When did RCC start charging to use the Church for marriage?

[agapewolf]

Dets,

First of all, yes, it costs a lot of money for utilites for a church building, if you would read the rest of the tread. Why do you think the parish’s tithing should pay for your wedding? Guess what, people in the parish don’t tithe enough to keep the churches survival to begin with.

2nd of all, wedding coordinators are almost a necessity because of bride’s demnads. THey do SOOO Much…again, read the entire thread. This isn’t just a small job that a priest can do. The priest isn’t even around in the back in order to do half of the stuff because they are preparing for the sacraments.

3rd of all, the musician on staff is most likely not paid a full time salary, but one less because of the wedding and funeral income (kind of like tips for waiters).

4th of all, I’m sure you would have been allowed to have your marriage vows said at a parish mass for no cost at all.

Do more research before you start going off on things like this.

 

[stbruno]

I am sorry that you met with such roadblocks. If you were eventually married in the church, know that Jesus will be with you always even when the wine runs out like at the marriage feast of Cana. Remember to keep close to him always. If the only time you will enter the church is on your wedding day…that’s not enough to stay close to him. Like a branch that has broken off from the vine…your faith will wither. The gifts of grace bestowed on you at your wedding day will also be left hanging in some dusty corner. Stay close to the church, the bride of Christ…just as you are the spiritual bride of Jesus…Go out and meet Him!.

We do marriage prep in our church for couples. And yes, we do have fees for our marriage prep. And the musicians have their fees apart from the church fees. Those fees are nominal compared to the flowers, the dresses, the limos, the reception, etc that most of our couples have for their weddings. If you wanted a very simple ceremony in church of just the exchange of the vows in the presence of a priest or a deacon, I am sure an arrangement could have been made. However…most couples opt for the whole nine yards.

The first question, most bridal couples ask us…is do you have a long aisle? Rather than, can you help us plan our marriage. Remember the church is wise in the fact that it provides marriage prep…not just wedding day prep…which is only one day in your whole married life. That’s what is included in our parish fees…the course book other reference material, a FOCCUS inventory, diocesan resources, preliminary NFP teaching and several meetings afterward with a mentor couple including your wedding rehearsal and day.

I know that’s hard for someone who may have a sour taste in their mouth from a poor experience. But know this…you will remain in my prayers today.

 

[sacredcello]

To: Priest and Faithful
The intent of this letter is to educate, correct and create an awareness of Sacramental and sanctuary abuse in the Catholic Church by certain priests.

Hello Dets,

You have done a great service for me today. You have shown me that it is our fallen human nature that causes us to grumble, complain, and persecute Holy Mother Church in a multitude of ways. This is not a criticism of your post. You will find some of my grumbling in this thread.

However, I am now at peace with the arrangement I have made with my parish in order to pay the $1,500 fee for our private wedding ceremony which will take place on January 10, 2009. We will pay $300 a month for five months (have already made some of the payments). We also paid a $500 deposit to reserve the date, but we will receive this back if we do not violate any of the rules such as throwing rice or not vacating the parish in time for the 3:00 confessions, etc.

Keep in mind that all Catholic couples have the option of getting married at a regular parish Mass, just like baptisms, First Eucharist and confirmations. There is no abuse of the sacrament in getting married at a parish mass if one cannot afford to pay for a private ceremony.

I have had a change of heart and now I am deeply grateful.

God bless you.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Hello Dets,

You have done a great service for me today. You have shown me that it is our fallen human nature that causes us to grumble, complain, and persecute Holy Mother Church in a multitude of ways. This is not a criticism of your post. You will find some of my grumbling in this thread.

However, I am now at peace with the arrangement I have made with my parish in order to pay the $1,500 fee for our private wedding ceremony which will take place on January 10, 2009. We will pay $300 a month for five months (have already made some of the payments). We also paid a $500 deposit to reserve the date, but we will receive this back if we do not violate any of the rules such as throwing rice or not vacating the parish in time for the 3:00 confessions, etc.

