When did Michael and co drive Lucifer and co from Heaven?

[Blue_Horizon]

What state were the good angels in at the time of this “battle”?
We know that all the angels (good and bad) at the moment of their creation received sanctifying grace (as did Adam and Eve). But not the Beatific Vision (ie Heaven).

So … had the good angels already entered into the Beatific Vision (ie truly in Heaven) when God commanded them to “relieve the bad angels of their pre-Beatific Vision grace.”

Actually, what was the battle really about? How could it be a casting down from Heaven if none of the bad angel dudes were actually in Heaven at that “time” anyhow? And if the bad angels were already in Heaven - then of course they could not be bad, nor would there be reason to cast them down.

Or was it this very battle that decided who was good and who bad and who should enter into the Beatific Vision? Not exactly a casting down from “Heaven”. I do understand “Heaven” means “sky” so it should probably be better understood as a throwing into Hell.

But then I may be mistaken. Thoughts?

 

[Skye_Ariel]

All of the angels lived in Heaven with God for a long time. Remember, Lucifer was the most beautiful angel of them all and the highest ranked angel of all the angels. The only one higher than lucifer was God. Then pride entered into lucifer and He decided he wanted to challenge God and he went and recruited 1/3 of the other angels in Heaven to get on his side. That’s when the battle took place and lucifer and his followers were cast out of Heaven.

Where do you get the idea that the angels were not in Heaven???

That’s what made the fall of the angels so unforgivable was because they were there with God and were in the Beatific Vision when they decided to turn their back on it.

 

[Polycarp1]

All of the angels lived in Heaven with God for a long time.

God and spirits do not exist in time or space. God is eternally present. It is man who marks time in a linear fashion and God speaks to us in ways that we will understand, but after all how does the all knowing all seeing “eternal Being” explain himself to man with our limited capacity and intellect.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Creation and the Angels
by Rev. William G. Most, EWTN

The angels were not created in heaven, that is, with the vision of God. If they had had that, sin would have been impossible. But God gave the angels some sort of command–we do not know what–and some obeyed, some did not. Those who disobeyed were fixed in evil, and became devils.

An even more extensive article by Fr. John Hardon S.J. : Demons are the Angels Who Fell by Their Disobedience to the Will of God

Excerpt:

Under pressure of erroneous ideas over the centuries, the Church has taught infallibly that all the angels were originally in the state of God’s friendship but like us, had to prove their fidelity to the Lord and thus merit the Beatific Vision. Those who failed in this test of loyalty became demons.

 

[mercytruth]

This is what the apostle Paul has written from his epistle to the church of Ephesus:

For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places

**And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— **

God’s peace prevails

micah

 

[lakotak]

Since Michael and Lucifer were pure spirits, what was the nature of the battle? Since they were not human having bodies, I guess they did not wield swords. Was it a battle on the intellectual level?

 

[MichaelHowling]

They were made before God and given the beatific vision. Eternity was their natural state. Being pure spirit, they had superhuman intelligence and being before the beatific vision had an amazing amount of forknowledge and understanding. Also being in eternity…any decisions they made were for eternity since they are outside of time. They were able to be in heaven because at this point…they never were given a choice.

It’s theorized that they were given a vision of the future in that man would fall (who would be lower on the state of things being both physical and spiritual and not pure spirit like angels and god…) that God would become a man (detestible to some) and that even the angels would honor and serve them …mary as their very queen.

This was their test, love demands choice! Some rejoiced at Gods mercy and goodness…others turned inward and said “what about me!”

Satan’s battle cry “I will not serve!” and many followed in with Him.

Their intellects being so pure and strong , “to whom much is given, much is expected” …and since they were in eternity …their choice was complete and infinate.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Yes, being pure spirits…the battle was a battle of intellect and will.

This battle has spilled over into the human world. All sin originates from this area. They know their war with God is over, however, they go after the next best thing…God’s children who bear His image which they now detest because of the poor state they find themselves in. Their hatred is absolute toward that image and anything connected to God…because of the purity of their decision.

