When did 'Fr. Smith' become "Fr. Jimmy'

[Ophelia23]

I like the Southern tradition of addressing elders by Ms. or Mr. using the title followed by the first name, as in Miss Molly.

I didn’t realize this was a Southern tradition, but I suppose that does make sense! I have taught my daughter to refer to adults that we are familiar with by Miss or Mr. followed by their first name. For examples, our neighbors are Miss Deb and Mr. Mark.

 

[dshix]

When I was a kid in the 70’s we still referred to all priest by their last names…

When did that change? Do you still call priests by their last name?

I just kind of noticed this for some reason…

I’ve noticed that EF parishes tend to call their priests by the last name, and OF parishes are mixed, based on preference.

I don’t know if that’s where it is everywhere, but that’s how it is here.

 

[Razanir]

I’ve noticed that EF parishes tend to call their priests by the last name, and OF parishes are mixed, based on preference.

I don’t know if that’s where it is everywhere, but that’s how it is here.

Back home we have one priest who uses his first name and one who uses his last name. The first name priest is actually the older one. So I guess it really is just preference

 

[babochka]

Can I side-track here a bit and ask why to Latin Catholics refer to their priest by their last name? Because that is not their baptismal name.

To add to this, we Byzantines refer to our bishops by their first names as well. For example, my bishop is Bishop Gerald Dino, or Bishop Gerald. When we use the title “Father”, that conveys both respect and a familial relationship. He is our spiritual father and we are his spiritual children. It would be strained and awkward if we referred to our actual father with such formality.

That’s just my 2 cents worth. I’ll gladly go along with whatever an individual priest prefers. I went to (Roman) Catholic school in the 70s. At school, it was Father O’Reilley. At church (Byzantine), it was Father Dennis.

 

[ConstantineTG]

To add to this, we Byzantines refer to our bishops by their first names as well. For example, my bishop is Bishop Gerald Dino, or Bishop Gerald. When we use the title “Father”, that conveys both respect and a familial relationship. He is our spiritual father and we are his spiritual children. It would be strained and awkward if we referred to our actual father with such formality.

That’s just my 2 cents worth. I’ll gladly go along with whatever an individual priest prefers. I went to (Roman) Catholic school in the 70s. At school, it was Father O’Reilley. At church (Byzantine), it was Father Dennis.

My guess is Western standards of respect. I hope someone can come in and give us the scoop on this.

 

[DebChris]

When and where did this originate? The RC priests I know we’ve addressed by First Name. In the East the Baptismal name is so important (or ordination name if the deacon/priest/bishop takes up one) that you would never address someone by their family name. I’m wondering why there is a disconnect here between East and West. Can you or someone explain to me the origins of this extensive use of last name? I know Cardinals most famously are almost referred to exclusively by their last name.

I don’t know when the surname because the sign of respect and address in the West. I know that it places the surname as more important than the given name. In the West, people write their first name followed by their family name.
As a child I lived in Japan where the given name follows the family name. In East Asian countries the family is considered more important than any individual within the family.
It is my understanding that last names were added to given names to avoid confusion as populations grew. Which Willam are we talking about? Is it the miller’s son or the smith’s?

Members of the Abbey that ran the school where I first attended college all received religious names. I did not know family names, with few exceptions. As I think about it, all were priests. These included the college chaplain, my governemt teacher, my German teacher, and one who also served as Chaplain for the nearby Army base. In other words, all taught while also serving in other capacities.

The Bishop who saw over this vicariate is always addressed using both his first and last name while we refer to the current bishop by his first name. Pastors for both this parish and my home parish are introduced by Father nickname. One is from the Phillipines, and the other from Vietnam. It does not diminish eirher priest’s dignity. Written correspondance uses both given and family names.

 

[chaunceygardner]

In many cultures, a person is known primarily by their given (first) name. The other names are what connect that person to their parents and other family members or where they are from. This was true in many European countries up until fairly recently. I don’t think that has any connection to Catholic priests, other than that in some places it is and was common to refer to a priest by their first name.

