When did 'Fr. Smith' become "Fr. Jimmy'

[Mrs_Sally]

Phemie, you hit the nail on the head.

politeness dictates that you call people by the name they want to be called

And that goes both ways. If someone wants to be called Fr/Mr/Mrs Lastname, that’s what you call them. If someone wants to be called by their cutsey nickname because their given name is something unsupportable, that’s what you call them. I have a coworker, a very southern man, who introduces himself as Richie. If he wants to be called that at 45 (or thereabouts), that’s his business.

 

[Phemie]

Phemie, you hit the nail on the head.

And that goes both ways. If someone wants to be called Fr/Mr/Mrs Lastname, that’s what you call them. If someone wants to be called by their cutsey nickname because their given name is something unsupportable, that’s what you call them. I have a coworker, a very southern man, who introduces himself as Richie. If he wants to be called that at 45 (or thereabouts), that’s his business.

DH is 63. In this town he’s Mike but the minute we return to our hometown he’s called Mikey by everyone because that’s the name by which they knew him wayyyyy back when.

 

[maltmom]

There are a number of reasons here. The answer is not as simple as people think. CAF is going to put more grey on my head than I already have, because CAFers tend to either find answers that are too simple or to complex. What gives with that?

I’m surprised you have any hair left to turn grey.

My bad.

 

[Jane_of_Arc]

I was baptized as a Roman Catholic in the USA, and not familiar with Eastern Catholic customs. I was also raised post Vatican II and most of the priests I encountered had no problems with being called Father “Name” or one who was a Monsignor as “Monsignor” LastName. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me can enlighten us all.

The habit of the laity addressing the parish priests by their first name…Father Tom, Father Dick, Father Harry…became prominent after Vatican II I think it was part of the agenda to blend the ordained priesthood & the laity. I was in my late 20’s when the custom changed. Before the council, the clergy was ALWAYS addressed by their last name, Father Smith, Father Jones, etc. AND I was addressed as Mrs. Last Name by priests. I am a white-haired Grandmother & I truly HATE it when some 25 yr. old priest calls me Jane.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

The habit of the laity addressing the parish priests by their first name…Father Tom, Father Dick, Father Harry…became prominent after Vatican II I think it was part of the agenda to blend the ordained priesthood & the laity. I was in my late 20’s when the custom changed. Before the council, the clergy was ALWAYS addressed by their last name, Father Smith, Father Jones, etc. AND I was addressed as Mrs. Last Name by priests. I am a white-haired Grandmother & I truly HATE it when some 25 yr. old priest calls me Jane.

Mrs. Jnae, please read the posts by Br. JR. Prior to Vatican II there were plenty of priests known as Fr FirstName.

If you would prefer people call you Mrs. LastName (or Granny Jane ), then why don’t you ask them to? Remember though that your priest, whatever his age, is your Father in the faith.

 

[maryjk]

The habit of the laity addressing the parish priests by their first name…Father Tom, Father Dick, Father Harry…became prominent after Vatican II I think it was part of the agenda to blend the ordained priesthood & the laity. I was in my late 20’s when the custom changed. Before the council, the clergy was ALWAYS addressed by their last name, Father Smith, Father Jones, etc. AND I was addressed as Mrs. Last Name by priests. I am a white-haired Grandmother & I truly HATE it when some 25 yr. old priest calls me Jane.

Always? No. Maybe where you were living, but not everywhere. And not always.

Heck, even the Christmas song, Christmas in Killarney, written in the 50’s says, “and Father John, before he’s gone, will bless the house and all.”

It had nothing to do with Vatican II, it was popular in some places long before that.

 

[Rich_C]

The habit of the laity addressing the parish priests by their first name…Father Tom, Father Dick, Father Harry…became prominent after Vatican II I think it was part of the agenda to blend the ordained priesthood & the laity. I was in my late 20’s when the custom changed. Before the council, the clergy was ALWAYS addressed by their last name, Father Smith, Father Jones, etc. AND I was addressed as Mrs. Last Name by priests. I am a white-haired Grandmother & I truly HATE it when some 25 yr. old priest calls me Jane.

