When Did the "Mormon Jesus" Become Divine?

[stillsearching]

PaulDupre:

Joseph Smith himself said:
“I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”
History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167

Therefore, Joseph Smith was as aware of Islam as he was the Masons. And we can definately assume he had contact with christian churches before he began divining for treasure. Must be why his church is such a mish mash of religions and judicial rulings. A very worldly church and quite temporal.

 

[Maccabees]

PaulDupre:

Joseph Smith himself said:
“I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”
History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167

Hey nice tape set (on Mormonism) by the way!

 

[Manasseh]

When God speaks , the Holy Spirit is the one to bring to pass. He’s the Doer of things in your life, it will have to be with the Holy Spirit in your life today. Even the Lord Jesus Christ had to have the holy Spirit. It was only after the Holy Spirit came unto his life that his ministry and miraculous began. Remember that when He was on the earth, even though He was the son of god, He didn’t operate or minister as son of God. He operated and ministered as son of man (Timothy 2:5), (Mathew 12:8). The said He laid down his glory and become man like everyone of us; and because He found himself being fashioned as a man, He humbled himself and became obedient even unto the death on the cross (Phillippians 2:5-8). When Jesus walked the earth, He was hungry like everyone else; He was thirsty like everyone else. He got tired and He slept like everyone else. he could be tempted like everyone else, but He never fell into any temptation (Heb. 4:15). This was why he needed the to have the Holy Spirit, because He didn’t minister on the earth as son of God even though He was son of God.
Robert in SD:

I’ve read several threads discussing Mormon beliefs about the divinity of Jesus, and the consensus appears to be that Mormon doctrine holds Jesus to be divine, although completely separate and distinct from the Holy Spirit and God the Father (or God the Heavenly Father as Mormons prefer).

But some comments from posters to the site suggest Jesus was human just like us, or that he became God (or a god) at some point aftter he took on human form and is now divine.

I’m seeking clarification on the Mormon point-of-view. So, I’m calling to Mormons and to anyone who has studied the Mormon faith out there on the site, can you tell me your doctrinal understanding of the origins of Jesus’ Divinity? What do Mormons believe? Was he always a god? Was he always our God? Was he ever just human? Did he progress to divinity from humanity? Your responses are sincerely appreciated.

 

[amgid]

Robert in SD:

I’ve read several threads discussing Mormon beliefs about the divinity of Jesus, and the consensus appears to be that Mormon doctrine holds Jesus to be divine, although completely separate and distinct from the Holy Spirit and God the Father (or God the Heavenly Father as Mormons prefer).

But some comments from posters to the site suggest Jesus was human just like us, or that he became God (or a god) at some point aftter he took on human form and is now divine.

I’m seeking clarification on the Mormon point-of-view. So, I’m calling to Mormons and to anyone who has studied the Mormon faith out there on the site, can you tell me your doctrinal understanding of the origins of Jesus’ Divinity? What do Mormons believe? Was he always a god? Was he always our God? Was he ever just human? Did he progress to divinity from humanity? Your responses are sincerely appreciated.

LDS scripture teaches that Jesus was and is fully divine, and has been so from eternity. You can start by taking a look at the refernces given in this link:

scriptures.lds.org/tgg/gdthfthr

If I get time I can find you relevant passages to quote you if you like.

amgid

 

[majick275]

amgid:

LDS scripture teaches that Jesus was and is fully divine, and has been so from eternity. You can start by taking a look at the refernces given in this link:

scriptures.lds.org/tgg/gdthfthr

If I get time I can find you relevant passages to quote you if you like.

amgid

I reread these passages.(I had read them before many times) and don’t see them demonstrating that Jesus was always divine.

LDS doctrine appears to teach that would be impossible as his Father was not always divine but was once a mortal man like we are who obeyed his heavenly father and through his savior overcame his tempter and was exalted. Only then was Jesus begotten and thus able to become divine.

 

[majick275]

Just to avoid confusion… I state my own belief in the Catholic teaching that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have always been the one and only God anywhere, ever.

 

[amgid]

majick275:

I reread these passages.(I had read them before many times) and don’t see them demonstrating that Jesus was always divine.

