2
2ndGen
Guest
Who was Elisabeth’s “master”?
Up until that point,
when discussing spiritual matters,
only The Triune God was referred to as “Lord”.
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Up until that point,
when discussing spiritual matters,
only The Triune God was referred to as “Lord”.
2
2ndGen
Guest
I love that one.
How could she be “full” of grace AND a sinner simultaneously? Does God grace sinners completely “before” Jesus’ sacrifice that came to wipe away our original sin?
(Then they say “Stephen was full of grace too!” and I slam the door on that exchange with, “But that was AFTER Jesus when everybody else could be as sinnless as Mary facilitating the negative factor that would allow for one to be free of sin and full of grace.” Then, I hear crickets chirping.)
I feel another thread being born here!
M
Memaw
Guest
Mary, being a young Jewish girl well versed in the Old Testament, knew about the coming of the Messiah. (read the OT). Having been created by God to be the Mother of HIS SON, she was filled with the FULLNESS of GRACE from conception, ( Hail, Full of Grace)) Grace brings WISDOM, (a gift from God), To be Full of Grace does not mean she knew as much as God does, ( Eve found that out in the Garden and she was full of Grace too) but it does mean she knew what God wanted her to know, (infused knowledge,) Even if we just take what we think she knew, her teaching from childhood, what the Angel said to her, what Elizabeth said (after being Filled with the Holy Spirit), (Read your BIble), At the Birth of Jesus, when shepherds and Kings came to worship HIM, the flight into Egypt, yes, even at the finding of Jesus in the Temple, when He said, " Do you not know I must be about MY Father’s Business". but never the less, He was subject to them and returned home with them. At the wedding feast at Cana, ( where Jesus worked HIS first Miracle at her request) "We would all do well to listen to her when she says, “Do as HE tells you.” Who are we to question the Wisdom of God in such a precious time in our human history. We should be down on our knees thanking God. And doing everything we can to bring about the Unity of Faith, that Jesus prayed for. God Bless.
L
LilyM
Guest
Daniel, in what sense would any lesser prophet be Elizabeth’s ‘Lord’, though? None of the other prophets are ever recorded as being addressed as ‘Lord’, are they?
C
Canto
Guest
Judging by her canticle (the Magnificat - my soul magnifes the Lord…etc) I would say Mary had a good grasp of scripture.
Essentially the angel came down (Luke Ch1) and told Mary that she would give birth to the Son of God i.e. the Messiah/Christ.
Being a virgin, Mary was a tad perplexed as she assumed she would have to have sex with Joseph and break her vow and wondered why. The angel explained that she wouldn’t have to have sex - Holy Spirit overshadowing her.
So Mary said OK. Be it done to me according to your word. And Mary belived that she would give birth to the Messiah
Luke 1:45 "And blessed, are you who believed, that the things spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Essentially the angel came down (Luke Ch1) and told Mary that she would give birth to the Son of God i.e. the Messiah/Christ.
Being a virgin, Mary was a tad perplexed as she assumed she would have to have sex with Joseph and break her vow and wondered why. The angel explained that she wouldn’t have to have sex - Holy Spirit overshadowing her.
So Mary said OK. Be it done to me according to your word. And Mary belived that she would give birth to the Messiah
Luke 1:45 "And blessed, are you who believed, that the things spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
R
ralphinal
Guest
To me there are two separate issues: knowing and understanding what it all meant.
When did she know? Day one. She knew who he was and who is Daddy was the whole time.
When did she fully comprehend it all? I think that this was an ongoing process. She had an advantage over the Apostles, so she was always farther along the story, but I do think that it took until either the Resurection or Pentecost for it to all click. I am pretty sure she did not know he would suffer and die as he did.
When did she know? Day one. She knew who he was and who is Daddy was the whole time.
When did she fully comprehend it all? I think that this was an ongoing process. She had an advantage over the Apostles, so she was always farther along the story, but I do think that it took until either the Resurection or Pentecost for it to all click. I am pretty sure she did not know he would suffer and die as he did.
A
allhers
Guest
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :extrahappy:
P
planten
Guest
** Most of the above is not true. Jesus loved his mother and his mother knew all about the status of Jesus even before he was born. This is all described in the Quran. She was told all the good things about a son who was promised even before she concieved him, even before she went out of the temple with Joseph the carpentar.Which is all of a piece with the insistence that Abraham’s children are not those who are circumcised in the flesh, but those who are circumcised in heart.
“The flesh profits nothing” (John 6) - bodily descent from Abraham is undercut completely, by Jesus’s insistence that his mother & brothers are those who do the Will of God; this lesson is reflected by St. Paul & St. John, and by the other Evangelists.
