When did 'Fr. Smith' become "Fr. Jimmy'

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But should it be Christian culture rather than whatever prevailing secular culture there is? As I said earlier, there is value in our given name. When we receive Sacraments that name is invoked, the grace of God is given to that name. That includes ordination, I doubt anyone is ordained by their last name.

I do not think that lastnames are used in the actual ordination but when the Candidate is called and he response present it is to his First and Last name. At least that is what I recall for ordinations.

I know it is such in Vows. Also my first and last name are used in the actual vows that I wrote out (many times, talk about a raging hand cramp) but I also said it out loud when I recited it at the ceremony.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Please ignore my post above this one, Post#60.

The thread seems to have moved past that point, if it really ever was at that point.

Just hit another pet-peeve of mine.

I apologize.

Please pray for me and know that I am praying for you.

 

[Joannm]

I think this happened about the same time that physicians started addressing their patients by their first names and high school teachers and college professors started addressing their student by their first names and neighbors started asking children to address them by their first names instead of as Mr. or Mrs. Lastname. Adults who wanted others, including children, to address them familiarly were “cool”. Somewhere along the line, using a last name to address others became a sign that you were not on friendly terms. Then it became some kind of a put-down to address others by their first names while expecting to be addressed by your last name, even for professional reasons. Now you can hardly find anyone who insists on being addressed by their last name outside of judges and bishops!

IOW, the priests changed with the times, whether for good or for ill.

I think this is right on. Also when I was younger a priest never addressed adult parishioners by their first name, it was always Mr. or Mrs. Last Name. WHen they started addressing parishioners by their first name I guess the parishioners followed their lead. A friend of mine worked with a newly ordained priest who told her that she was to call him Fr. Lastname. So she told him she preferred he call her Dr. Last Name (she had a doctorate in theology). He refused. What does that say? She had to respect his office by doing what he asked but it didn’t work the other way around.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I think this is right on. Also when I was younger a priest never addressed adult parishioners by their first name, it was always Mr. or Mrs. Last Name. WHen they started addressing parishioners by their first name I guess the parishioners followed their lead. A friend of mine worked with a newly ordained priest who told her that she was to call him Fr. Lastname. So she told him she preferred he call her Dr. Last Name (she had a doctorate in theology). He refused. What does that say? She had to respect his office by doing what he asked but it didn’t work the other way around.

Just a question. How many doctors outside of the medical profession request that their title of Dr. be used in everyday life?

Do you not think that maybe it was a bit more of this priest being a younger man asking her to address him in a more traditional manner might have had a bit to do with it?

Also how does Fr FirstName differ from Fr LastName in such a manner that your friend wished to proved a point, one that escapes me, from what he calls her now to Dr LastName?

 

[maltmom]

Just a question. How many doctors outside of the medical profession request that their title of Dr. be used in everyday life?

Do you not think that maybe it was a bit more of this priest being a younger man asking her to address him in a more traditional manner might have had a bit to do with it?

Also how does Fr FirstName differ from Fr LastName in such a manner that your friend wished to proved a point, one that escapes me, from what he calls her now to Dr LastName?

Actually I’ve run across quite a few over the past 15 years. I was always taught that the rules of etiquette dictate that only dentists, medical doctors and vets were to use their titles socially. I have a feeling your assessment of that situation is correct. He probably sensed some sort of “attitude” in the way she said she wanted to be called Dr. I would never expect my Priest to call me Dr LastName even though traditional norms suggest that I could be.

 

[RyanBlack]

Actually I’ve run across quite a few over the past 15 years. I was always taught that the rules of etiquette dictate that only dentists, medical doctors and vets were to use their titles socially. I have a feeling your assessment of that situation is correct. He probably sensed some sort of “attitude” in the way she said she wanted to be called Dr. I would never expect my Priest to call me Dr LastName even though traditional norms suggest that I could be.

It seems to me that there might be some sort of “attitude” on the part of the priest as well. What possible harm would come from referring her to by her title if that is what she prefers?

