When did the Eastern Orthodox Church officially condemn indulgences? and related questions

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It solemnly proclaimed the truth of indulgences in the Council of Constantinople in 1727 received by all four patriarchates (it only condemns the idea that only the Roman Pope can grant them) and then again in 1838 (there, condemning their use for enrichment, but still calling them “most holy, most sacred, and most awesome.”)

pravoslavie.ru/enarticles/041125153738

My question is, was there a formal repudiation of these decrees, or did they just become ignored over time?
 
Some additional questions that flow from this one: If they were simply not received, why were the people who chose not to receive them treated differently than people who chose not to receive the decrees of, say, the Council of Chalcedon or other Councils the Orthodox Church still holds up as authoritative? Likewise, as the above Councils seemed to have lost their authority over time, can the other Councils also lose theirs over time?
 
That is a good question, I made a similar thread a while back on the EO Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

At that Council they accepted teachings like Transubstantiation and Purgatory, yet today when I see EO talk about these things they act as if they are Latin inventions.
 
Some additional questions that flow from this one: If they were simply not received, why were the people who chose not to receive them treated differently than people who chose not to receive the decrees of, say, the Council of Chalcedon
Chalcedon is Ecumenical.
or other Councils the Orthodox Church still holds up as authoritative?
Although the 4 patriarchs may have signed their names, what of the rest of the Orthodox?
Likewise, as the above Councils seemed to have lost their authority over time, can the other Councils also lose theirs over time?
Not an Ecumenical one.

And it is doubtful a Pan-Orthodox one would.

A local council is just that, local, and attract more authority (several were ratified later at the Ecumenical Councils) or fall into dessitude.
 
That is a good question, I made a similar thread a while back on the EO Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

At that Council they accepted teachings like Transubstantiation and Purgatory, yet today when I see EO talk about these things they act as if they are Latin inventions.
They were. We just tooks sides between you and your Protestant brethren/children, and at Jerusalem we more or less sided with you.
 
They were [inventions]. We just tooks sides between you and your Protestant brethren/children, and at Jerusalem we more or less sided with you.
How can the Truth ever side with Error?..unless you are the Catholic Church, Truth can never side with error.
 
Some additional questions that flow from this one: If they were simply not received, why were the people who chose not to receive them treated differently than people who chose not to receive the decrees of, say, the Council of Chalcedon or other Councils the Orthodox Church still holds up as authoritative? Likewise, as the above Councils seemed to have lost their authority over time, can the other Councils also lose theirs over time?
I don’t know the history of every local council over time, so I cannot answer some of your basic query. The practice was not universal in Orthodoxy, and it did not spread beyond the Greeks of certain regions.

The connection to western practices is pretty clear. The Latin church practices were emulated by some in that period. The Turks being dominant in the Middle East, some priests were going abroad to Rome and elsewhere in the West for higher studies (that never really ceased, Patriarch Bartholomew and Metropolitan Zizoulis have studied in Roman Catholic universities). One result of the practice of sending seminarians abroad in those generations was a movement in the Melkite (Antiochian) Orthodox church for reconciliation with Rome. Of course there was a reaction and it split that church wide open.

It must be emphasized that these are not indulgences of the type given in Latin church, and probably indulgence is a poor term for it. In fact, I don’t believe the Latin church ever did this. The reason is the Orthodox do not make the customery Latin distinction between absolution of sins and a residual temporal punishment. Latin indulgences remit the temporal punishment, which is not a major concern of Orthodox.

When absolution is received from an Orthodox priest in confession, that’s it, one is forgiven without conditions. So what these people were actually doing was taking financial contributions for the forgiveness of sins. In my opinion it is as bad or worse than the sale of indulgences in the west, in other words a serious abuse.

What these ‘sales of absolution’ amounted to was a replacement for confession.

Part of the reason the practice arose when it did was the discrimination and oppression Christians experienced in those times. It was an era when being caught by a gang on the street after leaving a church could result in beatings and death. There was tyranny on the streets, and a police state which looked the other way when Christians were the victims but came down hard when Christians were the suspects.

I know that the Greek churches no longer do this, but I don’t know when the practices finally ceased, or if there were synodal decrees or the bishops on their own discontinued the practice. It is quite possible the practice was abandoned without a new formal council acting on it. Any bishop who thinks about it the way I do would never allow it, and would order the practice to stop in his diocese.

This isn’t something to be swept under a rug, it’s part of our history. Orthodox have reflected on it, and dealt with this matter, our theologians are opposed to it as are our bishops. We do not wish to see anything like that return to us through the side windows or the back door.

Michael
 
That is a good question, I made a similar thread a while back on the EO Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

At that Council they accepted teachings like Transubstantiation and Purgatory, yet today when I see EO talk about these things they act as if they are Latin inventions.
Neither of those terms make any sense in Orthodox theology, but if the protestants are going to ask me which is more likely correct, I will say the Roman Catholic.

