S
Servant19
Guest
What an excellent post Matthew!!
A lovely summary of the Bahai concept of unity
.
- Status
A lovely summary of the Bahai concept of unity
.
S
Servant19
Guest
Worship Jesus Christ…go ahead
The Bahai religion praises those who truly worship Jesus, and follow His commandments.
There’s a difference between worshipping a “foreign god” like Marilyn Manson, and worshipping Jesus Christ, let’s get some perspective…
The thing is, that through interpretations of those who “claim” to be guided by the Holy Spirit, some religions have created their own idols.
What is the difference between Marilyn Manson and the pastor down my road saying that the Holy Spirit has guided him to teach abstinence from socialising with non-Christians?
I think you will find that there are a whole lot of teachings in true Christianity and the Bahai Faith which are one and the same, either in word or in spirit, or both.
These are the points of focus.
Nothing else matters in the eyes of God.
.
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
We all know what you mean by worship. It is not the same worship you give to God the almighty which is beyond all description and but our words only reflect but a partial understanding of his glory, right? Worship in the way you use it in your sentence above, is only a deep reverence, very high but not the worship due to the one God. Or do you offer the same worship to all the divine manifestations? I hope not, if only for the sake of your monotheism. But if Christians are wrong and Jesus is a creature, merely obedient to God, what is the difference in worshiping him or whomever? Sure, you regard Jesus as a super spirit whom was with God for all eternity, but you also believe the universe eternal and that the universe reflects the divine as well. You however don’t think we can worship the universe and recognize the absurdity of that statement by saying we shouldn’t worship Marilyn manson who is a product of the universe.Worship Jesus Christ…go ahead
The Bahai religion praises those who truly worship Jesus, and follow His commandments.
There’s a difference between worshipping a “foreign god” like Marilyn Manson, and worshipping Jesus Christ, let’s get some perspective…
The thing is, that through interpretations of those who “claim” to be guided by the Holy Spirit, some religions have created their own idols.
What is the difference between Marilyn Manson and the pastor down my road saying that the Holy Spirit has guided him to teach abstinence from socialising with non-Christians?
I think you will find that there are a whole lot of teachings in true Christianity and the Bahai Faith which are one and the same, either in word or in spirit, or both.
These are the points of focus.
Nothing else matters in the eyes of God.
.
But since you made this claim. The thing is, that through interpretations of those who “claim” to be guided by the Holy Spirit, some religions have created their own idols. Give an example as to what religion. I’m sure you have in mind Christianity right. Or are we blameless before God? In so far as preserving the truth is concerned? (So don’t bring up our moral deficiencies as if we were not already aware of them or history, its irrelevant to my question) Or have we erred and corrupted the faith partially? If the answer is the second, i ask that you demonstrate it, when where and how.
I also disagree that you could agree with the teachings of the Christian faith. I would quote the bible but you would merely interpret it differently than Christians. Although i think it has been shown in the past the bahai interpretation wanting. I think it here appropriate to quote certain fathers whom I think you would have to maintain as mistaken, those closest to the apostles for instance. I maintain if you are to say Christianity has been corrupted, you should say it was done right from the get go, literally as soon as Jesus was killed.
Consider Ignatius to the Ephesians
For some are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom you must flee as you would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom you must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible— even Jesus Christ our Lord.
He tells the Ephesians to avoid heretics, to not associate with them (in this case being the gnostics). To be on gaurd against them. The bahai faith which is ultra inclusivist (except when you attempt to join, in which case you must submit yourself to a canon of presribed doctrines and dogmas, even if you don’t call it that) cannot possiblly accede to Ignatius on any level. You would say to Ignatius calmly if he were still alive. “Brother why are you not accepting those who merely say and believe different things than you? We are all one in humanity, we all have the one God? Why cannot we be one in action as well as our spirit?”
To which I imagine Ignatius saying something like this.
“Do not err… Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 1Corinthians 6:9-10 If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him. Be not anointed with the bad odour of the doctrine of the prince of this world; let him not lead you away captive from the life which is set before you. And why are we not all prudent, since we have received the knowledge of God, which is Jesus Christ? Why do we foolishly perish, not recognising the gift which the Lord has of a truth sent to us?”
To which, if you persist in the current argument would have to say. “Look brother, we do not disagree. Let there be no talk of hell fire because there is no such thing. Christ rose from the dead spiritually, we have no need of the Christian communion.”
To which Ignatius might say. “I… entreat you that you use Christian nourishment only, and abstain from herbage of a different kind; I mean heresy. For those [that are given to this] mix up Jesus Christ with their own poison, speaking things which are unworthy of credit,”
And to which I might add, “You say we do not disagree, yet you constantly try to reinterpret our phrases into something we didn’t mean.”