 

[Spera_in_Deo]

It seems to me that this new form of addressing a priest by this first name is/was just another step by those who wish to breakdown the barriers between ordained clergy and “the people.” We want father to be just one of “us.” After all, he is just the “presider” at Mass - just one of us!

Father **is not **just one of us. He is “alter Christus.” We need to respect his calling/vocation and not get into the habit of making him just another one of the boys!

Please show the proper respect due father, the church and our Saviour. He is Father Smith and. most certainly, not Father Jimmy!

 

[Joe_5859]

It seems to me that this new form of addressing a priest by this first name is/was just another step by those who wish to breakdown the barriers between ordained clergy and “the people.” We want father to be just one of “us.” After all, he is just the “presider” at Mass - just one of us!

Father **is not **just one of us. He is “alter Christus.” We need to respect his calling/vocation and not get into the habit of making him just another one of the boys!

Please show the proper respect due father, the church and our Saviour. He is Father Smith and. most certainly, not Father Jimmy!

I think you’re reading too much into it. Our culture as a whole has gotten more lax with formalities. It’s not a specifically clerical issue.

Besides, if blurring the line between clergy and laity were the goal, he’d be saying, “Just call me Jimmy”, not “Father Jimmy”.

 

[DebChris]

I think you’re reading too much into it. Our culture as a whole has gotten more lax with formalities. It’s not a specifically clerical issue.

Besides, if blurring the line between clergy and laity were the goal, he’d be saying, “Just call me Jimmy”, not “Father Jimmy”.

I appreciate those priests from my first college who wanted us to see their human side. A priest remains human with his own personal interests and hobbies.
This is separate from his role, his vocation as priest when he does act “en personna” of Christ.
Seeing a priest as human makes it easier to be more open when facing a problem.

Growing up, I often heard about the loneliness of a priest. Sometimes they need somebody they can talk to as well. Seeing the priest’s human side can also make us less critical when he does seem to fall short of his calling.

 

[clem456]

I appreciate those priests from my first college who wanted us to see their human side. A priest remains human with his own personal interests and hobbies.
This is separate from his role, his vocation as priest when he does act “en personna” of Christ.
Seeing a priest as human makes it easier to be more open when facing a problem.

Growing up, I often heard about the loneliness of a priest. Sometimes they need somebody they can talk to as well. Seeing the priest’s human side can also make us less critical when he does seem to fall short of his calling.

i agree with the thrust of what you are saying but not with the notion that there is a separation or compartmentalization. The priest is a whole person just like everyone else. His hobbies can’t be incongruous with his vocation.

That being said, jogging fishing weightlifting stamp collecting can all be part of a holy life.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It seems to me that this new form of addressing a priest by this first name is/was just another step by those who wish to breakdown the barriers between ordained clergy and “the people.” We want father to be just one of “us.” After all, he is just the “presider” at Mass - just one of us!

Father **is not **just one of us. He is “alter Christus.” We need to respect his calling/vocation and not get into the habit of making him just another one of the boys!

Please show the proper respect due father, the church and our Saviour. He is Father Smith and. most certainly, not Father Jimmy!

Addressing priests by last names is a modern invention. Unless you want to claim that there was the modern notion of last names in the First Millennium. Ever wonder why saints are not called by their last name? And why do the West started calling Mary as “Mary” rather than the more formal, more honorific title of Theotokos given by the 3rd Ecumenical Council?

And Father is one of us. Why do you think we call him Father in the first place?

 

[anilorak13ska]

We go to a Franciscan parish, and the priests there all prefer to be called Fr. FirstName. Maybe if I didn’t know them, I’d go by their last name, but hubby and I are involved with various activities at the parish, so we’ve spent time with the priests, and we don’t feel that they are our “boss”. I think too that the Franciscan focus on equality also encourages people to treat priests as fellow human beings, with the task of leading the flock, but not somehow above reproach. Some of the folks we hang out with at the church even skip the “Father”, especially when addressing the priests in small group gatherings. I don’t feel comfortable with that… but I met a seminarian at a retreat once, and he’s since been ordained, and I feel fine referring to him by his first name, bc that’s the context under which I met him.