Growing up, everyone called priests “Father (last name)”; over the past few decades the trend has moved to using the first name, so that I rarely hear the last name, unless it is used together with the first name to further identify the priest (“contact Father Pat Riley about…”). The point about non-U.S. priests is a good one, as there have been four different priests from India (try pronouncing most of those last names!) at the last two parishes I have been at. They all told us to use their first names. I called a religious order priest today who answered the phone: “Father Tom”. When the Bishop was at our parish he referred to our two priests by their first names.

So I think in many places the use of first names has become much more common place. However, everyone seems to use last names when addressing or talking about bishops.

 

[Allegra]

I think it depends on the priest, how they want to be addressed by other adults. I don’t think it’s appropriate for kids to call their priest Fr. Bob though. (Especially if he’s a teacher or principal at their school!)

 

[dshix]

My guess is Western standards of respect. I hope someone can come in and give us the scoop on this.

Constantine, it’s just a matter of culture. You may speak of “how strange the Western ways are” or “how out of connection the West is to the East,” but you must understand that your ways seem just as strange to us as ours are to you; it’s just a different culture.

In some cases it may seem disrespectful to call a priest by the first name; in other times, not. There’s no rule or standard for it.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I think it changed a little before the Leader of the Free World started signing e-mails with his first name.

When I was a kid in the 70’s we still referred to all priest by their last names…

When did that change? Do you still call priests by their last name?

I just kind of noticed this for some reason…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Constantine, it’s just a matter of culture. You may speak of “how strange the Western ways are” or “how out of connection the West is to the East,” but you must understand that your ways seem just as strange to us as ours are to you; it’s just a different culture.

In some cases it may seem disrespectful to call a priest by the first name; in other times, not. There’s no rule or standard for it.

But should it be Christian culture rather than whatever prevailing secular culture there is? As I said earlier, there is value in our given name. When we receive Sacraments that name is invoked, the grace of God is given to that name. That includes ordination, I doubt anyone is ordained by their last name.

 

[dshix]

But should it be Christian culture rather than whatever prevailing secular culture there is? As I said earlier, there is value in our given name. When we receive Sacraments that name is invoked, the grace of God is given to that name. That includes ordination, I doubt anyone is ordained by their last name.

Very true, but I consider this issue to be rather unimportant, and I think that the Church has bigger fish to fry than trying to force all its members to have a universal way of addressing our priests.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Very true, but I consider this issue to be rather unimportant, and I think that the Church has bigger fish to fry than trying to force all its members to have a universal way of addressing our priests.

I think it is very important. Our relationships with our priests help foster the growth of our own spirituality. We can’t become better Christians alone, we need the grace of God and this is enacted not only through the Sacraments but through the Church, which is the gathering of believers. If we can’t have a good relationship with our priest, how can we have a good guide in our faith?

 

[dshix]

I think it is very important. Our relationships with our priests help foster the growth of our own spirituality. We can’t become better Christians alone, we need the grace of God and this is enacted not only through the Sacraments but through the Church, which is the gathering of believers. If we can’t have a good relationship with our priest, how can we have a good guide in our faith?

I can’t really disagree with you with issue itself, but I will say this:

Where I live, I’m seeing the Church go through VERY hard times. Cafeteria Catholics are extremely common, abortion, contraception, SSA, sexual promiscuity, and a myriad of other things run rampant. Right now is not a time for the Church to deal with petty issues that have no sin involved. We need to fight against Satan who is making direct attacks on all of our weak places.

Where you live it might be a bunny’s haven, but not here. Oh, no.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Religious are called by their first names. Many of them take a ‘religious’ name when they enter, but not all. The Pope is called by his first name and in the past it was his actual first name (ie Pope Peter) but after one changed his name on elevation because he had an unfortunate pagan name (like Zeus), it has become traditional.

I have known many priests throughout the years who were known as Fr FirstName and they were not always religious. They were mnot the majority, but they were always there.

It isn’t disrespectful to call a person they name they prefer, but it is disrespectful to question the motives of why a priest would ask to be called Fr Bob instead of Fr Jones.

