When did Michael and co drive Lucifer and co from Heaven?

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MichaelHowling said:
They were made before God and given the beatific vision. Eternity was their natural state. Being pure spirit, they had superhuman intelligence and being before the beatific vision had an amazing amount of forknowledge and understanding. Also being in eternity…any decisions they made were for eternity since they are outside of time. They were able to be in heaven because at this point…they never were given a choice.
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MH if I understand you correctly you I don’t think you will find the Catechism backing you up on this one.
 
Second time - with highlights this time around:
NeedImprovement said:
Creation and the Angels
by Rev. William G. Most, EWTN
The angels were not created in heaven, that is, with the vision of God
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Under pressure of erroneous ideas over the centuries, the Church has taught infallibly that all the angels were originally in the state of God’s friendship but like us, had to prove their fidelity to the Lord and thus merit the Beatific Vision. Those who failed in this test of loyalty became demons.
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lakotak said:
I am not disputing this. Only replying to the post of Michael regarding the beatific vision. If the Lucifer saw the beatific vision and was able to turn from God, then could any angel or human spirit in heaven also turn away at any point after that? I was under the understanding that once you saw God face to face then you would not be wanting to ever turn from him.
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I believe this is correct lakotak.
My above questions presumed contributors would be aware of this tenet of the Catholic Church. It looks like we have to get this communicated before continuing ;).
 
lakotak said:
Jesus spoke to the people in his humanity, not in all of his glory. It seems as though what is being said is that the angels saw God in all of his glory and was still able to turn away. It seem if this is true then anyone in heaven is free to turn away from God if they determine a reason to do so. If Lucifer saw the beatific vision, God in all his glory, he still had the free will to turn from him because he decided he would not serve because of what God related to him. If this is true, then why would it not apply to all, at least in theory, that are in heaven now. If God’s Love could not hold Lucifer in heaven, then is it possible that His Love cannot hold anyone else in heaven? Just a thought.
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Guys, this is really a tangent to the original question I have asked for discussion here.

I would like to move the discussion forward. Lets assume that everybody here accepts standard Catholic theology that the “Beatific Vision” is by very definition, in crude terms, irreversible.
If you aren’t clear about Church teaching on this matter by all means start your own thread. Thanks 👍
 
lakotak said:
Jesus spoke to the people in his humanity, not in all of his glory. It seems as though what is being said is that the angels saw God in all of his glory and was still able to turn away. It seem if this is true then anyone in heaven is free to turn away from God if they determine a reason to do so.
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We can’t play down the fact people saw Jesus do quite a lot. Raising people from the dead, curing blindness, leopracy, lameness, changing water into wine, walking on water, not to mention His own rising from the dead etc etc
l:
If Lucifer saw the beatific vision, God in all his glory, he still had the free will to turn from him because he decided he would not serve because of what God related to him. If this is true, then why would it not apply to all, at least in theory, that are in heaven now. If God’s Love could not hold Lucifer in heaven, then is it possible that His Love cannot hold anyone else in heaven? Just a thought.
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Do we have reference that some angels, were kicked out of heaven? Yes.
Do we have reference that people who were in heaven were kicked out of heaven? No

We have the Church and scripture, so we don’t have to base our teachings on “theory”
 
Blue_Horizon said:
MT I am presuming we all know what Scripture says.
The point is trying to understand it.
Your quote above appears to be addressing the fight between angels and men, not angels and angels. Maybe I have missed something 😊.
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I think it is speculation to give answers to your inquiry. I do not know if Lucifer has been driven from ‘heaven’ as it seems that it may yet happen prior to the appearance of the anti-christ.

So, ‘heaven’ might refer to the atmospheric heaven where the apostle Paul says the prince of power of the ‘air’ and of this age resides. When Jesus returns, the saints will be raised and meet the Lord in the ‘air’. Perhaps this is when Lucifer and his fallen angels will be cast to the earth. This is all speculation. We have the prophet Isaiah, the prophet Ezekiel who seem to write somethings on this matter. For myself, it is all speculation.

As far as I can tell, all that we know is that Lucifer desired to be like God, and that pride is his undoing.

God’s peace

micah
 
I believe “heaven” to be some etherial space where pure spirits were able to reside before their test. I believe that is what was meant by the term heaven in these instances.
 