There is another thread for discussing whether we are one same religion. I will respond to you there should you choose to respond to me here.
D
drac16
Guest
My belief about Peter and the rest of Jesus’ disciples is that he affirmed Tawheed, which is the absolute oneness of God and the complete dissimilarity between God and the creation. Most christians today believe in Trinitarianism, which is the belief that God is three persons and that at one point in history, He became a man. Both of those are contrary to Tawheed; since I believe that Jesus Christ himself believed in Tawheed, it would follow that his disciples also believed in Tawheed.
By ‘the basket story’ I assume you’re talking about Paul narrowly escaping assassination [in 2 Corinthians 11]? what about it? Paul was nearly killed for his beliefs. So what?
I will repeat, I have no idea who the first muslim was, who was not only able to read, but also knew the content of Deuteronomy 18 and hence, read verse 18 and believed that Muhammad [peace be upon him] was the one being foretold therein. No offence, but how on earth do you expect me to answer that?
The earliest muslim that I’m aware of who specifically stated that Deuteronomy 18:18 foretold Muhammad [peace be upon him] is a man whom is commonly known as Ibn Kathir [may Allah have mercy on him]. In his book ‘Stories of the Prophets’, page 250, Ibn Kathir [may Allah have mercy on him] quotes surah 7:155-157 of the Qur’an and says, in a footnote on the same page, that this shows a parallel between that and Deuteronomy 18:18 (he mentions a few other Bible verses as well.
Ibn Kathir lived in the 1300s. What’s interesting to note is that Ibn Kathir was a contemporary of Ibn Taymiyyah [may Allah be pleased with them], who happens to be one of the most influential Islamic scholars of all time.
S
Servant19
Guest
You say that we do not worship Jesus, yes we do.
You say we do not worship Baha’u’llah, yes we do.
You say that we are no monotheistic, yes we are…
You say that we are polytheistic, yet in the same breath accuse us of worshipping Jesus as a mere creature. Bizarre!!
Consider this…
There are billions of minerals present on earth, yet they all belong to the Mineral Kingdom. If I worship sand, charcoal, diamonds and crystals, does that make me a worshipper of many minerals? What if I said that I was a worshipper of the entire Mineral Kingdom?
There are billions of plants in the world, yet they all belong to the Vegetable Kingdom. If I worship the daffodil, the oak tree, the rose and the olive tree, does that make me a worshipper of many vegetations? I declare that I worship the Vegetable Kingdom!
In like manner, Baha’is worship the Kingdom of the Manifestation of God, Eternal Logos, not the “physical” aspect. Baha’is consider the physical world but a reflection of TRUE REALITY which is the World of the Kingdom. The World of the Kingdom is where things are really at, Ignatian, not this world of multiples. The World of the Kingdom is a singularity, where unity is truly expressed.
So, no, Baha’is are not polytheists, but we worship the Manifestation of God as ONE BEING, which manifests itself in this World of Physicality as separate Physical Entities.
We WORSHIP Them as a single God. We do however know that they are epistemologically a One God, although ontologically they are not God at all.
.
D
dronald
Guest
Do you know what happened to Peter and his followers Jesus departed? When about did he die and did he plant any Church’s/Mosques?
The same Paul that spoke of the basket, which is a story that you can accept is the same Paul who spoke of meeting up with the Apostles three years later, which is also in the Acts story. So if the basket story is true, did Paul know Peter personally? As you know he constantly spoke of his relationship with Peter and the Acts records their relationship as well.
Do you believe the relationship was non-existent?
I understand that you are saying you don’t know who the first was, I was just looking for the earliest you know about which you provided. So thanks for that, I appreciate it.
Which is extremely concerning considering what Ibn Kathir used to write. What do you think of his prefacing mention of the Jew’s with “may Allah”s continued curse fall on them until the Day of Resurrection”
or his commentary on Surah 4 vs 157: “When Allah sent “˜Isa [Jesus] with proofs and guidance, the Jews, may Allah”s curses, anger, torment and punishment be upon them, envied him because of his prophethood and obvious miracles”
I know he has many explanations on warfare that I won’t get into right now. But my question is, is he really the person we want influencing Muslims?
M
Matthew_Light
Guest
Vomit.
M
Matthew_Light
Guest
Not ignore them. I find them rather interesting and beautiful!
I love the way Catholics celebrate Mass. I love Christian music sung in choirs, especially the older works from hundreds of years ago.
I love the beauty of Islamic Prayer, its movements and its humility before God.
I love Jewish rituals, the passover seder and all the special holidays with their stories.
I don’t ignore the differences, I celebrate them.
Yes, Jesus Christ is a wonderful idea of God. A perfect being who shone God’s light perfectly upon a sinful world.
Indeed, this is what the Baha’i Writings say about this:
“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.”
