now my husband…said my emotions were all over the place…I became someone emotionally that he did not know. I gained 20 lbs…I felt “mentally” awful. I found out later that one of my aunts (moms side) went through the same thing. Needless to say…I told my gyn…I want OUT!

I cannot tell you what that chemical did to my mind (nevermind my body). I was one miserable person. Now with that said…I know friends at the time (and oh yeah, they are Catholic)…did not have these problems.

I don’t miss the monthly gift that is a for sure. I am now faced with menopause (at 52), still have the ovaries…and am dreading when I will have to make the decision to live with the symptoms or try chemical hormones. I don’t want to…I dread it. I know what happened last time.

I know you feel strongly about this topic and I do know what the Church says. I will tell you my daughter when through the same thing with the depo shot…stay away from it…it turns some women into pyscho’s. (not all)

If you can work with NFP, great. Both of our children were cycle planned…although we were not using NFP at the time.

Children are not an inconvenience…when planned with “their” best interest as far as raising, time and attention.

 

[rwillenborg]

I wonder what people in China will do now that there’s a shortage of girl children due to their attitudes toward female children. Maybe the girls will become highly prized instead of the boys.

This could be a whole other thread, but I just wanted to make a few comments on this, because you’re right - China’s got a very, very big problem on its harnds.
It’s 120 men to 100 women in china right now.
And, unfortunately, rather than the women who ARE around receiving much more respect, the trend they are seeing is an increase in prostitution and human trafficking.
42,000 women and children were freed from human traffickers between 2001 and 2003 in China. The rates continue to climb.
They are also finding tht the tendancy for ‘low-status’ males are that they become transient, and fall into criminal behavior. With little chance at finding a mate, establishing a family, and with little opportunity to grow their own fortunes, in areas with the highest disproportion of men to women, the crime rates have skyrocketed.
Oddly, in the countries surrounding China, the birth rates are actually LOWER than in China, and they do not employ the same draconian principles to family size. It would be fair to speculate that China would actually have a SMALLER population if this policy had not been in place, since the culture there is shifting to one which prefers smaller families.

 

[JadeStarr]

I found the post about the Chinese children very interesting. Thank you.

I don’t think that people should have children until they’re willing to commit one hundred percent to them, in terms of money, time and guidance.

 

[ac_claire]

I read in Theology of the Body that NFP brings couples closer together.

I believe that; I’m certain that it can bring a couple closer together **if **it’s not misused. All the Church’s documents and teachings about NFP (including Theology of the Body, if we’re talking about JPII’s teaching on it) warn about the potential for misuse or abuse of Natural Family Planning.

Hey everything looks great on paper, but the reality is that we are all sinners.

What looks great on paper?

 

[CradleCath]

I know exactly what you mean. I just get really uncomfortable hearing the same arguments I’ve heard forever for ABC coming from sooo many Catholic families. And believe it or not I really am sort of an NFP cheerleader in real life!! I just see the message that the Church doesn’t require any couple to use any method

 

[CradleCath]

No…everyone has deep seeded thoughts on this topic…especially women. As a female we don’t (or shouldn’t) take lightly the creation of new life. We know we have to mentally ready to except the challenge. It is a challenge. It is the toughest job you will ever love

 

[ac_claire]

Thank you for understanding my views on Catholic families. And the last line of your post blew me away. It’s been 50 years since I’ve heard a young mother say anything like that. I have no problem with anyone using NFP., I just intended to give a little hope to those who DO want to have 4-5 children. Everyone has been telling all of us for years that a big family is “too expensive”, “it’s too hard to give 4-5 children the love & attention they need” & on & on. That’s just not true if it’s really important to you. It can be done & done well. (Now, I’m done.

 

[ac_claire]

Thank you for understanding my views on Catholic families. And the last line of your post blew me away. It’s been 50 years since I’ve heard a young mother say anything like that. I have no problem with anyone using NFP., I just intended to give a little hope to those who DO want to have 4-5 children. Everyone has been telling all of us for years that a big family is “too expensive”, “it’s too hard to give 4-5 children the love & attention they need” & on & on. That’s just not true if it’s really important to you. It can be done & done well. (Now, I’m done.

Thank you, CradleCath. My husband and I have really appreciated all your posts.

 

[Consecrated]

…That’s only **if **a couple decides to use NFP. The Church has been emphasizing it for the past 50 (??) or so years as a response to the artifical birth control crisis among Catholics. It’s certainly not required and I disagree that it necessarily “brings marriages closer”. I think it’s more like a tool; morally neutral in itself. Depends on how it’s used.

My point was (is) that I believe the fact the we don’t HAVE to use Natural Family Planning OR artificial birth control isn’t emphasized nearly enough. **You read some of these forums or talk to some Catholic couples today and you’d think that using something to avoid/space children was the Church-sponsored default mode for families. **Which is the opposite of the truth.