Mrs. of Arc, its true that courtesy has generally declined, and apart from that, standards have changed. I share your wish that more people would use titles and last names until invited to use first names, but even though I don’t doubt your experience at all, apparently there were exceptions to the Fr. Last Name custom even before the council. Your feelings are totally valid, however.

 

[babochka]

I’m not famous. LOL.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Brother JR, thank you for your very thorough response.

For those of us who frequent Catholic Answers, you are quite famous (as evidenced by the very long and still ongoing thread wishing you a Happy Birthday). If I were to meet you in person, I would definitely feel as if you were a celebrity.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I did a mini-research of sorts. At least in the 1800s priests in the Philippines were referred to by surname. But going back to the Great Schism, the Cardinal legate of the Pope that went to Constantinople is Cardinal Humbert (or Humbertus), that is his first name. So at the time of the Great Schism even Cardinals were called by first name, not last name. So this was certainly some development in the West, I guess as last names evolved into use with formalities.

 

[JReducation]

Is it Lent yet? Oh yeah, it’s Advent. That would explain why so many people on this thread are doing such severe penance over names. :yup:

The rules are very simple.

1. If you’re speaking to Cistercians, Franciscans, Benedictines, or Camaldolese, they are usually Brother. It makes no difference whether the man is a priest or not. The priesthood is not essential to the religious life. We enter our respective orders to live the life of a monk or a friar, not to be priests. We can do that and remain in the secular world as FSSP, Maryknoll, Vincentian, ICRSS or diocesan. The first mistake that you’re all making is that every priest is a shepherd and that you’re all part of his flock. This is not true. A friar priest or a monk priest is no more a shepherd than a computer geek is a brain surgeon. He is ordained for the benefit of his order and of his soul, not for the benefit of the lay faithful. Whatever he does for the lay faithful is because it’s part of the charism of his order. Some things he’ll do and some he won’t. That simple.
2. Other priests who are religious are usually called by their first name. The reason is simple. In religious life, the idea of a biological family is not part of the picture. Once you make the vow of chastity you cease to be a member of your biological family, you will never have any other family other than your brothers in the order. You have no last name, except for civil purposes. This business of calling religious by last name is an American bad habit. I cringe every time someone calls me Brother Last Name. I no longer belong to that family anymore than I am Chinese, not to mention that this is a new American idiosyncrasy. The last name thing is a result of “lay clericalism”. Yes there is such a thing. The laity insists on being more clerical than the clergy. It has been the laity that started using the last name with religious, because secular priests go by last name. I’ve already explained the different traditions that secular priests follow. In a country like the USA, where priests come from many cultures, you’re going to have diversity in this matter.
3. But for the love of God, DO NOT TREAT RELIGIOUS AS IF WE WERE SECULAR CLERGY.

The Catholics of the 1950s did that and almost destroyed religious life. Most laymen at the time were educated either by sisters or by diocesan priests. Neither sisters nor diocesan priests really understand how male religious life works. They educated the laity to think “clerical”. Obviously, there are more laymen than sisters and diocesan priests. Therefore, the laity has more influence in these matters.

Before we knew it, every religious was being treated as if he were diocesan and being held to the same expectations. Unfortunately, the religious tried so hard to accommodate the faithful that by the 1960s we had houses filled with hundreds of religious who were not religious. They wore a habit, had made vows, but that was the extent of their religious identity. They were diocesans in habits. They demanded to be treated as such and to have the same lifestyle as diocesan priests. When Vatican II said, “Go back to your origins,” these men left in the thousands. Religious communities were almost decimated. So please don’t treat us as if were diocesan clergy or secular clergy. It does damage, not good. It may make you feel good to call us by our last name, it annoys the heck out of us. We’re not all part of that tradition.

Keep it simple. We’re Father Jack, Brother Joe, Friar Nick and that’s it. As far as the diocesan clergy is concerned, respect their culture. They don’t all come from the same culture. Their preference is going to be according to their culture.

There is no need to think about this too much or for anyone to feel uncomfortable calling a priest by his first name. What did you call the sisters in school or the brothers who taught you? Didn’t you call them by their first names? Why? Are they less worthy of respect than the priest?