Whenever a Protestant becomes a Roman Catholic I am more or less satisfied. It’s definitely a move in the right direction for a western Christian. I have stated something like that numerous times in these forums.

There was a period in the church history of the Orthodox when Latin theological ideas and expressions were becoming better accepted. The Protestant reformation was starting to scare people and when the protestant arguments were being posed to the Orthodox, we didn’t have the terminology (still don’t) to address them properly. These are essentially western arguments and are difficult to translate into eastern theological terms.

So the Orthodox refuted protestant arguments by endorsing Latin ideas.

The truth is, those Latin ideas are really terrible, I am not surprised protestants have a problem with them. They are not correct to pose their own new theology to replace the Latin ones though. What both sides should ideally do is drop them for Orthodox theology, then everything will be all right 😃

Michael
 
It must be emphasized that these are not indulgences of the type given in Latin church, and probably indulgence is a poor term for it. In fact, I don’t believe the Latin church ever did this. The reason is the Orthodox do not make the customery Latin distinction between absolution of sins and a residual temporal punishment.
Here is what the Council of Jerusalem 1672 which I linked to above says:
And such as though envolved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance — by pouring forth tears, forsooth, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine {in summation ELC} by shewing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbour, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfactionof these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers <152> of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offereth particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offereth daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release. For that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment we know and believe; but when we know not.
As I said in my link, this is Catholic, and in fact I see strong evidence that the EO had the decrees of Trent on the table when they wrote this.
Latin indulgences remit the temporal punishment, which is not a major concern of Orthodox.
Is it not a major concern or not a true teaching/concept? There is a big difference.
Neither of those terms make any sense in Orthodox theology, but if the protestants are going to ask me which is more likely correct, I will say the Roman Catholic.
How can it “not make sense” yet you subscribe to it none the less? A council was drawn up and what it stated as its beliefs were things like Transubstantiation, even using the term!
Whenever a Protestant becomes a Roman Catholic I am more or less satisfied. It’s definitely a move in the right direction for a western Christian. I have stated something like that numerous times in these forums.
I whole heartedly believe that when a Protestant enters Eastern Orthodox they have moved significantly in the right direction.
There was a period in the church history of the Orthodox when Latin theological ideas and expressions were becoming better accepted. The Protestant reformation was starting to scare people and when the protestant arguments were being posed to the Orthodox, we didn’t have the terminology (still don’t) to address them properly. These are essentially western arguments and are difficult to translate into eastern theological terms.

** So the Orthodox refuted protestant arguments by endorsing Latin ideas.**
And in endorsing them logically means they are free from significant error. That is why my head spins when so many EO around here brush off concepts like Transubstantiaion, purgatory, etc as horrible and even heretical Latin inventions.
The truth is, those Latin ideas are really terrible, I am not surprised protestants have a problem with them. They are not correct to pose their own new theology to replace the Latin ones though. What both sides should ideally do is drop them for Orthodox theology, then everything will be all right 😃

Michael
The fact is Protestant thought/terminology was not part of traditional Catholic thought either, central Protestant concepts like Justification by Imputed Righteousness stem from both invented and resurrected heretical concepts. **
 
Here is what the Council of Jerusalem 1672 which I linked to above says:

[/INDENT]As I said in my link, this is Catholic, and in fact I see strong evidence that the EO had the decrees of Trent on the table when they wrote this.

Is it not a major concern or not a true teaching/concept? There is a big difference.

How can it “not make sense” yet you subscribe to it none the less? A council was drawn up and what it stated as its beliefs were things like Transubstantiation, even using the term!

I whole heartedly believe that when a Protestant enters Eastern Orthodox they have moved significantly in the right direction.

And in endorsing them logically means they are free from significant error. That is why my head spins when so many EO around here brush off concepts like Transubstantiaion, purgatory, etc as horrible and even heretical Latin inventions.
You may have hit on why Jerusalem was never seen as ecumenical, just Pan-Orthodox.
 
:eek:

** Error is error and must be condemned**, not swept under the rug. If Jerusalem was preaching error then I expect some authoritative condemnations from high level Orthodox Bishop.
Don’t get your knickers all twisted up.
 
:eek:

Error is error and must be condemned, not swept under the rug. If Jerusalem was preaching error then I expect some authoritative condemnations from high level Orthodox Bishop.
Like Rome’s recent statements on Limbo?

In the given context, i.e. against Calvinism, Jerusalem makes sense. Remember, the Confession of Dositheus (the core of what you are referring to) was responding to a specific document. He was not talking in the abstract.

You are trying to impute Ecumenical authority on Jerusalem which it never had. The Church recognizes its usefullness, but does not consider its definition on a par with the Ecumenical Councils.
 