 

[DebChris]

I belong to a Franciscan parish, and the “brother”/“father” title is always an issue with everyone…except the friars…who see themselves, all as brothers, so if you don’t know them, to the OFM, “brother” is always appropriate…now, is it Brother Smith, or Brother Jimmy…well, I think thats where we started!

There is a parish in the city where my daughter lives served by Franciscans. The priests do not call themselves “Father,” and the proper way to address them is “Fryar.” Of course, I do use “Father” in the confessional.
It took me awhile to become used to being called Sister, although I am not a religious. “Brother” and “Sister” are simply how parish members here call each other. I see this form of address used between friends and coworkers outside the Church as well. My friends might just call me “Sis Deb”

I didn’t realize this was a Southern tradition, but I suppose that does make sense! I have taught my daughter to refer to adults that we are familiar with by Miss or Mr. followed by their first name. For examples, our neighbors are Miss Deb and Mr. Mark.

When I was younger, I taught swimming. Swim instructors were always called by their first name, which is no different than when I was a child learning to swim. I really liked being called “Ms. Deborah” while teaching swimming in Louisiana.
One of the daycares my daughter attended in California also had children using Miss “first name.” Sometimes last names can be difficult for young children. It is also the proper form of address for teachers at all grade levels here.
I address my doctor as Dr. “First Name” using the second name only because 2 of my doctors have the same first name.

My younger sisters are about the same age as my nieces and nephews. They even went to school together. They didn’t like being called “Aunt Mary” and “Aunt Emily” on the playground and asked that the title be dropped. Of course, I was a teenager at the time looking for respect any place I could find it.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I can’t really disagree with you with issue itself, but I will say this: Where I live, I’m seeing the Church go through VERY hard times. Cafeteria Catholics are extremely common, abortion, contraception, SSA, sexual promiscuity, and a myriad of other things run rampant. Right now is not a time for the Church to deal with petty issues that have no sin involved. We need to fight against Satan who is making direct attacks on all of our weak places. Where you live it might be a bunny’s haven, but not here. Oh, no.

Oh dear…I didn’t mean to have this become an ‘issue’ really!

I never considered it dis-respectful to address a priest by his first name, it is just one of those stupid little things that I noticed.

 

[dshix]

Oh dear…I didn’t mean to have this become an ‘issue’ really!

I never considered it dis-respectful to address a priest by his first name, it is just one of those stupid little things that I noticed.

Oh, don’t worry, I wasn’t aiming that statement at you, it was directed to Constantine, who thought the issue “very important.” Aside from that, everyone else on this thread has been very reasonable.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I can’t really disagree with you with issue itself, but I will say this:

Where I live, I’m seeing the Church go through VERY hard times. Cafeteria Catholics are extremely common, abortion, contraception, SSA, sexual promiscuity, and a myriad of other things run rampant. Right now is not a time for the Church to deal with petty issues that have no sin involved. We need to fight against Satan who is making direct attacks on all of our weak places.

Where you live it might be a bunny’s haven, but not here. Oh, no.

But isn’t the problems you have listed came about because of a lack of proper catechesis? Something that can be addressed by a good relationship with our priest. Also, our good relationship with our priest can make them better priests. There are many things I do today much better because I am a father to my children. I would have never changed if I didn’t have children. Perhaps this is why priests are so lax today about their own theology and catechesis, because they don’t feel any kinship with their flock and feel that they are just there as ministers of Sacraments, not really shepherds.

 

[dshix]

But isn’t the problems you have listed came about because of a lack of proper catechesis? Something that can be addressed by a good relationship with our priest. Also, our good relationship with our priest can make them better priests. There are many things I do today much better because I am a father to my children. I would have never changed if I didn’t have children. Perhaps this is why priests are so lax today about their own theology and catechesis, because they don’t feel any kinship with their flock and feel that they are just there as ministers of Sacraments, not really shepherds.

I agree, but “better relationship with our priests” first of all has nothing to do with names, and second of all doesn’t have anything to with Catechesis! The priests should be catechizing anyway.