When Did Rome Go Wrong?

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wisdomseeker said:
this is not about being better. it is a matter of authority. Jesus gives authority to One Church, but you want this authority to be gone.
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Irrelevant. A Catholic can quite easily ascribe to all the Catholic Church’s claims of authority while sharing in the worship of separated brothers and sisters.

The leaders of the Catholic Church are willing to talk fine talk about truth and goodness being found outside the Catholic Church, but God forbid that anyone should act as if this were really true!

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
Irrelevant. A Catholic can quite easily ascribe to all the Catholic Church’s claims of authority while sharing in the worship of separated brothers and sisters.

The leaders of the Catholic Church are willing to talk fine talk about truth and goodness being found outside the Catholic Church, but God forbid that anyone should act as if this were really true!

Edwin
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You don’t like us very much do you Edwin?😦
 
Contarini said:
Irrelevant. A Catholic can quite easily ascribe to all the Catholic Church’s claims of authority while sharing in the worship of separated brothers and sisters.

The leaders of the Catholic Church are willing to talk fine talk about truth and goodness being found outside the Catholic Church, but God forbid that anyone should act as if this were really true!

Edwin
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what do you want, applause for keeping Truths which came from the CC?
i called that imitators of the CC, for the Truth never left the CC. you can imitate all you want. besides what Truth do you have that is not found in teh CC? none, none whatsoever. we dont need to go to you for Truth. it is all in the CC.

like GK Chesterton: “everybody takes what they like from the CC and leave what they dont like.” but the fact is the Truth still remains in the one Church no matter how much other uses those Truth.

the doctrines you have that did not come from the CC is false. Bible alone, invisible Church, no Church found by Christ. the Bible is very clear when speaking of One Faith, One Spirit, one Baptism, obey the leaders of the Church and so forth. when your leaders found another church, they have disobey the leaders of the One Church. it is clear here that you are in disobedience to God.
protestants rebaptize Catholics in disobedience to God. One Baptism and not many.
 
rinnie said:
[SIGN][/SIGN]

Okay tell me this. If the RCC is not the CC then how can the Pope have a direct link to Peter. Is the Pope’s Church not the exact same Church that was led by Peter. So then if you deny that the RCC is part of the True Catholic Church then Peter’s Church was not the CC either correct?
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Your Church is the Roman Catholic Church, it is what was called a Particular Church within the One Holy Catholic Church. It is what we call a Communion of Catholic Believers!
The Roman Catholic Church is not the whole Church by any means, even on earth,it is a segment! What you and your friends have to show is , how, or where, perhaps when, S.Peter’s Claims devolved on to the Papacy? Where is it mentioned in scripture or in the Tradition of the first 300yrs of the existence of the Body of Christ! What is it in history other than the Suburbicarian Church of Italy?
 
seamusmohr said:
Your Church is the Roman Catholic Church, it is what was called a Particular Church within the One Holy Catholic Church. It is what we call a Communion of Catholic Believers!
The Roman Catholic Church is not the whole Church by any means, even on earth,it is a segment! What you and your friends have to show is , how, or where, perhaps when, S.Peter’s Claims devolved on to the Papacy? Where is it mentioned in scripture or in the Tradition of the first 300yrs of the existence of the Body of Christ! What is it in history other than the Suburbicarian Church of Italy?
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the Church in Rome is mentioned in the Bible. do you see anglican church being mentioned in the Bible?
 
Grace & Peace!

Rinnie, this where I trip up on your argument. For me, it comes down to Christian eschatology which suggests that we are joined to God in the beatific vision, but that we are not annihilated in that mystical union. We become one with God, but we remain to love and to be loved. We share in God’s life, but we do not dissolve into it. Heaven is not Nirvana, in other words–we are not extinguished in the beatific vision, but we are united to, with, by, and through God. It is not a unity of being that we experience, otherwise, we would cease to be. It is a mystical union which deepens throughout time and eternity as we grow in the love of God by the grace of the Spirit. Christian eschatology is concerned with the ongoing reality of sanctification, of becoming more deeply, by grace, what God knows us to be.

This reality of sanctification speaks to the reality of what the Spirit does in the Church.

The Church is the Body of Christ–collectively, all Christians comprise this Body. We are part of this body when we are in sin, and we are part of this body when we are sinless, by God’s grace. This is because the Church is the New and Re-Newed Creation of God, but on this side of the veil, it is not in a state of being but in a state of becoming. We therefore participate (sinner and saint) in the Body of Christ by the grace of the Holy Spirit who is sanctifying us to be what God knows us to be. Again, this is a process of becoming, and it is this becoming that allows for the One Body, for Christ to be the Head, and for the rest of us, Saint and Sinner alike, to be the Body.