 

[powerlinemom]

Our priest has a hard to pronounce last name, so most people refer to him as “Monsignor FirstName”. But whenever I’ve heard him introduce himself or the few times I’ve spoken to him on the phone, he always identifies himself as “Father LastName”, so I either call him just “Monsignor” or if I were to address him by name I’d use his last name since that is how he introduces himself.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I think this happened about the same time that physicians started addressing their patients by their first names and high school teachers and college professors started addressing their student by their first names and neighbors started asking children to address them by their first names instead of as Mr. or Mrs. Lastname. Adults who wanted others, including children, to address them familiarly were “cool”. Somewhere along the line, using a last name to address others became a sign that you were not on friendly terms. Then it became some kind of a put-down to address others by their first names while expecting to be addressed by your last name, even for professional reasons. Now you can hardly find anyone who insists on being addressed by their last name outside of judges and bishops!

IOW, the priests changed with the times, whether for good or for ill.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this. I believe it is society that changed and the priests just changed a long with it. Today, many of my friends have their children call me and other adults by their first name. Only instead of just saying Diana they put a Miss in front of it or if it is my husband they put a Mr. in front of his first name. Thing that kind of bothered me is I am not a Miss, I am a Mrs. but I think a lot of society maybe doesn’t even know what the difference between those two words are anymore.

It is kind of a way of not showing respect for authority or “your elders” any longer. But now I have heard it so much it almost sounds strange and formal and distant if someone does call me Mrs. (last name).

On the other hand we have a priest in our area with a very difficult last name to pronounce so everyone uses his first name but I think if people heard it enough and tried they could pronounce it.

 

[anilorak13ska]

Today, many of my friends have their children call me and other adults by their first name. Only instead of just saying Diana they put a Miss in front of it or if it is my husband they put a Mr. in front of his first name. Thing that kind of bothered me is I am not a Miss, I am a Mrs. but I think a lot of society maybe doesn’t even know what the difference between those two words are anymore.

I just wanted to point out that they are probably calling you “Ms.” which is very hard to differentiate from “Miss” in spoken language. “Ms.” is the standard go-to title of respect used as an equivalent to “Mr.” when a woman’s marital status is unknown (or irrelevant to the situation at hand). I’m a married woman, yet I prefer the term “Ms.” As I’ve gotten older, I don’t mind “Mrs.” like I used to, but I still prefer “Ms.”

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I just wanted to point out that they are probably calling you “Ms.” which is very hard to differentiate from “Miss” in spoken language. “Ms.” is the standard go-to title of respect used as an equivalent to “Mr.” when a woman’s marital status is unknown (or irrelevant to the situation at hand). I’m a married woman, yet I prefer the term “Ms.” As I’ve gotten older, I don’t mind “Mrs.” like I used to, but I still prefer “Ms.”

Yeah, I have heard the “Ms” before and I am know that is not what they are saying and pretty sure they wouldn’t. It is Miss. Miss Diana, even though they know I am married but like I said, I have gotten used to it.

Fortunately, there are others who teach their children to use Mr. and Mrs.

 

[april32010]

youtube.com/watch?v=qoYsfbq3vMc

 

[AnthonyJ]

Eastern Christians (Catholic and Orthodox) call priests by their Christian names, ie Father Michael.

 

[JReducation]

When I was a kid in the 70’s we still referred to all priest by their last names…

When did that change? Do you still call priests by their last name?

I just kind of noticed this for some reason…

There are a number of reasons here. The answer is not as simple as people think. CAF is going to put more grey on my head than I already have, because CAFers tend to either find answers that are too simple or to complex. What gives with that?