Keep in mind that all Catholic couples have the option of getting married at a regular parish Mass, just like baptisms, First Eucharist and confirmations. There is no abuse of the sacrament in getting married at a parish mass if one cannot afford to pay for a private ceremony.

I have had a change of heart and now I am deeply grateful.

God bless you.

I am glad you got everything worked out!
Prayers for you and your future spouse!

 

[Sarabande]

I am glad you got everything worked out!
Prayers for you and your future spouse!

I’ll second that!!! All the best and blessings to you and your family, Sacredcello.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Dets,

What you said you experienced seems to be horrible. However, as somebody who has worked in the parish, I would really like to see not only the priest’s side of this, but the parish staff.

You slid the payment under the door, and thought you were going to simply walk away, paying that amount?

Again- For your private wedding, you expected the parish to pick up the tab?

If you truly had a complaint with your parish, you could have called the deanery, then the chancery of your diocese.

And all those scripture quotes, without canon law and Church (capital C) teaching- Firstly, your multiple posts are very long and hard to read. Secondly, the Catholic Church is not sola scriptura, that is, based soley on scripture. Catholic parishes are not organized and run soley on scripture quotes. Finally, if I wanted to spend the time to counter it, your scriptural argument has big holes.

The fact remains, if indeed what you say is true, you had one experience in one parish with one priest. Did you go to another parish? If you did, you might have fared better,and inthis case, it would not have been parish shopping. Did you go to the diocese to report what you thought was simony? If not, then why not?

You wanted it done your way. You even said so.

In my case, it happened after the Pastor agreed to** allow me to use his church for my Marriage**

and we set the day of the wedding.

You didn’t look at the whole enchilada first, including the parish rules, even the diocese rules, regarding the use of the parish church for **your **wedding. The priest was wrong, in not explaning them to you before he agreed to a date, if that is what happened. I am sure his staff nailed his fanny to the wall on that one. But you didn’t ask. You simply assumed.

The music director has to be paid by the parish every month, even if the couple does not use him or her. The electric bill has to be paid every month, and whatever that brings (lights? Air conditioning? Heat in modern churches?). The couple still has to be catechized on marriage, and that usually involves books and time. Even if the bridal room is not used, it is still available and there- and this may suprise you, but not every parish has a bridal room, very few of them where I am. All those take MONEY.

It is one thing to believe that God will provide. It is another thing entirely to presume anything about God, and can be in fact sinful to expect God to do what He expects us to do.

 

[juliasmith]

Wow. I suppose we are fortunate in my area. Our churches still offer free use of their facilities for sacramental ceremonies. We paid the priest what we could afford for my son’s baptism. The church even provided the candle and the baptism stole that we got to keep. But then, our area churches don’t have a problem with a lack of tithes and offerings.

 

[Sarabande]

Wow. I suppose we are fortunate in my area. Our churches still offer free use of their facilities for sacramental ceremonies. We paid the priest what we could afford for my son’s baptism. The church even provided the candle and the baptism stole that we got to keep. But then, our area churches don’t have a problem with a lack of tithes and offerings.

That’s key.

 

[Sarabande]

The music director has to be paid by the parish every month, even if the couple does not use him or her. The electric bill has to be paid every month, and whatever that brings (lights? Air conditioning? Heat in modern churches?). The couple still has to be catechized on marriage, and that usually involves books and time. Even if the bridal room is not used, it is still available and there- and this may suprise you, but not every parish has a bridal room, very few of them where I am. All those take MONEY.

Thank you for explaining this again. Also, again - the salary of a music director is many times determined by the estimated amount of weddings and funerals. They subtract the amount of weddings/funerals they think the parish will have from the salary and expect the music director to make that amount if and/or when a wedding/funeral comes up. It is also sometimes in the contract between the church and the music director. So, if a couple decides to use another musician, they are breaking the contract between the parish and the contracted church musician, so the fee must be paid.