If the Church is not the coming-into-being of Christ in the world through us–that is, if it is not a present reality into which we can actually live by grace, then it is merely an ideal state that can only exist as an idea and not a lived reality.

A recent discussion of infallibility I read is somewhat germaine here. We teach by both word and deed–by articulating an idea, and by showing how that idea is to be lived. If our theological teaching authority is based on an idea of “do as I say, not as I do” then we gradually come to the conclusion that theology is not something to be done, but something to be believed or thought about only. Which will eventually lead us to this conclusion: that theology cannot be lived, and can only be talked about. What is true, therefore, becomes a matter of identifying particular concepts worthy of belief, but impossible to live. Which is to say, “what we teach is true, but it may not be *real, *that is, you will not actually be able to live it.” Which, ultimately, cannot be the case, because what is true must be what is real, otherwise, it cannot be true.

To say that it is impossible for the Church to have done the horrible things it has done in the past is also to say that it is ultimately impossible for people to be sanctified and to experience and participate in the reality of the Church–because it is to say that sinful people cannot participate in the sanctifying work of the Spirit that is happening in the Church. It is deny that both the Church Militant and the Church in Purgatory are actually part of the One Body of Christ. Only the Church Triumphant can be the Church. And even then, only Christ in the Church Triumphant is actually the Church. The theology of the Body of Christ avoids creating this impassable gulf between Christ and his followers by defining their relationship as organic, not merely forensic or conceptual. And the Eucharist underscores this reality–if we are not the Church, if we are not the Body, how can we say, “We who are many are One Body because we all share One Bread, One Cup.”

Christ promises to dwell in us and states that we will dwell in him as the Father dwells in him and he in the Father. This is what is called perichoresis, the indwelling of the Persons of the Trinity in each other and the indwelling of God in us and we in God by the grace of the Spirit. This is the summit of our hope in Christ. It is a reality into which we are living because God is gracious. It is what we are becoming. It is the Spirit at work in the Church.

Hopefully some of that made sense…

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
seamusmohr said:
Your Church is the Roman Catholic Church, it is what was called a Particular Church within the One Holy Catholic Church. It is what we call a Communion of Catholic Believers!
The Roman Catholic Church is not the whole Church by any means, even on earth,it is a segment! What you and your friends have to show is , how, or where, perhaps when, S.Peter’s Claims devolved on to the Papacy? Where is it mentioned in scripture or in the Tradition of the first 300yrs of the existence of the Body of Christ! What is it in history other than the Suburbicarian Church of Italy?
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Letter to the Romans is to who? Roman Christians,which could have included Jews and gentiles. Roman is a rite,not a separate entity from the early church. The church developed and the fact you do not read Roman Catholic in the Bible does not negate its place in Scripture or Tradition.Excuse me? Where is the Roman Catholic Church mentioned in Tradition the first 300 years? Are you kidding?
 
rinnie said:
You don’t like us very much do you Edwin?😦
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Depends who the “us” are. I admit to being annoyed by triumphalist Catholics, but hey, I even like you, else I wouldn’t keep coming back here. You annoy the heck out of me, but that doesn’t mean I don’t like you:p

And I like Catholics in general very much indeed. I am frustrated by the gap between the ideal of Catholicism (which I find very appealing) and the way it works out in practice. But the worst I would say of you is that you are nearly as messed up as we Anglicans are!😃

Edwin
 
wisdomseeker said:
what do you want, applause for keeping Truths which came from the CC?
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Bear in mind that by definition, those of us who do not belong to the Roman Communion do not think that your Communion simply is the Catholic Church.
i called that imitators of the CC, for the Truth never left the CC. you can imitate all you want. besides what Truth do you have that is not found in teh CC?
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There’s no arguing with this kind of triumphalism, because of course you start with the premise that anything not found within your Communion is bad. However, many of your fellow Catholics recognize that they have much to learn from other Christians, and even from non-Christians.

You could certainly learn something about liturgy from us. But of course you can make a distinction between liturgy and “Truth”–which just shows how inadequate your conception of truth is.
the doctrines you have that did not come from the CC is false. Bible alone
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Just what reason do you have to think that I, or Anglicans in general, believe in “Bible alone”? The 39 Articles endorse material sufficiency, which is a view held by some Catholics, but not all Anglicans subscribe to the Articles. We certainly do not hold to the formal sufficiency of Scripture.
invisible Church
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The discussion on this thread has demonstrated that you guys are the ones who believe in an invisible Church. I’m the one insisting that whatever the members of the Church do corporately is done by the Church. You are the ones saying that “the Church” is this ineffable reality that only acts on those rare occasions when leaders of the Church get it exactly right.
protestants rebaptize Catholics in disobedience to God.
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Anglicans do not rebaptize Catholics, or any other orthodox Trinitarian Christians.