No. You called them by their first name, because it’s the appropriate way to address them. The same applies for some diocesan priests in different cultures. Remember, you may be of German ancestry, but your priest may be of Italian ancestry or Hispanic, where no one calls a priest by his last name unless he’s a bishop. Even then, if the bishop is a brother, he can go by his first name, such as Cardinal Sean. Just follow their lead.

If you really want to think about something and do penance, we need $12,000.00 to operate our program for expectant fathers beginning in January. There is something for all of you to pray over and do penance for. Ask Our Lady to help us to serve the voiceless child in the womb.

Fraternally,

Br. Smitty

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is it Lent yet? Oh yeah, it’s Advent. That would explain why so many people on this thread are doing such severe penance over names. :yup:

The rules are very simple.

1. If you’re speaking to Cistercians, Franciscans, Benedictines, or Camaldolese, they are usually Brother. It makes no difference whether the man is a priest or not. The priesthood is not essential to the religious life. We enter our respective orders to live the life of a monk or a friar, not to be priests. We can do that and remain in the secular world as FSSP, Maryknoll, Vincentian, ICRSS or diocesan. The first mistake that you’re all making is that every priest is a shepherd and that you’re all part of his flock. This is not true. A friar priest or a monk priest is no more a shepherd than a computer geek is a brain surgeon. He is ordained for the benefit of his order and of his soul, not for the benefit of the lay faithful. Whatever he does for the lay faithful is because it’s part of the charism of his order. Some things he’ll do and some he won’t. That simple.
2. Other priests who are religious are usually called by their first name. The reason is simple. In religious life, the idea of a biological family is not part of the picture. Once you make the vow of chastity you cease to be a member of your biological family, you will never have any other family other than your brothers in the order. You have no last name, except for civil purposes. This business of calling religious by last name is an American bad habit. I cringe every time someone calls me Brother Last Name. I no longer belong to that family anymore than I am Chinese, not to mention that this is a new American idiosyncrasy. The last name thing is a result of “lay clericalism”. Yes there is such a thing. The laity insists on being more clerical than the clergy. It has been the laity that started using the last name with religious, because secular priests go by last name. I’ve already explained the different traditions that secular priests follow. In a country like the USA, where priests come from many cultures, you’re going to have diversity in this matter.
3. But for the love of God, DO NOT TREAT RELIGIOUS AS IF WE WERE SECULAR CLERGY.

The Catholics of the 1950s did that and almost destroyed religious life. Most laymen at the time were educated either by sisters or by diocesan priests. Neither sisters nor diocesan priests really understand how male religious life works. They educated the laity to think “clerical”. Obviously, there are more laymen than sisters and diocesan priests. Therefore, the laity has more influence in these matters.

Before we knew it, every religious was being treated as if he were diocesan and being held to the same expectations. Unfortunately, the religious tried so hard to accommodate the faithful that by the 1960s we had houses filled with hundreds of religious who were not religious. They wore a habit, had made vows, but that was the extent of their religious identity. They were diocesans in habits. They demanded to be treated as such and to have the same lifestyle as diocesan priests. When Vatican II said, “Go back to your origins,” these men left in the thousands. Religious communities were almost decimated. So please don’t treat us as if were diocesan clergy or secular clergy. It does damage, not good. It may make you feel good to call us by our last name, it annoys the heck out of us. We’re not all part of that tradition.

Keep it simple. We’re Father Jack, Brother Joe, Friar Nick and that’s it. As far as the diocesan clergy is concerned, respect their culture. They don’t all come from the same culture. Their preference is going to be according to their culture.

There is no need to think about this too much or for anyone to feel uncomfortable calling a priest by his first name. What did you call the sisters in school or the brothers who taught you? Didn’t you call them by their first names? Why? Are they less worthy of respect than the priest?

No. You called them by their first name, because it’s the appropriate way to address them. The same applies for some diocesan priests in different cultures. Remember, you may be of German ancestry, but your priest may be of Italian ancestry or Hispanic, where no one calls a priest by his last name unless he’s a bishop. Even then, if the bishop is a brother, he can go by his first name, such as Cardinal Sean. Just follow their lead.

If you really want to think about something and do penance, we need $12,000.00 to operate our program for expectant fathers beginning in January. There is something for all of you to pray over and do penance for. Ask Our Lady to help us to serve the voiceless child in the womb.