1. If you are a member of a religious order, you would not have used your last name until after Vatican II. Therefore, those who are older would use their first names only.
2. If you belong to one of the new religious communities that are returning to tradition, you no longer use last names. You actually change your name. I was born Michael. My religious name is Jason Richard. No one knows me by Michael. We never use our last names except on civil documents.
3. If you belonged to certain cultures, even if you’re a secular priest, you would use the first name, because that is the custom on certain countries: France, Italy, and Spain come to mind. Therefore, you will often read or hear references made to Don Giovanni for St. John Bosco, Monsieur Vicent, for St. Vincent de Paul and Monsieur Jean Marie Batiste for St. John Vianney, Brother Juan de la Cruz (John of the Cross), Brother Francesco (St. Francis), Brother Bonaventure (St. Bonaventure). If you observe, only the modern saints have last names. That’s because they were known by their first name.

Who ever heard of St. Teresa de Ahumada or St. Therese Martin? The reason that we refer to St. John Vianney by his last name is because the number of Johns in the canon of saints is in the hundreds. Just like every Francis after St. Francis of Assisi is known by two names. But no one knows St. Giovanni Bernadone (Francis of Assisi’s legal name).

As the world becomes smaller, traditions from different cultures blend. In Florida, we have a very large Hispanic and Haitian Catholic population. Neither group has ever used surnames for priests. Most priests here are known by their first name

I think it’s funny that in Boston it’s Cardinal Sean.

Sean is a Capuchin Franciscan. We did not have last names when he entered the order. The custom was to assign you a name that went with your first name. His actual name is Patrick O’Malley. He became Friar Sean Patrick. Today, he is Cardinal Sean. He was my superior for a number of years. A very holy man.

Archbishop Chaput also comes from the same province as Cardinal Sean and I came from. However, the Archbishop entered later. By the time he entered, the custom had changed. He remained Charles Joseph Chaput, hence Archbishop Chaput.

Today, the Capuchin reform and those communities that are coming out of the Capuchin reform such as my own and that of the CFR are back to religious names and no last names. Fr. Benedict Groeschel is still using his last name, because he is a psychologist. In the academic world he is known as Dr. Groeschel. In my case, no one has any need to know my family name. I’m not famous. LOL.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Phemie]

I’ve been pondering this for a few days.

When I was a child there were two priests who were very close to my family. One was our Pastor, a grandfatherly type who’d been Pastor in my village for over 30 years. He was Dad’s best friend and Dad never called him anything but Fr. Surname. Same with the Redemptorist who visited each year.

The only priests I knew who were called Fr. First Name were the two who had grown up in our village, one was Dad’s cousin so of course he was Fr. Henri, and the other was a much younger man who became Fr. Armand.

But the times were very different. Our parents’ close friends were all Mr. & Mrs. First Name. Those who had a closer relationship to the family than that were Uncle and Aunt First Name.

As you know, in French, politeness dictates that you address strangers or adult in the second person plural, always ‘vous’ and not ‘tu’. Some of my friends were brought up to address their parents in the second person plural, something Dad pointed out to us at a young age to show us how liberal he was allowing to address him as ‘tu’. I smile because he was soooo not liberal.

Then I grew up. I got married and never wanted to be addressed as Mrs anything. I wanted no title. Mrs X was my mother-in-law, not I. When my kids were born, I tried to have them call my friends Mr. or Mrs. Surname but nobody wanted that and even my 3 year olds were told by my friends to call them ‘Marie’ or ‘Fred’.

Now, as far as I’m concerned, politeness dictates that you call people by the name they want to be called. You don’t use a nickname with someone who doesn’t want one (my pet peeve, I want to be called by my full given name, not the shortened version, or worse, the cutesy version that I’ve avoided for the last 59 years). I’ve called three priests by their first names, no title. I worked with them and that’s how they wished to be addressed. The others I worked with, all members of a religious congregation, were called Fr. First Name. Even the Bishop, also a member of that congregation, would call the office and identify himself, “Phemie, it’s Doug.” To me he was always Bishop Doug.

Now we have a new Bishop. He’s Bishop Last Name until he indicates he wants something different. We also have a new Pastor, a diocesan priest. He identifies himself as Fr. Surname and I don’t call him anything else. My friend, whose home the Pastor has adopted as his own and where he frequently drops in unannounced, calls him Fr. First Name.