Our experience has been similar. When we were preparing for marriage in 2002, we read a book called Husband and Wife (by Fr. Paul Wickens) which says that periodic continence may be practiced by couples with serious need. But the “ideal” is to allow God complete control over number and spacing of children. So, we thought, well why not shoot for the ideal. We chose not to attend NFP classes. By the grace of God, I have 0 health problems, and a cycle as regular as a clock, so I didn’t feel any medical need to chart-- still don’t. I had a job with benefits, and we counted on DH being able to land a job (Civil Eng.) right after graduation-- which, again by the grace of God, he did, but not before we were pregnant with our 2nd (1st surviving) child. So, with both good reasons for avoiding taken care of, we discerned with our spiritual director that we were making a good, prudential decision. We knew (and still know) where to turn should the need arise. We were stunned by the reaction this got from other, faithful Catholic couples. Most 1) assumed we would learn a method of NFP in marriage prep; 2) assumed we would make use of this method, if not to avoid children, as least to “draw closer as a couple”; and 3) thought we were nuts for “leaving it all in God’s hands”. The learning and practice of NFP were seen by them as a requirement for all marriages. It’s not. It’s a tool available for those who find themselves in need.

I will say this. It was (and is) our prayer and hope to be “generous” in receiving life. However, since the beginning of our marriage, God has shown us what generosity really is. It has been a humbling experience.

 

[Serap]

I believe that; I’m certain that it can bring a couple closer together **if **it’s not misused. All the Church’s documents and teachings about NFP (including Theology of the Body, if we’re talking about JPII’s teaching on it) warn about the potential for misuse or abuse of Natural Family Planning.

What looks great on paper?

How do you know that people are “misusing” NFP? Do you think I am misusing NFP b/c I’m going to avoid now that I’m almost 40 and have discerned that this is enough for my family?

All of the churches teaching “looks good on paper”…a priest I spoke to once used those exact words and also said, “but we are all sinners.”

 

[ac_claire]

How do you know that people are “misusing” NFP? Do you think I am misusing NFP b/c I’m going to avoid now that I’m almost 40 and have discerned that this is enough for my family?

No hon, I’m not gonna say whether I think you are misusing NFP or not. The fact is, I don’t know enough about your situation and I can’t read your heart. But we do know it happens. Like I said above, (and my own personal observations aside), every single document or teaching from the Church about NFP ackowledges and warns of the potential for misuse and abuse of NFP. So the abuse/misuse exists. That’s another reason the Church has had to repeatedly clarify and re-word what she means when it comes to the basic teachings on NFP.

All of the churches teaching “looks good on paper”…a priest I spoke to once used those exact words and also said, “but we are all sinners.”

Ah, ok. Well it’s definitely true that we’re all sinners. That much I understand. But we’re bound to try to learn and follow those teachings that look so good on paper nevertheless, right?

 

[Serap]

Ah, ok. Well it’s definitely true that we’re all sinners. That much I understand. But we’re bound to try to learn and follow those teachings that look so good on paper nevertheless, right?

Exactly, but we all “screw up” from time to time even if we have the best and holiest of intentions.

Someone could be misusing NFP and not even realize it.

 

[Rach620]

I can’t find anything about NFP (or birth control in general) in Deus Caritas Est. Is that the right encyclical?

Deus Caritas Est speaks of eros and agape and the need for agape to purify eros. It does not explicitly mention NFP (no encyclical does, actually; “periodic continence” are discussed only in Humanae Vitae, the TOB, and maybe Casti Conubii).

IMO, the first 15 paragraphs or so of Deus Caritas Est can and should be read in the light of JP2’s TOB. Many of the themes and language are the same and shed light on one another. This thematic continuity can be found, for example, in these quotes from DCE:

“An intoxicated and undisciplined eros, then, is not an ascent in “ecstasy” towards the Divine, but a fall, a degradation of man. Evidently, eros needs to be disciplined and purified if it is to provide not just fleeting pleasure, but a certain foretaste of the pinnacle of our existence, of that beatitude for which our whole being yearns.” - paragraph 4

“Earlier we spoke of the process of purification and maturation by which eros comes fully into its own, becomes love in the full meaning of the word. It is characteristic of mature love that it calls into play all man’s potentialities; it engages the whole man, so to speak. Contact with the visible manifestations of God’s love can awaken within us a feeling of joy born of the experience of being loved. But this encounter also engages our will and our intellect. Acknowledgment of the living God is one path towards love, and the “yes” of our will to his will unites our intellect, will and sentiments in the all- embracing act of love.” - paragraph 17

As a cross-reference, specific audiences from Pope John Paul II’s theology of the body speak more specifically to what I was getting at–that periodic continence can help married couples learn virtue, grow in holiness, and purify their love.