OK, you asked for it! Here is a small list (the original list I had prepared was much longer, but it came to more than 5000 characters, and this forum is restricted to posts no longer that 5000 characters):

Book of Mormon, Title Page:

… And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations…

2 Nephi 11:

7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

2 Nephi 26:

12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

Mosiah 3:

5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases…

Mosiah 5:

15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Mosiah 7:

27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth –

Mosiah 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that **God himself ** shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son –

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son –

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Alma 34:

14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

D&C 19:

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

LDS doctrine appears to teach that … his Father was not always divine but was once a mortal man like we are who obeyed his heavenly father and through his savior overcame his tempter and was exalted. Only then was Jesus begotten and thus able to become divine.

No, that is not true LDS doctrine. It is not found in LDS scripture (the standard works), and therefore remains in the realm of speculation. True LDS doctrine is that which is, or can be confirmed in LDS scripture. Some LDS in the past, including Joseph Smith, have speculated along those lines; but their teachings are not canonized as scripture, and cannot be regarded as LDS doctrine.

amgid

 

[majick275]

I’m not sure if you are using your scriptures to contradict your doctrine or to contradict your prophets or your own belief in eternal progression. They seem to contradict themselves. The BoM seems to teach a different doctrine regarding the nature of God and the exaltation of man than what seems to be taught in the D&C. If you are claiming that the teachings of your prophets (unless canonized in scripture) can not be relied upon to establish, define or explain doctrine then I would submit that the LDS church has a significant problem…

Forgive my inadequate “mental gymnastics” but help me understand how God can have always been God (only one ever) and eternal progression be true? I would hardly call section 131 and 132 of your D&C “speculation”. In fact they shed a whole new light on just what is meant in LDS doctrine by “eternal god” as it indicates that mortals on this earth can become “gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting” . That indicates to me a somewhat different definition of Eternal when used with God.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Jesus Christ has been eternally divine, no question about it. Casen answered you very specifically and so did Amgid, but you still insist on putting your own spin on our beliefs.
I wonder why it is so important to you to prove us wrong. Will it make your own religion any more correct if you can prove us wrong? Are you trying out of concern for our souls? If so that is an honorable reason, but honestly I would not be LDS if I did not believe with all my heart and know without a shadow of doubt that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith is a true Prophet and Gordon B. Hinckley is a true prophet of God.
I had an awesome experience this month, a Greek Orthodox priest attended our Sacrament meeting August 7th, with all his priestly robes and cross hanging down the front of his robes. He strode up to the pulpit and bore his testimony, that he has been studying the Book of Mormon and the LDS church for years and his Daughter, Son-in Law and grandson have all recently joined the LDS Church. He testified that he knows it is true and that it has been very difficult for him to turn his back on his livlihood for the past 35 years of his life, but that he has made the decision to leave his faith and that the next time we see him he will be one of us. It was really thrilling to see and hear him testify that he knows Gordon B. Hinckley at 95 years old is a true prophet of God on the earth at this present time. He also said he had spoken to a retired priest in Egypt a couple of months ago who had shown him a Book of Mormon(very worn and old) He looked at it and replied to him"you know you are not allowed to teach out of this book" The priest said “yes, I know, but I believe it is true”
These are the kinds of experiences that make me know for sure that the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” is true and that Jesus Christ is my Divine Saviour and Redeemer and has been and will be for eternity.
My Catholic husband attended this particular meeting and he
was blown away. When we got to he Catholic parking lot right after, he said, he felt he did not want to attend mass that week.
It is interesting that someone so educated, that speaks all over the world for the Greek Orthodox Church could believe the so-called lies of the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church. I wonder why, do you all know why? Explain away what happened.
BJ

 

[PaulDupre]

There are nutty people everywhere. It means nothing. There are also Christians who have converted to Islam and bear witness to the Koran. So what? Truth is not determined by faith-promoting anecdotes.