Meaning they were never meant for a substancial exhistence like we humans having corporal bodies needed an earth for our time of trials.
 
lakotak said:
Since Michael and Lucifer were pure spirits, what was the nature of the battle? Since they were not human having bodies, I guess they did not wield swords. Was it a battle on the intellectual level?
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That’s a good question. 🙂
lakotak said:
I am not disputing this. Only replying to the post of Michael regarding the beatific vision. If the Lucifer saw the beatific vision and was able to turn from God, then could any angel or human spirit in heaven also turn away at any point after that? I was under the understanding that once you saw God face to face then you would not be wanting to ever turn from him.
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I think for us humans that’s true, that once we see God’s face we will be incapable of turning away but the angels were made higher than us and they are capable of doing things we can’t, things we can’t even understand which is why their sin was on a higher level and more permanent level than ours. So that’s true for the angels but not for us. Plus the angels that are there now after the battle, their choice to stay with God is a permanent choice. 🙂
 
mercytruth said:
I think it is speculation to give answers to your inquiry. I do not know if Lucifer has been driven from ‘heaven’ as it seems that it may yet happen prior to the appearance of the anti-christ.

So, ‘heaven’ might refer to the atmospheric heaven where the apostle Paul says the prince of power of the ‘air’ and of this age resides. When Jesus returns, the saints will be raised and meet the Lord in the ‘air’. Perhaps this is when Lucifer and his fallen angels will be cast to the earth. This is all speculation. We have the prophet Isaiah, the prophet Ezekiel who seem to write somethings on this matter. For myself, it is all speculation.

As far as I can tell, all that we know is that Lucifer desired to be like God, and that pride is his undoing.

God’s peace

micah
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I think it is speculation to give answers to your inquiry
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Of course. Yet so is theology, it evolves beyond Scripture yet is not inconsistent with Scripture. The problem thus far is that some of the suggestions/speculation here does not accord with Catholic Theology. I was hoping for contributions that do harmonise with Catholic theology.
I do not know if Lucifer has been driven from ‘heaven’
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Unless you can provide a source to the contrary I believe it is incontrovertible for Catholics that there was division amongst the angels and Lucifer and his followers got the boot.
This thread appears to have established that “heaven” in this context means their original state at their instant of creation - which was “friendship with God” but NOT “seeing God face to face.”
So, ‘heaven’ might refer to the atmospheric heaven where the apostle Paul says the prince of power of the ‘air’ and of this age resides.
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Interesting but I do not think so.
(a) Lucifer certainly never made it to Heaven1 (seeing God face to face where the good angels now are)
(b) Lucifer got the boot from heaven2 (where all angels were originally created in friendship with God and got tested)
(c) Your heaven3 really seems to refer to Satan’s presently allowed place of transient dominion/power which is of course over “the World”. This is part of where he “got cast down to.” I suppose “Air” which is “sky” which is a literal translation of “Caelum” (the same word for heaven) in this context also connotates Satan’s dominion over the “Earth” or “This Age.” But of course we believe he really got cast down even further into “Hell” as his proper place which is where he will fully end up when his hand is taken off “the World”

But regardless of all this your option (c) still doesn’t seem to fly.
Heaven3 isn’t where Lucifer started out. And it is not where he was originally cast down from.
I agree he is still to be cast down from temporary dominion over the World back to Hell. But that is not what is being discussed here.
I think you have got things confused if you equate “the Air” (Satan’s present worldly dominion) with the heaven of Michael and the battle as being discussed above.
As far as I can tell, all that we know is that Lucifer desired to be like God, and that pride is his undoing.
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Yes that is taken for granted. My question is really about angels vs angels not angels vs God.

Lets remind ourselves of the question under discussion.
“Which heaven was Michael in when he cast out Lucifer?”
In other words:
(a) Did Michael (a lesser angel than Lucifer) require the grace of the Beatific Vision before he and the other angels had the strength to restrain Lucifer and his cohorts.
Or
(b) Did the battle take place with both Michael and Lucifer being in the “testing place”?
 
steve_b said:
I don’t agree. Why do you feel that way?
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SB a full and clear reading of preceeding contributions should make it crystal what Catholic tradition holds on this point and the reasons why.
You are free to hold differently but I am looking for contributions in accord with Catholicism.

Lucifer (Satan, the Dragon, call him what you will) never saw God face to face, never beheld the Beatific Vision. That means he never made it to the true Heaven - which is where all the steadfast angels now are. Have a good read of Aquinas (ST I,q50-64 especially q63).

If you still want to argue the point please start your own thread.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
Of course. Yet so is theology, it evolves beyond Scripture yet is not inconsistent with Scripture. The problem thus far is that some of the suggestions/speculation here does not accord with Catholic Theology. I was hoping for contributions that do harmonise with Catholic theology.