I am no more concerned with what other Protestants do than I am with what you or the Orthodox do. Indeed less so. You are all my brothers and sisters in Christ, but the unquestionably apostolic churches are the ecumenical partners to whom I and many other Anglicans look first and foremost.

Edwin
 
wisdomseeker said:
… it is a matter of authority. Jesus gives authority to One Church,… himself in authority, God didnt. … . see, if henry the VIII have authority to go out of the CC and be the head of the Church. he made himself the head of the church in england. this is not what God has done. if the someone doesnt listen to the CC, he is no longer part of the Church.
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You are right about one thing,“it is a matter of authority”. But the authority Jesus gave was to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Holy Roman Church isn’t it. Part of it ?" Maybe! What has Henry the 8th got to do with it by the way? A villein and a rogue? Again maybe, but he didn’t leave the Catholic Church.
You complain that he made himself the Head of the Church? Only as far as the Law of God allows! Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church is above the law of the Country? I bet the people around Boston,and the Canadian people who are suing the Church don’t think so!
Anyhow wasn’t the pope both Head of Church and state as well up till 1870? Is it a law for one but not others?
Authority in the Church was given by Christ to the College of Apostles! by the Apostolic fathers it was passed to the Holy fathers who worked under the guidance of the Holy Ghost in the Seven Ecumenical Councils. This is what is known as the Apostolic Succession, it is The Catholic Faith as well as Orders. We’re keeping the Deposit!
Are you?
.
 
seamusmohr said:
Your Church is the Roman Catholic Church, it is what was called a Particular Church within the One Holy Catholic Church. It is what we call a Communion of Catholic Believers!
The Roman Catholic Church is not the whole Church by any means, even on earth,it is a segment! What you and your friends have to show is , how, or where, perhaps when, S.Peter’s Claims devolved on to the Papacy? Where is it mentioned in scripture or in the Tradition of the first 300yrs of the existence of the Body of Christ! What is it in history other than the Suburbicarian Church of Italy?
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You missed my point, I said that my Church is the Church that was started by Jesus because you can trace it back to the Pope. That is proof that it is indeed the Catholic Church.

I would never neglect the Byzantine, Chaldean, Maronite or other Oriental Rites, We are all indeed part of the Original Catholic Church.

But it seems when I say that my Church is indeed part of the Church Started by Jesus I cannot get my point across, I am told I am not the ONLY Catholic Church. I never claimed that the Church in Rome was. Only that is is as much of the Catholic Church today as it was the day it was started by Jesus.

Now when you claim that the RCC is not the whole Church I must disagree with you. It has the fullness of the truth so it is the whole Church. But because I am of the Latin Rite does not mean that my Church has more truth then the Byz. Oriental rites etc. We are all the Whole Church but in different rites.

Just because there are different Rites does not mean there are different Church’s. THere is ONLY ONE CHURCH.

There is only ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH:shrug:
 
seamusmohr said:
You are right about one thing,“it is a matter of authority”. But the authority Jesus gave was to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Holy Roman Church isn’t it. Part of it ?" Maybe! What has Henry the 8th got to do with it by the way? A villein and a rogue? Again maybe, but he didn’t leave the Catholic Church.
You complain that he made himself the Head of the Church? Only as far as the Law of God allows! Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church is above the law of the Country? I bet the people around Boston,and the Canadian people who are suing the Church don’t think so!
Anyhow wasn’t the pope both Head of Church and state as well up till 1870? Is it a law for one but not others?
Authority in the Church was given by Christ to the College of Apostles! by the Apostolic fathers it was passed to the Holy fathers who worked under the guidance of the Holy Ghost in the Seven Ecumenical Councils. This is what is known as the Apostolic Succession, it is The Catholic Faith as well as Orders. We’re keeping the Deposit!
Are you?
.
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You tell me, What part of the Deposit of faith do you feel we are not in line with?
 