It may well have been shocking to hear such talk, but that would not make it untrue; this is something we need to learn too, IMO: Jesus threatens our religious securities, and our family ones (it’s amazing that such a family-Breaker is thought of as a guarantor of the stability of the family)
He is not affirming the family - not even His. He is redefining it, by counting as His family those who do the Will of His Father. The family is itself a good thing - so it can become a correspondingly hideous idol; and that is simply not on: nothing, not even the family, not even the family of Jesus Himself, is allowed to stand in the way of His uncompromising, total, unreserved, self-forgetting, self-sacrificing, universal, perfect obedience to His His Father in Heaven.
He also universalises His family - anyone can be his kin, if they have the same attitude as He does: His zeal for His Father’s Will; relationship to God is no longer by descent from Abraham. Jesus’ universal mission starts in His family, but cannot be confined to it.
ISTM that Daniel is saying things we Catholics need to hear - what we don’t like, may be just what we need to be told. It is not at all dissing Mary to insist that Our Lord’s Love for her is not the supreme motive for His acts - it wasn’t. She is not important enough for that - only the Father of Jesus, the God by Whose grace she became the mother of His Beloved Son, is *that *important.
To put it another way: the fact that even His Love for Mary could not be allowed to get in the way of Jesus’ utter dedication to His Father’s Will, allows Jesus’ Love for Mary to be great - yet even so, it is not allowed to be supreme. It can have a high place - provided it is not given the highest place. No creature is worthy to be loved with that total unbounded devotion - that love is so great, that God alone deserves it, because it is the Love of the Heart of the man Who is God. It would not make sense for God Incarnate to give to Mary, a creature, that Love which God alone can receive. For Jesus to prefer His mother to His Father, would make God an idolater (!)
Jesus was tempted to avoid the Cross by Peter - Peter surely did not mean to voice a temptation Jesus recognised as satanic, but that is how Jesus took what Peter said; even those closest to us can be stumbling blocks to us, with the best of intentions. It is a miracle, nothing less, if Mary was not as great a danger to her Son as Peter was, and surely not the least of her graces. ##
When Mary gave birth to Jesus (in difficult situation) in hopelessness, she was comforted and guided by Allah as to what to do. All these things are described in the chapter 3 of Quran and also chapter 19 titled “Maryam”.
The gospels have not done a good job with Mary the mother. They downplayed her and caused some disrespect from Jesus for her, as mentioned in the above post. The Quran has denied that too (19:32). It says that Jesus was very kind to his mother, that was after he had started preaching. It is mentioned “mother” and we feel that his father (Joseph) had died by then. That is why Jesus said that he was taught to be very kind and gentle to his mother (19:32).
Bible has forgotten (into oblivion) the greatest of all personages, Mary the mother of Jesus. The christians have disregarded her importance in the whole matter.
Let me tell you another thing. Mary was told by God (Through the angel, of course) that she need not enter into any dialogue or preaching about religion. She should not do any such good thing.( 19:26). All that would be done by her son (Jesus). This is all in the Quran.
I may post the relevant verses in this topic soon.
**
I
inJESUS
Guest
W
water
Guest
Understanding fully? To understand Jesus fully is to understand God fully - it is impossible for us to understand fully. For Blessed Virgin Mary, I don’t know as she was always pondering in Her Heart.
Believing? Sure, she did.
Believing? Sure, she did.
K
kristie_m
Guest
Despite the inevitable arguments, this is a rather interesting topic. As I began to pray the Rosary I found myself asking the same question…particularly as I prayed the Joyful Mysteries. I try to sort of put myself in Mary’s place emotionally…how I imagine she must have felt at the time of the annunciation. (How many questions and doubts I would have had!!) How, at the visitation, she must have been both reassured that she understood the message of Gabriel, and again, somewhat frightened by it’s implications. Christ’s birth drawing shepards and wise men…then at the presentation in the temple, having two people proclaim her baby to be the Messiah. Do you suppose she was really starting to get the picture then?
I have children of my own, and I was completely blown away that God would trust me so much as to allow me to raise them. Can you imagine the pressure of raising God’s own Son? She had to be “full of grace”!!
It wasn’t until watching Mel Gibsons “The Passion of the Christ” that I began to fully appreciate what Mary must have gone through. What remarkable faith that woman had! If God were to tell me that my child must suffer and die to redeem mankind, I think I’d be begging Him to find another way.
The way I figure it, she had to have known on some level. Otherwise she’d have done everything in her power to stop Jesus from following through with what must have looked like a mission of self-destruction.
I have children of my own, and I was completely blown away that God would trust me so much as to allow me to raise them. Can you imagine the pressure of raising God’s own Son? She had to be “full of grace”!!
It wasn’t until watching Mel Gibsons “The Passion of the Christ” that I began to fully appreciate what Mary must have gone through. What remarkable faith that woman had! If God were to tell me that my child must suffer and die to redeem mankind, I think I’d be begging Him to find another way.