Unless you can provide a source to the contrary I believe it is incontrovertible for Catholics that there was division amongst the angels and Lucifer and his followers got the boot.
This thread appears to have established that “heaven” in this context means their original state at their instant of creation - which was “friendship with God” but NOT “seeing God face to face.”

Interesting but I do not think so.
(a) Lucifer certainly never made it to Heaven1 (seeing God face to face where the good angels now are)
(b) Lucifer got the boot from heaven2 (where all angels were originally created in friendship with God and got tested)
(c) Your heaven3 really seems to refer to Satan’s presently allowed place of transient dominion/power which is of course over “the World”. This is part of where he “got cast down to.” I suppose “Air” which is “sky” which is a literal translation of “Caelum” (the same word for heaven) in this context also connotates Satan’s dominion over the “Earth” or “This Age.” But of course we believe he really got cast down even further into “Hell” as his proper place which is where he will fully end up when his hand is taken off “the World”

But regardless of all this your option (c) still doesn’t seem to fly.
Heaven3 isn’t where Lucifer started out. And it is not where he was originally cast down from.
I agree he is still to be cast down from temporary dominion over the World back to Hell. But that is not what is being discussed here.
I think you have got things confused if you equate “the Air” (Satan’s present worldly dominion) with the heaven of Michael and the battle as being discussed above.

Yes that is taken for granted. My question is really about angels vs angels not angels vs God.

Lets remind ourselves of the question under discussion.
“Which heaven was Michael in when he cast out Lucifer?”
In other words:
(a) Did Michael (a lesser angel than Lucifer) require the grace of the Beatific Vision before he and the other angels had the strength to restrain Lucifer and his cohorts.
Or
(b) Did the battle take place with both Michael and Lucifer being in the “testing place”?
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The only scriptural reference to Michael the archangel and his angels battling Satan and his angels is in the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation is an eschatalogical book and as such is prone to many different interpretations.

Many of the early church fathers (post the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD) thought of the book as a future scenario of eschatology revolving around a future anti-christ prior to the return of Jesus Christ and the resurrection of the saints.

Thus, any theories on this battle between angels should be prioritized from an interpretation of the book of Revelation and from the interpretations of the early church fathers regarding this scriptural passage.

God’s peace

micah
 
Blue_Horizon said:
SB a full and clear reading of preceeding contributions should make it crystal what Catholic tradition holds on this point and the reasons why.
You are free to hold differently but I am looking for contributions in accord with Catholicism.

Lucifer (Satan, the Dragon, call him what you will) never saw God face to face, never beheld the Beatific Vision. That means he never made it to the true Heaven - which is where all the steadfast angels now are. Have a good read of Aquinas (ST I,q50-64 especially q63).

If you still want to argue the point please start your own thread.
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I read those sections of Aquinas. He doesn’t say in those arguments, that Satan (albeit he doesn’t use the name Satan) never saw God face to face.

If I understand your points (paraphrased)
  • heaven really wasn’t heaven in the beginning, as we know heaven to be.
  • their was a probation period for angels, where the angels, created beings, were not really face to face with God YET. They only had knowledge of God, but they had to pass their test first while in the probation phase in order to see Him.
  • Those that passed, THEN only those graduated to the beatific vision. Not until they passed the test. Therefore the others who didn’t pass never saw God face to face
Is that the gist of your argument?
 
steve_b said:
I read those sections of Aquinas. He doesn’t say in those arguments, that Satan (albeit he doesn’t use the name Satan) never saw God face to face.

If I understand your points (paraphrased)
  • heaven really wasn’t heaven in the beginning, as we know heaven to be.
  • their was a probation period for angels, where the angels, created beings, were not really face to face with God YET. They only had knowledge of God, but they had to pass their test first while in the probation phase in order to see Him.
  • Those that passed, THEN only those graduated to the beatific vision. Not until they passed the test. Therefore the others who didn’t pass never saw God face to face
Is that the gist of your argument?
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SteveB, as mentioned above I will no longer pursue this clear-cut side-issue with you. Please start your own thread elsewhere if you still disagree with standard Catholic tradition/theology and want to work through it further :o.

Its disappointing you seem so set in your own views that you have made no private effort to solve this one for yourself. In 15 secs I found the following very clear summary of Aquinas on this point:ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/ANGELS.TXT"]ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/ANGELS.TXT. It may be worthwhile to reflect whether you are more interested in winning an argument than searching for the truth :confused:.

If you are keen on theologising but cannot grasp the outlines of Aquinas’s system of theology (which underpins the Catechism) then I think you would get a lot out of a Theology paper at your local Catholic Divinity College 👍.
 
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