seamusmohr said:
You are right about one thing,“it is a matter of authority”. But the authority Jesus gave was to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Holy Roman Church isn’t it. Part of it ?" Maybe! What has Henry the 8th got to do with it by the way? A villein and a rogue? Again maybe, but he didn’t leave the Catholic Church.
You complain that he made himself the Head of the Church? Only as far as the Law of God allows! Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church is above the law of the Country? I bet the people around Boston,and the Canadian people who are suing the Church don’t think so!
Anyhow wasn’t the pope both Head of Church and state as well up till 1870? Is it a law for one but not others?
Authority in the Church was given by Christ to the College of Apostles! by the Apostolic fathers it was passed to the Holy fathers who worked under the guidance of the Holy Ghost in the Seven Ecumenical Councils. This is what is known as the Apostolic Succession, it is The Catholic Faith as well as Orders. We’re keeping the Deposit!
Are you?
.
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like i said those who leave the Church and build churches for themselves are not apostolic churches and have no authority to do so.
 
seamusmohr said:
You are right about one thing,“it is a matter of authority”. But the authority Jesus gave was to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Holy Roman Church isn’t it. Part of it ?" Maybe! What has Henry the 8th got to do with it by the way? A villein and a rogue? Again maybe, but he didn’t leave the Catholic Church.
You complain that he made himself the Head of the Church? Only as far as the Law of God allows! Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church is above the law of the Country? I bet the people around Boston,and the Canadian people who are suing the Church don’t think so!
Anyhow wasn’t the pope both Head of Church and state as well up till 1870? Is it a law for one but not others?
Authority in the Church was given by Christ to the College of Apostles! by the Apostolic fathers it was passed to the Holy fathers who worked under the guidance of the Holy Ghost in the Seven Ecumenical Councils. This is what is known as the Apostolic Succession, it is The Catholic Faith as well as Orders. We’re keeping the Deposit!
Are you?
.
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protestantism is a heresy. get with the program.

youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV#p/a/u/0/d11PpFwI8RY
 
seamusmohr said:
You are right about one thing,“it is a matter of authority”. But the authority Jesus gave was to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Holy Roman Church isn’t it. Part of it ?" Maybe! What has Henry the 8th got to do with it by the way? A villein and a rogue? Again maybe, but he didn’t leave the Catholic Church.
You complain that he made himself the Head of the Church? Only as far as the Law of God allows! Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church is above the law of the Country? I bet the people around Boston,and the Canadian people who are suing the Church don’t think so!
Anyhow wasn’t the pope both Head of Church and state as well up till 1870? Is it a law for one but not others?
Authority in the Church was given by Christ to the College of Apostles! by the Apostolic fathers it was passed to the Holy fathers who worked under the guidance of the Holy Ghost in the Seven Ecumenical Councils. This is what is known as the Apostolic Succession, it is The Catholic Faith as well as Orders. We’re keeping the Deposit!
Are you?
.
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No, not only as far as the Law of God allows. *Quantum per Christi legem licet etiam *wasn’t Henry idea, it was caused by Convocation refusal of Henry’s orginally suggested words, and was the third attempt at Canterbury to achieve a wording that would satisfy both Convocation and Henry. Which had nothing to do with the Parliamentary Act that actually established Henry as legally Supreme Head, years later, where the words do not occur, in any form. The submission by the Convocations only related to the charges of Praemunire Henry brought against the Church, to bring about submission, and garner a couple of hundred thousands pounds for the Throne . We’ve done all this before. Under several names.

(corrected my wording here)

GKC
 
rinnie said:
:D:D

Oh Richard you are talking to me again. Usually you ignore me. When I ask you a hard question you never answer me. But I will do the Christian thing and turn the Other Cheek.😉

Yep I do and here is the scripture, which I have shown you at least a thousand times now. But since its one of my favorite I will show you again.

Acts 9:4 Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME? Who are you sir? The reply came JESUS the one you are persecuting.

Now you tell me Richard who was Saul persecuting the CC wasn’t he. Who did Jesus say the Catholic Church is Richard? He said ME JESUS did he not.

Now do I believe the CC is Jesus yes I do. Why? As the song says because the bible tells me so:p
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In Matt.25

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

rinnie do you worship the least of the brethren also?

Let me ask you rinnie do you believe the ten commandments are still valid? For instance.

Ex.20
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Or do you think that these laws were done away with (fulfilled?) in Christ. and now it’s OK to worship false gods like a church.
 
Richard_Kastner said:
In Matt.25

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

rinnie do you worship the least of the brethren also?

Let me ask you rinnie do you believe the ten commandments are still valid? For instance.

Ex.20
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Or do you think that these laws were done away with (fulfilled?) in Christ. and now it’s OK to worship false gods like a church.
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are you separating these passages from teh Church? how do you do that? or do you think that Jesus said this in hopes that someone out there one day would pick up the Book and read it?

first the disciples went out and spoke about Christ, then they would come into the Church to be tought by the Church. tell me how important is the Church to you spoken of by the Apostles in teh Bible?
 
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