Fraternally,

Br. Smitty

The last two RC priets I had were Father FirstName. Although the RC bishop in my area is Archbishop LastName. My UGCC bishop is always Bishop FirstName. I’ve never heard anyone call him by his last name, and he never signs anything addressed to the congregation just by his last name. If his last name is there, then it means his full name is there. Or he just signs by his first name.

I’m still curious at what point in history does the last name became a normative way to call priests, at least among the Latins.

 

[JReducation]

The last two RC priets I had were Father FirstName. Although the RC bishop in my area is Archbishop LastName. My UGCC bishop is always Bishop FirstName. I’ve never heard anyone call him by his last name, and he never signs anything addressed to the congregation just by his last name. If his last name is there, then it means his full name is there. Or he just signs by his first name.

I’m still curious at what point in history does the last name became a normative way to call priests, at least among the Latins.

It’s not normative in the Latin Church. It’s an American reaction to the silliness of the “spirit of Vatican II”. We need to learn to respond, not to react.

As one poster said, in her Franciscan parish every friar is Brother, ordained or not. Yet, observe how she can’t bring herself to saying, “Bless me Brother for I have sinned” in the confessional. From the standpoint of the Franciscan, you’re being rude, because you’re not acknowledging him as a religious. Whereas, if you call him Brother, it does not take away the Sacrament of Holy Orders, if he’s ordained. Because many brothers are priests, bishops and some have been popes. St. Celestine comes to mind.

To respond would be to go with the culture of the priest. The priest will go with the culture of his religious community, if he’s a religious or with the culture where he grew up, if he’s diocesan.

It was not even normative to call priests Father, unless they were religious superiors. If they were diocesan they were always Mister, in whatever language you spoke. I believe it was the British who referred to priests as Vicar. Later, because the Anglican clergy outnumbered the Catholic clergy, the term was dropped by Catholics. Prior to the growth of the Anglican church, secular priests were Vicar + Last Name. In other countries they were Mr + First name or Last Name. It depended on the culture.

Americans have too many hangups about titles. Then we think the Europeans are obsessive with aristocratic titles.

I’ll give you a great example of the American’s obsession with titles. When it was decided that we would not have a king, but a president that left the president’s wife without a title. She could not be called Your Highness, Your Majesty or Lady Mary etc. We came up with the title, The First Lady. If one thinks about it, it’s a silly title, because her husband is the president, not the First Gentleman. She’s the First Lady of the House? Who knows? Now we say, “Well, she’s the first lady of the nation?” Huh? Does the nation need a leading lady?

We’re wonderful people, hard working, honest as the day is long, patriotic, generous to a fault, be we’re neurotic in this country. What can I tell you?

Br. JR, FFV

 

[DebChris]

JR effectively shows how using a person’s first name need not be disrespectful.
As mentioned earlier, people where I currently work are addressed by first name. My bank card does not even have my last name. Within the last three days, I have been seen by 3 different doctors. Each has the same first name. It has been fun trying to communicate with each of them about the others. That means using Dr. first name second name. This gets to be even more fun while under orders from each of them to rest my voice.

If I use “Father, forgive me for I have sinned,” when receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation, it may be as much formula as anything else. It is the prodigal child returning to the father after sinning “against God and man.” I do still need to figure out how to make my confession without a voice. Face to face is not available. Thankfully it is Advent which means communal penance services will be scheduled, and there will be the opportunity for face to face confession. I missed the first communal penance service while in hospital.

Having shared names is not limited to first names. Even when the name is not as common as Smith and Jones, there may be more than one Fr. Last Name. I have known brothers from the same family who are ordained priests. Using Fr. First Name was the only way to keep them straight.

 

[Phemie]

Today, many of my friends have their children call me and other adults by their first name. Only instead of just saying Diana they put a Miss in front of it or if it is my husband they put a Mr. in front of his first name. Thing that kind of bothered me is I am not a Miss, I am a Mrs. but I think a lot of society maybe doesn’t even know what the difference between those two words are anymore.

In schools around here all the teachers are addressed as Miss or Sir (no given name, no surname). If the kids are referring to their teachers it’s “Miss said” or “Sir said”.