The way I figure it, she had to have known on some level. Otherwise she’d have done everything in her power to stop Jesus from following through with what must have looked like a mission of self-destruction.
R
ralphinal
Guest
I meant it along the lines of understanding as well as a human can. You are correct that God cannot be understood here on earth. I doubt that after Pentecost, John or Peter understood any more than she did.
A
Archus
Guest
Man, I hate it when people say ‘She did. Enough said’, ‘No. Enough said’ without giving any logical argument/explanation to back up their claim.
Mary, is the mother of Christ. That much we can agree on. As a result, we can relate to this because some of us may be mothers, and indeed, I am sure all of us had mothers.
Having a mother, is an intimate relationship, built on a love so pure and personal that it is a force to be reckoned with. What we must remember is that our mothers held us in their wombs, from the time we were conceived to the moment we were welcomed into the wide world. For that period, we were surrounded in her warmth, and loving embrace and protection.
An ideal case of a mother, she would have carried us willingly, because she wanted to be a mother. Now, being a man I can’t relate to this, but I am guessing that the idea of being a mother, and then the feeling of your child, another human being growing inside you, that will change a woman.
Mary, a young Jew, was told by Gabriel that not only was she ‘full of grace’, but that she was to be the mother of God, Jesus Christ. Now, ‘full of grace’ means that she was filled with God her entire life, and that she was free from all sin, forever. She is not a sinner, she, like her son, is the perfect role model for being pure and sinless, hence her title, the Virgin Mary, one who is in a state of purity, of virginity.
The Magnificat tells us that she is someone special. She understands what has happened in the Old Covenant, and that the time of fulfillment is at hand. Her humility and trust in God is why she is both chosen and is full of grace; she trusts God.
So, in terms of fulfilling the covenant, and Jesus being the Christ, I have no doubt that she trusts Him. In the idea of getting to know her son, as only a mother can, I think that she loves him unconditionally, and that she grows to know Him, and as Scripture teaches, she kept everything in her heart. She carried Him in her womb, she birthed Him, nursed him with her breast. In times of fear and trouble, she comforted our Lord. When He was on the cross, she begged Him to let her die with Him.
She loves Jesus, because she is His mother. What kind of mother could she be if she did not believe in her own son?
Mary, is the mother of Christ. That much we can agree on. As a result, we can relate to this because some of us may be mothers, and indeed, I am sure all of us had mothers.
Having a mother, is an intimate relationship, built on a love so pure and personal that it is a force to be reckoned with. What we must remember is that our mothers held us in their wombs, from the time we were conceived to the moment we were welcomed into the wide world. For that period, we were surrounded in her warmth, and loving embrace and protection.
An ideal case of a mother, she would have carried us willingly, because she wanted to be a mother. Now, being a man I can’t relate to this, but I am guessing that the idea of being a mother, and then the feeling of your child, another human being growing inside you, that will change a woman.
Mary, a young Jew, was told by Gabriel that not only was she ‘full of grace’, but that she was to be the mother of God, Jesus Christ. Now, ‘full of grace’ means that she was filled with God her entire life, and that she was free from all sin, forever. She is not a sinner, she, like her son, is the perfect role model for being pure and sinless, hence her title, the Virgin Mary, one who is in a state of purity, of virginity.
The Magnificat tells us that she is someone special. She understands what has happened in the Old Covenant, and that the time of fulfillment is at hand. Her humility and trust in God is why she is both chosen and is full of grace; she trusts God.
So, in terms of fulfilling the covenant, and Jesus being the Christ, I have no doubt that she trusts Him. In the idea of getting to know her son, as only a mother can, I think that she loves him unconditionally, and that she grows to know Him, and as Scripture teaches, she kept everything in her heart. She carried Him in her womb, she birthed Him, nursed him with her breast. In times of fear and trouble, she comforted our Lord. When He was on the cross, she begged Him to let her die with Him.
She loves Jesus, because she is His mother. What kind of mother could she be if she did not believe in her own son?
P
planten
Guest
**Interesting discussion from the church point of view I am a Muslim. Please know this matter from the Muslim point of view. Briefly, (All from the Quran)…
- Mary is sinless. Even the devil does not come near her. All good believers of any faiths are likened to Mary in Quran. She is the symbol of purity.
- Jesus was sinless too.
- Mary was told all about the conception and birth of a son even before she left the synagogue (temple).
- Mary was told all about the special qualities of her son and his mission before his birth.
- Mary was guided by God at the time of delivery and even afterwards.
- All that I am writing is in the Quran. No doubt about it.
- Mary used to preach i.e. address and guide people while she was in temple.
- She used to pray to God and God gave her special fruits (knowledge).
- While still in the temple and no hope of ever getting married, Mary was told that she will bear a son and that son will be a messenger for the Israelis.