I believe it is an inspired holy book. I like what Abdu’l-Baha wrote about it:
“THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.”
God had different rules and expectations for humanity at different stages of our socio-cultural development.
For example, in this day and age, Baha’u’llah has outlawed slavery and enjoined equality between men and women.
And you will find most people recognize these are God’s standards, despite the fact that past dispensations allowed slavery and did not treat men and women as equals.
I don’t. What is of immense importance is our relationship with God, our inspiration by the holy spirit and our willingness to act on that inspiration, our love and service to humanity.
All religions enjoin truthfulness, mercy, love, compassion on the weak, service to the world of humanity, remembrance of God / Reality, control over sexual behavior, and the spiritual importance of our behavior in this life.
But we aren’t very different. We both want to serve God, to do what is right, to be honest, kind and loving, to spend our o-so-few days in His service.
The main difference is you want to have one belief system defeat all the other belief systems, and I don’t think that’s necessary, possible, nor helpful in making this world better.
M
marywarfield
Guest
I’m sorry Matthew but I don’t see any difference in
what you are saying from any of the politicians on a
good day in the US Senate. Your views are very secular
in nature.
M
marywarfield
Guest
C.S Lewis would disagree with you. To the chargeWorship Jesus Christ…go ahead
The Bahai religion praises those who truly worship Jesus, and follow His commandments.
There’s a difference between worshipping a “foreign god” like Marilyn Manson, and worshipping Jesus Christ, let’s get some perspective…
The thing is, that through interpretations of those who “claim” to be guided by the Holy Spirit, some religions have created their own idols.
What is the difference between Marilyn Manson and the pastor down my road saying that the Holy Spirit has guided him to teach abstinence from socialising with non-Christians?
I think you will find that there are a whole lot of teachings in true Christianity and the Bahai Faith which are one and the same, either in word or in spirit, or both.
These are the points of focus.
Nothing else matters in the eyes of God.
.
of defending one’s faith making a person-gasp-
divisive he pointed out one could simply discuss
“mere Christianity”- those points we all agree on.
As you may know he compared that to a virtual
no man’s land or as he cleverly put it a person
who lives in the common hallway of his house
without every entering into one of it’s rooms
and living fully. One can use the hallway as a means of
traveling to the rooms but it’s the room that is meant
to be lived in.
We have a responsibility to look around to see
if we are actually maintaining and living in our house
as it was provided for us rather than taking the safe
non committed way out of remaining only in those
principles we all agree on.
You are advocating the “mere Christianity” approach
of remaining in the foyer with everyone performing introductions anc
exclaiming
what a pleasure it is to meet you and never moving
into the actual home they’ve been invited to.
M
Matthew_Light
Guest
I’m not quite sure what you mean.
Secular people don’t pray and fast and bow down on their knees before God every day. Religious people do.
What part of my views are secular?
D
daler
Guest
Mary,
. I do not know Servant personally, other than getting to know him here in the forum I mean, but I think that I can very much assure you that he is not taking “the safe and non committed way…”
. Are you aware of the fact that his cousin was killed for his beliefs less than a year ago? I strongly suggest that he did not take “the safe and non committed way…”, nor would Servant.
. The aunt of my children and her little ones were imprisoned some years ago for their refusal to recant their Faith. They threatened her by stating they would kill her children if she did not divulge the whereabouts of her husband, whom they intended to kill, along with whoever might be with him. I can assure you that the Baha’is do not take “the safe and non committed way…”
. The night following this threat, she had a dream in which Abdul Baha (the son of Baha’u’llah) appeared to her and assured her that everything was in God’s hands. When the mullahs came the next morning, renewing their threats, she told them: “Do as you wish. I cannot tell you where he is.” Was this a “safe and non committed way”??
. They were released, and fled over the mountains to Pakistan where they endured for two years in a refugee camp before relatives could finally get them out. The daughter was so ill she lost her hair. It eventually grew back, and she became a dentist, while her brother became a doctor.
. We could tell you a hundred stories like this. Stories of incredible courage and strong faith which withstands the most fierce oppression the fanatics can apply. In a single day they hung ten women, one after the other, trying to break them, back in 1983. One of my daughters is named after the youngest one, Mona, who was imprisoned at age 16. She was the last of these heroic women to die that day, rather than recant their faith in Baha’u’llah.
.
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Since it seems evident that our bahai guests have no intention of showing how the early church was corrupted or whatever. I won’t respond to you here, but instead in private. Your responses have confirmed the worst about bahai for me, if that is a consolation.
To drac, I can only ask how the Muslim can posit anything concerning the historical character of the church. Ultimately you are bound to the quran and what it says concerning the church and so for a Muslim to do any serious history with the sources we have, namely the new testament and various Jewish sources you can only but assume a Muslim outlook by Christ.