My daughter got laughed at when we moved to a new city and on her second day in school she asked her English teacher a question: “Sir, what was …” The kids thought that was the funniest thing they’d ever heard.
“What did you call him???”
“Sir.”
“Why would you call him that??”
“Er, what do you call him?”
“By his name, Mr. Cormier.”

 

[DebChris]

In schools around here all the teachers are addressed as Miss or Sir (no given name, no surname). If the kids are referring to their teachers it’s “Miss said” or “Sir said”.

My daughter got laughed at when we moved to a new city and on her second day in school she asked her English teacher a question: “Sir, what was …” The kids thought that was the funniest thing they’d ever heard.
“What did you call him???”
“Sir.”
“Why would you call him that??”
“Er, what do you call him?”
“By his name, Mr. Cormier.”

The kids here also say, “The Miss said,” or “The Mister said” to mean “The teacher said.”
They do address us as Mr. or Miss First Name.

 

[JReducation]

JR effectively shows how using a person’s first name need not be disrespectful.
As mentioned earlier, people where I currently work are addressed by first name. My bank card does not even have my last name. Within the last three days, I have been seen by 3 different doctors. Each has the same first name. It has been fun trying to communicate with each of them about the others. That means using Dr. first name second name. This gets to be even more fun while under orders from each of them to rest my voice.

If I use “Father, forgive me for I have sinned,” when receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation, it may be as much formula as anything else. It is the prodigal child returning to the father after sinning “against God and man.” I do still need to figure out how to make my confession without a voice. Face to face is not available. Thankfully it is Advent which means communal penance services will be scheduled, and there will be the opportunity for face to face confession. I missed the first communal penance service while in hospital.

Having shared names is not limited to first names. Even when the name is not as common as Smith and Jones, there may be more than one Fr. Last Name. I have known brothers from the same family who are ordained priests. Using Fr. First Name was the only way to keep them straight.

I’m so sorry to hear that you were in the hospital. I hope everything is well.

The formula for confession "Bless me Father . . . " the Father in the formula does not refer to God. It refers to the priest. For example, when I go to confession to a Franciscan, I say "Bless me Brother . . . " or "Bless me Friar . . . " It depends on the house. The superior calls the shots on that one. However, most friars are so used to "Bless me Father . . . " that they probably don’t even notice, especially on a Saturday when the line has 25 people. I wouldn’t sweat it, unless one is deliberately avoiding saying Brother or Friar. In that case, one is being disrespectful. But if it’s just a matter of habit . . . not a big deal.

In schools around here all the teachers are addressed as Miss or Sir (no given name, no surname). If the kids are referring to their teachers it’s “Miss said” or “Sir said”.

My daughter got laughed at when we moved to a new city and on her second day in school she asked her English teacher a question: “Sir, what was …” The kids thought that was the funniest thing they’d ever heard.
“What did you call him???”
“Sir.”
“Why would you call him that??”
“Er, what do you call him?”
“By his name, Mr. Cormier.”

When I was a missionary in the Caribbean the kids called their teachers Missy. I couldn’t understand why. I later found out that the island had once been owned by England. Teachers were either Mrs or Miss. The islanders referred to them as Missy.

They continuously called us Father. We kept saying, “Brother”. Again, the first missionaries were Dominican Friars. Among the Dominicans there is a distinction between the ordained friar and the cooperator brother. They’re to distinct vocations with different rights and duties, which is not the case among Franciscans. There is only one Franciscan vocation. Therefore, everyone is Brother or Friar. It took a long time for the people to get away from Father. We would just laugh and gently say “It’s Brother”. We would point to the superior and say silly things like, “That guy over there, you better call ‘Father’. He’s the boss and he bites if you call him Brother.” The funny part was that our superior was not a priest. But he was Father. The legal title of the superior is Father Guardian. We call him Father, Father Guardian, Father Jim or simply Jim, if he’s OK with it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Phemie]

They continuously called us Father. We kept saying, “Brother”. Again, the first missionaries were Dominican Friars. Among the Dominicans there is a distinction between the ordained friar and the cooperator brother. They’re to distinct vocations with different rights and duties, which is not the case among Franciscans. There is only one Franciscan vocation. Therefore, everyone is Brother or Friar. It took a long time for the people to get away from Father. We would just laugh and gently say “It’s Brother”. We would point to the superior and say silly things like, “That guy over there, you better call ‘Father’. He’s the boss and he bites if you call him Brother.” The funny part was that our superior was not a priest. But he was Father. The legal title of the superior is Father Guardian. We call him Father, Father Guardian, Father Jim or simply Jim, if he’s OK with it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