 

[sacredcello]

I’ll second that!!! All the best and blessings to you and your family, Sacredcello.

Thank you!

The good news about having our own private ceremony instead of getting married at the 4:00 parish Mass is that we will be able to plan our own music. The members of the schola (all professional singers) have volunteered to sing. Plus, all my string player colleagues and trumpet player have as well. Of course, if we were to pay all of these friends what they are worth, it would be thousands of dollars. So, we are deeply touched that they are so generous with their time.

 

[Sarabande]

Thank you!

The good news about having our own private ceremony instead of getting married at the 4:00 parish Mass is that we will be able to plan our own music. The members of the schola (all professional singers) have volunteered to sing. Plus, all my string player colleagues and trumpet player have as well. Of course, if we were to pay all of these friends what they are worth, it would be thousands of dollars. So, we are deeply touched that they are so generous with their time.

That is going to be so spiritually beautiful!!! Please post photos and let us know how it all went.
I do know what you mean. As you know, sacred music for musicians is an important part of our prayer during mass. Our choir, organist and my voice teacher were very generous in performing for our nuptial mass as well, as we would have never been able to afford it had we paid them. We’re very fortunate, aren’t we?

I just sang in a quartet for a wedding mass last Saturday. The couple hired four singers, a brass quartet and an organist. They spent about $2000 on all of us. Usually, when you see something like this, people will sometimes think it may be an over-the-top wedding. Au contraire - to my surprise and pleasure! haha! It was such a reverent mass. The couple were very devout. They had 7 priests concelebrate the mass and they all processed down the aisle. A relative of the groom married them. He was very young (around 30). I saw the groom praying silently in the chapel prior to the wedding. The bride had a beautiful gown with short sleeves (kind of reminiscent of the 1950s bride gowns). It’s rare that you see gowns like that especially made with the real silk material that hers was made. I wonder if it was a vintage gown. Her bridesmaids wore chiffon shawls around their shoulders. There were a few women on the bride’s side that wore hats - another unusual thing to see nowadays - not that it means they were spiritual people. I just found it novel. There were about 300+ guests and about 30 kids, which I found delightful to see that they were including everyone in witnessing the special Sacrament. (I was in the choir loft, so we have a bird’s eye view of it all.) The priest chanted the Gospel from the ambo in the Cathedral. We chanted the mass parts in Latin. The priest and us also chanted the responses in English. All that, and nothing about it was over-the-top, I think mainly because the couple did it out of their faith and spiritual connection with God and not as a show. It showed. And from what the priest who was related to them said during the homily - the couple were a couple of faith and love of God. That mass and the Sacrament was extremely important to them. It was a beautiful and spiritual wedding. I was happy to be a part of it that day. It’s such a gift when you experience a wedding like that, especially as someone who does a lot of them a year.

 

[agapewolf]

Our choir, organist and my voice teacher were very generous in ***performing ***for our nuptial mass as well, as we would have never been able to afford it had we paid them. We’re very fortunate, aren’t we?

r.

I know you didn’t mean it like this, but it sounds really bad. Musicians at Mass are in no way nor should they ever be performing.

But I know you didn’t mean it like this. It just sounds bad.

 

[Ignatius]

My sister is getting married and all of the churches she has checked into are charging between $150 & $1000 for the use of the Church, even if you are a member. When did this start? When my other sisters got married 10 years ago & 15 years ago, the church was free. Of course, you paid the musician & the priest but you didn’t have to pay to use the Church.

Are there any issues with this couple? Maybe this is the parishes way of trying to get them to go somewhere else for some reason! That’s what I would figure.

 

[Sarabande]

I know you didn’t mean it like this, but it sounds really bad. Musicians at Mass are in no way nor should they ever be performing.

But I know you didn’t mean it like this. It just sounds bad.

I know… to some people that may sound bad… it’s hard to find certain words when using your instrument or your voice for a mass. I know that most church musicians will know what I meant, like you, but I also realize that there are people here who aren’t musicians or those who already have a prejudice against musicians in general and may take it the wrong way.