Limbo was never doctrine, just theological speculation. It was a “hey what if…” statment, that was all. This Pope and really the last several, have been kinda iffy on this idea, and so finally P B16 said that enough, we’ve speculated long enough, and limbo is just silly. In more or less words…

How do EO not have the theological terminology to defeat protestantisms arguements. All of their beliefs are just stolen from various 1st millinia hereseys some of which existed largely in the East, and took eastern bishops with the help of the west to defeat, and some the other way around. You’ve dealt with it all before.

Also you say that you had to choose between the lesser of two evils theologically… how does that make sense. You orthodox feel that you can bend God’s divine truth as he has revealed it just to deal with Heretics, what happened to dusting off your sandels if they refused to hear the truth. I dont believe for a second those bishops on that Council thought they were just choosing the lesser of two evils, I think they really believed it. Now it wasnt eccumenical… or even pan-orthodox. Fine, but it was the rulling of ecclesial law for the areas those bishops ruled. It may no longer be that way, but If those bishops signed it then it was in effect for those areas.

Just on a side note. Why dont you believe in transubstantiation? I’ve heard several reasons but none of them ever have dealt with the issue. If you could just give me like a paragraph, I dont want to get this thread off track.
 
Limbo was never doctrine, just theological speculation. It was a “hey what if…” statment, that was all. This Pope and really the last several, have been kinda iffy on this idea, and so finally P B16 said that enough, we’ve speculated long enough, and limbo is just silly. In more or less words…

How do EO not have the theological terminology to defeat protestantisms arguements.
Because they are not from our midst.
All of their beliefs are just stolen from various 1st millinia hereseys some of which existed largely in the East, and took eastern bishops with the help of the west to defeat, and some the other way around. You’ve dealt with it all before.
Ah, but the repackaging is different.

For us, they were outside the Church for simply embracing the filioque (which they defend for whatever reason). More speculation for us is not needed.
Also you say that you had to choose between the lesser of two evils theologically… how does that make sense. You orthodox feel that you can bend God’s divine truth as he has revealed it just to deal with Heretics, what happened to dusting off your sandels if they refused to hear the truth.
They were kicking in our door.
I dont believe for a second those bishops on that Council thought they were just choosing the lesser of two evils, I think they really believed it. Now it wasnt eccumenical… or even pan-orthodox. Fine, but it was the rulling of ecclesial law for the areas those bishops ruled. It may no longer be that way, but If those bishops signed it then it was in effect for those areas.
The threat it dealt with has passed, or at least transmutted.
Just on a side note. Why dont you believe in transubstantiation? I’ve heard several reasons but none of them ever have dealt with the issue. If you could just give me like a paragraph, I dont want to get this thread off track.
There is no reason to speculate how, and explain the Mystery. Just accept it.
 
Like Rome’s recent statements on Limbo?
Limbo was never a doctrine, and the “recent statements” didnt define anything either.
In the given context, i.e. against Calvinism, Jerusalem makes sense. Remember, the Confession of Dositheus (the core of what you are referring to) was responding to a specific document. He was not talking in the abstract.
That is irrelevant, the “truth” that was proclaimed in response to those errors must still be orthodox.
You are trying to impute Ecumenical authority on Jerusalem which it never had. The Church recognizes its usefullness, but does not consider its definition on a par with the Ecumenical Councils.
That is not the point either, if what Jerusalem taught was heretical then I as someone searching for the Truth would expect a clear condemnation of it.

This isnt rocket science. It cant be “true” when you are talking with Calvinists and “false” when you are talking with Catholics.
 
Chalcedon is Ecumenical.

Although the 4 patriarchs may have signed their names, what of the rest of the Orthodox?

A local council is just that, local, and attract more authority (several were ratified later at the Ecumenical Councils) or fall into dessitude.
That brings us to an interesting question Isa! How are we to know “what of the rest of the Orthodox?”

Seems like that entails no small amount of certitude in understanding where all the various churches that make up the autocephalous polyarchy of the Orthodox communion stand…

And when you and TR Valentine disagree as to wether certain local councils were actually (as stated in some documents) the 8th & 9th Ecumenical Councils of Orthodoxy, how are we to weigh the claims and decide which of you two (if either!) are correct?
 
This does then bring up the question of what makes a council ecumenical. To my understanding, it is that it binds the whole Church. But how does it do this? The Council of 1727 seemed to attempt to bind the whole Church, but, as Orthodox posters have said, it is not binding. Is it because a majority of the Church chose not to receive it? Yet, at the 7 many, many bishops were not present and huge portions of people chose not to accept, even a majority were Arian after Nicea I. So who judges whether or not a Council can bind? Does each individual Orthodox person get to personally judge a Council? Do bishops have any binding authority to decide matters of faith?
 
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