It’s an extrememly violent battle.

 

[lakotak]

They were made before God and given the beatific vision. Eternity was their natural state. Being pure spirit, they had superhuman intelligence and being before the beatific vision had an amazing amount of forknowledge and understanding. Also being in eternity…any decisions they made were for eternity since they are outside of time. They were able to be in heaven because at this point…they never were given a choice.

It’s theorized that they were given a vision of the future in that man would fall (who would be lower on the state of things being both physical and spiritual and not pure spirit like angels and god…) that God would become a man (detestible to some) and that even the angels would honor and serve them …mary as their very queen.

This was their test, love demands choice! Some rejoiced at Gods mercy and goodness…others turned inward and said “what about me!”

Satan’s battle cry “I will not serve!” and many followed in with Him.

Their intellects being so pure and strong , “to whom much is given, much is expected” …and since they were in eternity …their choice was complete and infinate.

How could they have turned away if they were given the beatific vision? If this was the case could not an angel still turn away from God at anytime?

 

[MichaelHowling]

You’re right. They must not have been given the fullness of the beatific vision at that time until after their test.

 

[steve_b]

How could they have turned away if they were given the beatific vision? If this was the case could not an angel still turn away from God at anytime?

The point is they did.

Lk 10:18 "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

CCC
**391 **Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."

Angles also have* memory intellect and will.* And those particular angels used those powers against God.

 

[lakotak]

The point is they did.

Lk 10:18 "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

CCC
**391 **Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."

Angles also have* memory intellect and will.* And those particular angels used those powers against God.

I am not disputing this. Only replying to the post of Michael regarding the beatific vision. If the Lucifer saw the beatific vision and was able to turn from God, then could any angel or human spirit in heaven also turn away at any point after that? I was under the understanding that once you saw God face to face then you would not be wanting to ever turn from him.

 

[PeterGStanley]

So I always wanted to ask where does all this information come from - what is the source?How do we have all this information on what happened?

 

[steve_b]

I am not disputing this. Only replying to the post of Michael regarding the beatific vision. If the Lucifer saw the beatific vision and was able to turn from God, then could any angel or human spirit in heaven also turn away at any point after that?

No worries, I knew where you were coming from

Yes, While it’s inconceivable to think angels in the presence of God, would go against God, the point is, some did. They had their test as angels in heaven, and some failed, just as we go through our test as humans here on earth, and as Jesus says many fail. otoh, When we get to heaven, our test is over. That’s when we have no more worries. Unlike those angels who were in heaven and rebelled, failing their test, we otoh, when we get to heaven all the testing we had here is over. We are completely safe. As a reference, think of the conversation Abraham had with the richman. Both are dead and are in different realities after death, one is in peace the other is in torment. Can Abraham go from this place of comfort that he is in, to where the richman is? No. The reference of seperation is a chasam that is fixed, it can’t be crossed by either party in the story. And remember, Jesus is telling the story. Where Abraham and Lazarus are then, is when one can use the phrase once saved always saved…that is, once one is in heaven, or one is in purgatory obviously destined for heaven, then they are saved for all eternity and nothing can/will change that.
l:

I was under the understanding that once you saw God face to face then you would not be wanting to ever turn from him.

I would just say, we’re different beings from angels. While our tests as humans are different from the ones the angels had, our goal is the same. To love serve and obey God…

For example. Here’s one of our tests

Jesus is God…right? Did people talk to Him (God) face to face and He taught people face to face what He wanted them to do? Yes. Did many walk away from Him, saying in a sense, I will not serve? [Jn 6:66]? Yes.

Like the angels who rebelled against God in heaven, couldn’t someone say to those in [Jn6:66] how in the world if Jesus (God incarnate) is taklking to you face to face, given all that He is, and all that you saw, could you walk away from Him?