Musicians at mass aren’t “performing” per say. We all know that, but there is no real good word to describe what we do. Since I was including choristers, cantors and instrumentalists in the phrase you quoted, I didn’t have a word prepared quickly enough to describe them as a whole. I haven’t really found one that sounds right. To cantor a mass is perfect, so no trouble there. Describing a choir is not so bad either - singing the mass, but even that sounds a little too light for the serious role that a musician is a part of for mass. “Playing” at mass also doesn’t sound right either. We’re not playing. Fingering the organ consul, the piano keys or guitar or other instrument? Using your ambiture to blow the trumpets, bowing the violin? None of these sound right either. I think that is why people still use “perform”. It’s the lesser of two evils.

Perhaps we could say “praying the mass through music”? It’s nice, but I wish there was just one word to describe it. What do you use?

 

[agapewolf]

I know… to some people that may sound bad… it’s hard to find certain words when using your instrument or your voice for a mass. I know that most church musicians will know what I meant, like you, but I also realize that there are people here who aren’t musicians or those who already have a prejudice against musicians in general and may take it the wrong way.

Musicians at mass aren’t “performing” per say. We all know that, but there is no real good word to describe what we do. Since I was including choristers, cantors and instrumentalists in the phrase you quoted, I didn’t have a word prepared quickly enough to describe them as a whole. I haven’t really found one that sounds right. To cantor a mass is perfect, so no trouble there. Describing a choir is not so bad either - singing the mass, but even that sounds a little too light for the serious role that a musician is a part of for mass. “Playing” at mass also doesn’t sound right either. We’re not playing. Fingering the organ consul, the piano keys or guitar or other instrument? Using your ambiture to blow the trumpets, bowing the violin? None of these sound right either. I think that is why people still use “perform”. It’s the lesser of two evils.

Perhaps we could say “praying the mass through music”? It’s nice, but I wish there was just one word to describe it. What do you use?

did music ministry, or ministered the music…

or just a generic “played the mass”

 

[Sarabande]

did music ministry, or ministered the music…

or just a generic “played the mass”

I like “ministered the music”. I’ll try that one next time and see how that rolls off my tongue. Funny, I’ve called myself a music minister in the past, but I never used “ministered the mass”. haha! Thanks.

As mentioned in my other post, I’m not crazy about the word “play” or “playing”. It reminds me to much of play time or something frivolous and fun, and I think it could possibly conjure up thoughts similar to the word “perform” for a “lay person”. But that’s just me. Of course, these words don’t bother me personally, as I and people who understand do know what we’re talking about, but I do realize I sometimes need to be aware of those who are out to find something wrong with sacred music musicians.

We need to create just one word to describe what we do, rather than a group of words, though. hmmm…

 

[Phemie]

We need to create just one word to describe what we do, rather than a group of words, though. hmmm…

Would it make you feel better to know that in the online dictionary the first definition of ‘perform’ is “To begin and carry through to completion; do”? Another is “To do with expertise.” One would hope that also applies to you.

Feel free to say you performed the music. You did. A surgeon performs an operation - he doesn’t do it for an audience. You can validly say you perform the music at Mass.

 

[agapewolf]

Would it make you feel better to know that in the online dictionary the first definition of ‘perform’ is “To begin and carry through to completion; do”? Another is “To do with expertise.” One would hope that also applies to you.

Feel free to say you performed the music. You did. A surgeon performs an operation - he doesn’t do it for an audience. You can validly say you perform the music at Mass.

I go to great lengths to avoid that term because of misunderstandings. It doesn’t matter what the dictionary definition is, it matters what the commonly heald understanding is when referring to what we do.

Especially because I play contemporary music, everyone just automatically assumes we are doing it to put on a concert…but as I said, we go to great lengths to make sure that we are NOT performing in that sense of the word, and I’m tired of trying to battle that perception. We are leading prayer, ministering music, etc.