- That son would perform miracles. In other words, Mary knew all about Jesus even before conceiving him.
- She was forbidden to speak (guide, teach, address) when Jesus was born. She was told that she need not speak any more. The son will do all that.
Y
Yerusalyim
Guest
Mary always fully believed in Jesus…she didn’t always UNDERSTAND his mission.
P
planten
Guest
**Why? Was she dull? or not concerned? or irreligious? What could be the cause of not understanding the mission of Jesus?
According to Quran, she was told all about the mission of Jesus even before she concieved him. Only she did not have to argue on behalf of Jesus to support him. That is also mentioned in the Quran (19:26)
[19:24] Then the angel called her from beneath her, saying, 'Grieve not. Thy Lord has placed a rivulet below thee;
[19:25] 'And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree; it will drop upon thee fresh ripe dates;
[19:26] 'So, eat and drink and cool thine eye. And if thou seest any man, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to the Gracious God; I will, therefore, not speak this day to any human being.’
[19:27] Then she brought him to her people, mounted. They said, 'O Mary, surely, thou hast committed a monstrous thing!
She knew all about the mission of Jesus. Was she not with him when Jesus went to Jaroshlem?**
A
Angelos
Guest
The annunciation by the angel did NOT let the Virgin know EVERYTHING about Jesus’ mission. For instance, the prediction of Jesus’ passion was revealed to Mary when She encountered prophet Simeon in the temple forty days after Jesus’ nativity. Likewise, the Virgin and Joseph became familiar with Jesus’ amazing knowledge of the Law when Jesus was 12 years old.
The Koran does not claim that the annunciation enabled Virgin Mary to know EVERYTHING about Jesus’ mission either. For instance, the angel tells Mary NOTHING about Jesus’ future denial by Jews and their attemps to harm Him. Accordingly, Mary in the Koran seems to be absolutely unaware of Jesus’ supposed assumption to heaven and His relevant salvation from death.
Does this mean that the Koran defines Mary as a dull or irreligious person?
The answer is YES according to the New Testament.
The answer is NO according to the Koran. (The Islamic scripture does not even imply that Mary was with Jesus when He went to Jerusalem).
J
jkarp
Guest
If you want to downplay Mary’s importance, this is a good scripture passage for you NOT to bring up. In the passage of the wedding at Cana, Jesus tells his mother that the Plan says that it isn’t time to start his public ministry. Mary’s response? CHANGE THE PLAN. And it happened, Jesus changed the plan and did as his mother wished. If Mary was not important, why does she have the ability to change His perfect, divine plan?
P
planten
Guest
I am replying only to you last para above. I don’t know what bible says about it but the Quran is a high level language, brief in some way, and it is telling that Mary brought her son (Jesus ) before the people** mounted**. The people did not accept him and said that she had brought a strange (bad) thing to them. Please read the verse 19:27 again which I had posted earlier. See it again below:The annunciation by the angel did NOT let the Virgin know EVERYTHING about Jesus’ mission. For instance, the prediction of Jesus’ passion was revealed to Mary when She encountered prophet Simeon in the temple forty days after Jesus’ nativity. Likewise, the Virgin and Joseph became familiar with Jesus’ amazing knowledge of the Law when Jesus was 12 years old.
The Koran does not claim that the annunciation enabled Virgin Mary to know EVERYTHING about Jesus’ mission either. For instance, the angel tells Mary NOTHING about Jesus’ future denial by Jews and their attemps to harm Him. Accordingly, Mary in the Koran seems to be absolutely unaware of Jesus’ supposed assumption to heaven and His relevant salvation from death.
Does this mean that the Koran defines Mary as a dull or irreligious person?
The answer is YES according to the New Testament.
The answer is NO according to the Koran. (The Islamic scripture does not even imply that Mary was with Jesus when He went to Jerusalem).
[19:24] Then the angel called her from beneath her, saying, 'Grieve not. Thy Lord has placed a rivulet below thee;
[19:25] 'And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree; it will drop upon thee fresh ripe dates;
[19:26] 'So, eat and drink and cool thine eye. And if thou seest any man, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to the Gracious God; I will, therefore, not speak this day to any human being.’
[19:27] Then she brought him to her people, mounted. They said, 'O Mary, surely, thou hast committed a monstrous thing!
S
SORROWS
Guest
Perfect! As well, the verse on Simeon in Luke 2:34-34.
The Blessed Mother with Joseph presented their Beloved Son Jesus in the Temple like all parents for blessings. But Simeon knew who they were and that Jesus was the Massiah. He foretold the suffering Mary would endure, **“Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is opposed (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also) so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”
**
Imagine the pain and sorrows that the Blessed Mother must have felt hearing these words. She knew that her Son Jesus’s ministry would be opposed and she would suffer along with her Son greatly.
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