“The whole practice of the honorable regulation of fertility, which is so strictly tied to responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is part of Christian conjugal and familial spirituality; and only if one lives ‘according to the Spirit’ does it become interiorly true and authentic.” - TOB 131:6

“If conjugal chastity…manifests itself at first as an ability to resist the concupiscence of the flesh, it subsequently reveals itself as a singular ability to perceive, love, and realize those meanings of the ‘language of the body’ that remain completely unknown to concupiscence itself and progressively enrich the spousal dialogue of the couple by purifying, deepening, and at the same time simplifying it….the ascesis of continence…does not impoverish ‘affective manifestations’ [of love] but, on the contrary, it makes them spiritually more intense and thus enriches them.” - TOB 128:3

“Continence develops the personal communion of man and woman, a communion that cannot be formed and developed in the full truth of its possibilities on the ground of concupiscence alone.” - TOB 130:5

“Continence itself is a definite and permanent moral attitude, it is a virtue, and thus the whole mode of behavior guided by it becomes virtuous. The encyclical underlines rather clearly that here it is not merely a question of a certain ‘technique,’ but of ethics in the strict sense of the term as the morality of a certain behavior.
For this reason, the encyclical is right to highlight, on the one hand, the need in such behavior for reverence in relation to the order established by the Creator and, on the other hand, the need for an immediate motivation of an ethical character.” - TOB 124:4 (the encyclical he is referencing is Humanae Vitae)

Those are just a few references to get you started. Sorry for the delay in responding–I’ve been out of town and sick. I also apologize if the connection I’m making here isn’t clear. All I’m saying is that there is a positive theological explanation to be made for NFP and its prayerful use by married couples.

 

[benny_f]

Ok first let me say that I’m single. I chose not to have children without being married and now it’s more than likely I will never have any but still I have to say I find all these threads about NFP troubling. It’s like everyone is out to do what they can to avoid children. I’m not for having 15 or 20 like the Duggars but whatever happened to the families of 5 or six kids. It’s like three became the norm and now only one or two is?? Just looking for thoughts on this. Do you think we’ve all lost focus on more important things?

As horrible as this sounds, people can’t afford six kids anymore. The standard of living is too high, and if you want your kids to go to college, you need money, something you won’t have unless you’re rich.

I have five other siblings, and I would not recommend a large brood if you don’t have the money; it’s unfair on the children and a little selfish to be frank

Growing up my family had nothing. We had to rely on the State to provide us with money so we could get uniforms or even school books. It used to break my mother’s heart that we couldn’t go to summer camps, or even join clubs, because we **never **had any money for what we saw as “luxuries”. As a by- product of not having the money to get involved in activites, we developed poor social skills, and to this day I get panic attacks if I have to talk to large groups of people. While my childhood was happy, I lived in poverty for years and I’m telling you now, it was extremely hard to tell your friends “sorry I can’t come to your party” because you couldn’t even afford to buy a small present. It was even harder when you couldn’t throw your own birthday party. To this day I’ve never had a birthday party, it doesn’t make me sad any longer, but boy it did when I was younger.

It’s up to the individual, but honestly, having been a child in a large family with no money, I think it’s better to have two or three. At least then you can afford to send them to college or even send them to a summer camp.

 

[dontknow]

As horrible as this sounds, people can’t afford six kids anymore. The standard of living is too high, and if you want your kids to go to college, you need money, something you won’t have unless you’re rich.

I totally support, understand and agree with your statements.

I’m sorry that you had it so difficult and I know of others who had the same - all with the same reference on how many kids to have now.

 

[Momofmyangels]

As horrible as this sounds, people can’t afford six kids anymore. The standard of living is too high, and if you want your kids to go to college, you need money, something you won’t have unless you’re rich.

I have five other siblings, and I would not recommend a large brood if you don’t have the money; it’s unfair on the children and a little selfish to be frank

Growing up my family had nothing. We had to rely on the State to provide us with money so we could get uniforms or even school books. It used to break my mother’s heart that we couldn’t go to summer camps, or even join clubs, because we **never **had any money for what we saw as “luxuries”. As a by- product of not having the money to get involved in activites, we developed poor social skills, and to this day I get panic attacks if I have to talk to large groups of people. While my childhood was happy, I lived in poverty for years and I’m telling you now, it was extremely hard to tell your friends “sorry I can’t come to your party” because you couldn’t even afford to buy a small present. It was even harder when you couldn’t throw your own birthday party. To this day I’ve never had a birthday party, it doesn’t make me sad any longer, but boy it did when I was younger.

It’s up to the individual, but honestly, having been a child in a large family with no money, I think it’s better to have two or three. At least then you can afford to send them to college or even send them to a summer camp.

This is sad and I am very sorry this was your experience growing up. I do, however think it is unfair to say that it is selfish to have a large family even if they are not rich. Money is not everything, not to say though that it does make things easier. I grew up with 5 siblings and while we certainly did not have “all the luxuries” of life, we were happy with what we did have and we (all six of us) graduated from college or a trade school without our parents paying for it because they could not afford it. We all paid our own way knowing our parents were there to help, while not financially but any other way they could. It did not harm us in any way, rather it taught us all valuable life lessons…we are all responsible, hard working adults. I have 6 children of my own now and while we have college funds for them all, it will in no way be enough, but, I know if they are dedicated and willing to work for what they want they will certainly succeed and my husband and I will be behind them all the way. It just makes me very sad when I hear that it is selfish to accept such a precious gift of a child from God.