.The test is not all that dissimilar nor are the results

 

[lakotak]

No worries, I knew where you were coming from

Yes, While it’s inconceivable to think angels in the presence of God, would go against God, the point is, some did. They had their test as angels in heaven, and some failed, just as we go through our test as humans here on earth, and as Jesus says many fail. otoh, When we get to heaven, our test is over. That’s when we have no more worries. Unlike those angels who were in heaven and rebelled, failing their test, we otoh, when we get to heaven all the testing we had here is over. We are completely safe. As a reference, think of the conversation Abraham had with the richman. Both are dead and are in different realities after death, one is in peace the other is in torment. Can Abraham go from this place of comfort that he is in, to where the richman is? No. The reference of seperation is a chasam that is fixed, it can’t be crossed by either party in the story. And remember, Jesus is telling the story. Where Abraham and Lazarus are then, is when one can use the phrase once saved always saved…that is, once one is in heaven, or one is in purgatory obviously destined for heaven, then they are saved for all eternity and nothing can/will change that.

I would just say, we’re different beings from angels. While our tests as humans are different from the ones the angels had, our goal is the same. To love serve and obey God…

For example. Here’s one of our tests

**Jesus is God…right? Did people talk to Him (God) face to face and He taught people face to face what He wanted them to do? Yes. Did many walk away from Him, saying in a sense, I will not serve? [Jn 6:66]? Yes.

Like the angels who rebelled against God in heaven, couldn’t someone say to those in [Jn6:66] how in the world if Jesus (God incarnate) is taklking to you face to face, given all that He is, and all that you saw**, could you walk away from Him?

.The test is not all that dissimilar nor are the results

Jesus spoke to the people in his humanity, not in all of his glory. It seems as though what is being said is that the angels saw God in all of his glory and was still able to turn away. It seem if this is true then anyone in heaven is free to turn away from God if they determine a reason to do so. If Lucifer saw the beatific vision, God in all his glory, he still had the free will to turn from him because he decided he would not serve because of what God related to him. If this is true, then why would it not apply to all, at least in theory, that are in heaven now. If God’s Love could not hold Lucifer in heaven, then is it possible that His Love cannot hold anyone else in heaven? Just a thought.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

You’re right. They must not have been given the fullness of the beatific vision at that time until after their test.

Yes, now you understands the question

Now lets look forward to some considered responses .

 

[Blue_Horizon]

All of the angels lived in Heaven with God for a long time. Remember, Lucifer was the most beautiful angel of them all and the highest ranked angel of all the angels. The only one higher than lucifer was God. Then pride entered into lucifer and He decided he wanted to challenge God and he went and recruited 1/3 of the other angels in Heaven to get on his side. That’s when the battle took place and lucifer and his followers were cast out of Heaven.

Where do you get the idea that the angels were not in Heaven???

That’s what made the fall of the angels so unforgivable was because they were there with God and were in the Beatific Vision when they decided to turn their back on it.

You may want to read the Catechism a little more before continuing down this track SK

 

[Blue_Horizon]

God and spirits do not exist in time or space. God is eternally present. It is man who marks time in a linear fashion and God speaks to us in ways that we will understand, but after all how does the all knowing all seeing “eternal Being” explain himself to man with our limited capacity and intellect.

Of course. But given the fact that angels etc have been talked about we may as well try and understand what little that has been given us correctly .

 

[Blue_Horizon]

This is what the apostle Paul has written from his epistle to the church of Ephesus:

For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places

**And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— **

God’s peace prevails

micah

MT I am presuming we all know what Scripture says.
The point is trying to understand it.
Your quote above appears to be addressing the fight between angels and men, not angels and angels. Maybe I have missed something .

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Creation and the Angels
by Rev. William G. Most, EWTN

An even more extensive article by Fr. John Hardon S.J. : Demons are the Angels Who Fell by Their Disobedience to the Will of God

Excerpt:

Thanks for the article NI. Unfortunately it does not seem to answer my main questions…

(1) What is meant by “driving the dragon out of heaven” if the dragon never was in heaven (friendship with God is not heaven, only the Beatific Vision is properly called heaven).

(2) Was Michael already in heaven (i.e. admitted to the BeatificVision, or still being “tested” when he did this?).

Its of no theological consequence, but an interesting speculation all the same .