When I started school two of the teachers were religious sisters. Neither was the Superior of her community but they were both referred to as Mother. Mother Marie des Lys was the grade 1 teacher and Mother Sophie was the Principal/grade 9 teacher. One of the kids in my class, a non-Catholic who was not used to using the title ‘Mother’, called Sister “Mommy” a few times.

Today I wonder if they were ‘Mother’ because they were teachers? Those of the same congregation who were nurses were referred to as ‘Sister’ and it couldn’t have been because of the British title for nurses because they were a French congregation and used the two different titles in French too.

 

[JReducation]

When I started school two of the teachers were religious sisters. Neither was the Superior of her community but they were both referred to as Mother. Mother Marie des Lys was the grade 1 teacher and Mother Sophie was the Principal/grade 9 teacher. One of the kids in my class, a non-Catholic who was not used to using the title ‘Mother’, called Sister “Mommy” a few times.

Today I wonder if they were ‘Mother’ because they were teachers? Those of the same congregation who were nurses were referred to as ‘Sister’ and it couldn’t have been because of the British title for nurses because they were a French congregation and used the two different titles in French too.

I love the Mommy story. There were certain congregations of French women religious that were not canonically sisters. They were nuns that were semi-cloistered, such as the Religious of the Sacred Heart. In France they were called Madame. In other languages, Madam is usually applied to married women. Therefore, they used Mother. Today all Latin Catholic women religious and women in societies of apostolic life use Sister or Ms. depending on the country. In the East, women religious are Mother.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[DebChris]

I’m so sorry to hear that you were in the hospital. I hope everything is well.

The formula for confession "Bless me Father . . . " the Father in the formula does not refer to God. It refers to the priest. For example, when I go to confession to a Franciscan, I say "Bless me Brother . . . " or "Bless me Friar . . . " It depends on the house. The superior calls the shots on that one. However, most friars are so used to "Bless me Father . . . " that they probably don’t even notice, especially on a Saturday when the line has 25 people. I wouldn’t sweat it, unless one is deliberately avoiding saying Brother or Friar. In that case, one is being disrespectful. But if it’s just a matter of habit . . . not a big deal.

Br. JR, FFV

Yes, I do address the priest as Father. I know the priest has the God given authority to forgive sins. “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
I have always called priests “Father.” The first time I encountered the priest being addressed as Friar was in the city where my daughter lives. The abbreviation, Fr., remained the same. No, I am not deliberately avoiding saying Brother or Friar.
Being in the Middle East means that most of the priests here are Franciscan. I think the pastor is Carmelite, as are the nuns. They do go by Father. I am one of the few Westerners in the parish. Most parishioners are from India or the Philipines.
Most parishioners address each other as “Brother” or “Sister.”

I was only in the hospital for one day, the day that I had an endoscopy done to investigate the cause of my laryngitis. Resting my voice means I didn’t teach the last 2 weeks, and I’ve taken myself off the lectors’ roster until further notice. I’m on winter break for the next 3 weeks, which means I should be fine when school resumes in January.
The longest I’ve gone without a voice is two months, with 6 weeks of that being total. I didn’t answer my husband when he asked me to marry him. Of course, as a friend pointed out, it’s what I said during the marriage ceremony that really counts.

 

[DebChris]

I love the Mommy story. There were certain congregations of French women religious that were not canonically sisters. They were nuns that were semi-cloistered, such as the Religious of the Sacred Heart. In France they were called Madame. In other languages, Madam is usually applied to married women. Therefore, they used Mother. Today all Latin Catholic women religious and women in societies of apostolic life use Sister or Ms. depending on the country. In the East, women religious are Mother.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

I lived in Japan as a child. My younger sisters attended a private school run by a group of Spanish nuns. Occasionally, they would come home from school to report that “Sister so-and-so” would not be teaching for a couple of weeks. She was about to become a Mother.