Perhaps we need that islamic perspective in the historical investigation of Jesus and the early church but its always going to beg the question, is that your Islam influencing your opinion or solid historical argumentation? You argued the apostles would have upheld tawheed and that needs to be demonstrated on the apostles on terms and not on us from a modern day perspective forcing that on them.
I’m not saying we can be distanced from our faith in anything or that Christians are not guilty of this in their reading of the New testament, certainty they are. NT Wright I think points out none of us are totally separated from ourselves in historical investigation and we come and approach it with our views influencing our reading. I’m not convinced that the apostles had this belief in Unitarianism, you need to argue for it.
To drac, I can only ask how the Muslim can posit anything concerning the historical character of the church. Ultimately you are bound to the quran and what it says concerning the church and so for a Muslim to do any serious history with the sources we have, namely the new testament and various Jewish sources you can only but assume a Muslim outlook by Christ.
Perhaps we need that islamic perspective in the historical investigation of Jesus and the early church but its always going to beg the question, is that your Islam influencing your opinion or solid historical argumentation? You argued the apostles would have upheld tawheed and that needs to be demonstrated on the apostles on terms and not on us from a modern day perspective forcing that on them.
I’m not saying we can be distanced from our faith in anything or that Christians are not guilty of this in their reading of the New testament, certainty they are. NT Wright I think points out none of us are totally separated from ourselves in historical investigation and we come and approach it with our views influencing our reading. I’m not convinced that the apostles had this belief in Unitarianism, you need to argue for it.
S
Servant19
Guest
Ignatian, can you show us Baha’is where we have stated that Christianity was corrupted?
I admit, I used the word “corrupted” once, but I then went on to clarify what exactly I meant by it.
Would you mind telling me what you mean by “corruption” please?
.
P
Pat_Albertson
Guest
When did it become corrupt? Oh . . . I donno . . . probably when Eve started listening to the serpent in the garden . . . 
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Time and again you have said (Or other bahai have said) pure Christianity was diluted as the teachings of men came to replace the teachings of Christ. Now you might not use the word corruption, but essentially that’s what it is, if we have preferred men’s words over the divine.Ignatian, can you show us Baha’is where we have stated that Christianity was corrupted?
I admit, I used the word “corrupted” once, but I then went on to clarify what exactly I meant by it.
Would you mind telling me what you mean by “corruption” please?
.
But if you think Christianity has it all right, then alright. I do question why you would even bother giving your perspective, as if yours was better than ours. You don’t believe your perspective or the bahai religion is superior to ours right?
S
Servant19
Guest
Ignatian, I asked you this question a few days ago but got no answer.
Why do you think there is an Orthodox Church whose adherents and congregations claim “We are not Catholics!”
What do you think caused this separation and segregation?
.
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I could tell you, but you deny we contradict each other so you wouldn’t understand. I mean what can I say to convince you we genuinely contradict each other when you aren’t even convinced you contradict Christianity itself? Not to mention that our differences do not then automatically go on to prove that the entire system of thought in either branch is therefore the teaching of men.
Are you going to make the argument that Christianity does not possess the genuine teaching of Christ? Why can’t you be satisfied in knowing that for a certain time, God thought it necessary that we have our doctrines and creeds? Practices of monogamy and virginity and etc? Why do you need to buttress the claim against Christians with that we have not believed what Christ actually taught?
Is it because you seem to understand the need for consistency in the revelations? That the idea of Christianity as it is not being a product of corruption through an ingenious preistcraft poses a big problem to bahai?
I don’t think you’ll come out and admit it however. But please, if you aren’t going to discuss whether or not the Christian faith has been diluted or corrupted or whatever non offensive word you want to use for “Christians do not have the real teachings of Christ, rather we bahai do, though that doesn’t make you Christians wrong, or heathen or idolators or anything. It only means that you have received man made traditions which are good and right and I wouldn’t dare tell you not to believe in them. But they are man made however.”
M
Matthew_Light
Guest
Actually, Baha’u’llah answers your particular question directly:
“We fain would hope that the people of Bahá may be guided by the blessed words: ‘Say: all things are of God.’ This exalted utterance is like unto water for quenching the fire of hate and enmity which smouldereth within the hearts and breasts of men. By this single utterance contending peoples and kindreds will attain the light of true unity.”
M
marywarfield
Guest
I’m not speaking personally here to you or Servant
or anyone else. Yes it’s awful that these sufferings
occur.
My point is believing somehow we all put our differences
aside, deny doctrines that conflict in the interests
of peace is not the answer. In other words
concentrating on just what we have in common which
of course is we don’t want our loved ones killed- that
is a commonality.
Our religions DO contradict each other on this forum.
Denying that in order to not be seen as divisive is not
the answer.
- Status