 

[Sarabande]

Would it make you feel better to know that in the online dictionary the first definition of ‘perform’ is “To begin and carry through to completion; do”? Another is “To do with expertise.” One would hope that also applies to you.

Feel free to say you performed the music. You did. A surgeon performs an operation - he doesn’t do it for an audience. You can validly say you perform the music at Mass.

Thank you, Phemie. You are absolutely right. I’ve heard the word used to describe other liturgical functions such as “performing the Rite of Baptism”, or “performing the duties of….” But at the same time, agapewolf makes a valid point. Unfortunately, with those who do not really understand the role of music within the liturgy, some will consider it as a performance such as at a concert or recital. This misconception is not just relegated to contemporary musicians, but actually to all genres of music. (I’ve even heard it used disparagingly towards chant from those who do not like chant at mass.) Classical musicians get it a lot as well – in particular musicians who have remarkable and above-average ability. It doesn’t help – whether with classical style or contemporary style – when congregations applaud at the end of the mass. I’ve found it strengthens the naysayers belief that music at mass is a “performance”, even if that is the intent of the people applauding. But that is definitely for another thread.

In all, it seems as if most church musicians have gone through the same lengths and trials in ensuring that their music isn’t considered a performance. That’s why we are sometimes a bit sensitive regarding that innocent, non-threatening word – “perform”.

I’ve decided, though, that within the circles where I know that the word will not be misconstrued, I’ll just use it. I’ve never been one who cared too much about what other people think about me as I know what’s in my heart and what God wants of me. BUT, I am also trying to preserve and protect the role of sacred music and its musicians, so when I’m in a stranger’s company I’ll just be careful in how I describe my function as a musician for mass. For me, I think that will be the best way for me to handle this.

Now, we’ve really gotten off topic and have really derailed this thread. Back on topic….

I’m cantoring a 50th wedding anniversary mass tomorrow morning. Very excited about it, since today it’s so rare to see people celebrate a married life together. I think the couple had to pay the same fee as any other newlywed couple, since it is a private mass on a Saturday morning. No bridesmaids, or anything like that - A mass with the renewal of the vows and the grandchildren going with the grandparents to do the special Presentation to the Blessed Mother.

 

[benedictgal]

Wow. I suppose we are fortunate in my area. Our churches still offer free use of their facilities for sacramental ceremonies. We paid the priest what we could afford for my son’s baptism. The church even provided the candle and the baptism stole that we got to keep. But then, our area churches don’t have a problem with a lack of tithes and offerings.

But, a wedding is a whole different affair. Do you think that the hotel is going to let you use their banquet hall and their food and beverage for free? If you can pony up the money to pay for the gown, the flowers, the band/music for the reception, the cost of consumption for the food and beverage (including the cost of champagne and other spirits), why would paying a fee for the Church be a major issue?

I have helped coordinate many, many weddings. Depending on the particular situation, the rector would waive the fee. However, if you show up with a limousine, have the Garden of Eden recreated on the altar and have a gown to rival Princess Diana’s, and still want to use the Church for free, then there is a problem.

You have to consider the cost of cleaning up the mess the wedding party leaves behind (flower petals that fall from the arrangements, boxes of coursages that are discarded in the back, wedding programs, etc). Some wedding parties are very messy. Furthermore, with the sky-rocketing cost of energy, it takes money to turn up the A/C and have the church cooled down. Often, if it’s a big church, the A/C is turned on several hours before the wedding begins.

Furthermore, if you are not using the parish musician, and you are getting married during the aniticpated Sunday Mass (late Saturday afternoon/early evening) be prepared for a bench fee.

The same process holds true for Quince Anos celebrations. These often rival weddings in expense and mess. There is a fee for families wishing to use the Church for a Quince Anos celebration. I have seen instances where the Quincenera, the 15-year-old girl, arrives in a stretch Hummer limo (in one case, she arrived in a Cinderalla-like carriage pulled by diesel truck) and had 15 attendants and escorts. You tell me if that doesn’t come cheap.