God love you,
Paul

 

[Tmaque]

amgid:

OK, you asked for it! Here is a small list (the original list I had prepared was much longer, but it came to more than 5000 characters, and this forum is restricted to posts no longer that 5000 characters):

Book of Mormon, Title Page:

… And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations…

2 Nephi 11:

7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

2 Nephi 26:

12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

Mosiah 3:

5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases…

Mosiah 5:

15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Mosiah 7:

27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth –

Mosiah 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that **God himself ** shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son –

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son –

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Alma 34:

14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

D&C 19:

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

No, that is not true LDS doctrine. It is not found in LDS scripture (the standard works), and therefore remains in the realm of speculation. True LDS doctrine is that which is, or can be confirmed in LDS scripture. Some LDS in the past, including Joseph Smith, have speculated along those lines; but their teachings are not canonized as scripture, and cannot be regarded as LDS doctrine.

amgid

It would appear from your posts from the BOM that you believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are the very same person. Are you now going to tell us they are not? If so, please show us in LDS scriptures where and how it makes such a distinction.

 

[amgid]

majick275:

QUOTE]I’m not sure if you are using your scriptures to contradict your doctrine or to contradict your prophets or your own belief in eternal progression. They seem to contradict themselves. The BoM seems to teach a different doctrine regarding the nature of God and the exaltation of man than what seems to be taught in the D&C. If you are claiming that the teachings of your prophets (unless canonized in scripture) can not be relied upon to establish, define or explain doctrine then I would submit that the LDS church has a significant problem.

I wouldn’t say that, no. I am saying that the basic theology of the LDS Church is that which is defined by LDS scripture—the standard works. The prophets and Apostles can say what they like, and their teachings are generally correct and reliable. But if their teachings, or anybody else’s for that matter, contradicts or cannot be confirmed by LDS scripture, then it is speculation, and cannot be accepted as LDS doctrine. That can occasionally happen, and it has happened in the past. This is what our leaders and prophets and Apostles have taught us. I quote:

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine. You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation)

“If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false and you are not bound to accept it as truth.” (Harold B. Lee, European Area Conference of the Church, Munich, Germany, 1973)

“If it is not in the standard work, we may well assume that it is speculation, man’s own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scripture, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth.” (Harold B. Lee, 11th President, Improvement Era, January 1969 p.13)

LDS scripture also confirms this doctrine:

D&C 33:16: “And the Book of Mormon and the holy scriptures are given of me for your instruction; and the power of my Spirit quickeneth all things.”

D&C 42:12: “And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.”

D&C 42:59: “Thou shalt take the things which thou hast received, which have been given unto thee in my scriptures {i.e. standard works} for a law {i.e. understood in its widest sense, includes doctrine}, to be my law {and doctrine} to govern my church;”

Forgive my inadequate “mental gymnastics” but help me understand how God can have always been God (only one ever) and eternal progression be true?

I don’t know what “eternal progression” is. It is not a concept that is contained in LDS scripture, and I don’t know what it means. You are making a lot of assumptions about LDS doctrine which are not true.

I would hardly call section 131 and 132 of your D&C “speculation”. In fact they shed a whole new light on just what is meant in LDS doctrine by “eternal god” as it indicates that mortals on this earth can become “gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting”. That indicates to me a somewhat different definition of Eternal when used with God.

Quite possibly. God’s concept of infinity and eternity are almost certainly very different form ours.

To conclude, I must add that you are discussing LDS doctrine in far too general and vague terms to make it possible to get into a serious discussion about anything. If you want these discussions to get anywhere, you must be more specific, focus on a particular subject, topic, doctrine, or theological principle, and give specific examples of what you are referring to or talking about, so that we can discuss them, and be specific on what we are discussing.

amgid

 

[amgid]

Tmaque:

It would appear from your posts from the BOM that you believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are the very same person. Are you now going to tell us they are not? If so, please show us in LDS scriptures where and how it makes such a distinction.

D&C 130:

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

JS-H 1:

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
Other passages could be quoted, but these are the most explicit ones

amgid

 

[Tmaque]

amgid:

D&C 130:

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

JS-H 1:

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
Other passages could be quoted, but these are the most explicit ones

amgid

Ok, then which is it? Is it:
“Christ was the God, the Father of all things” which makes it clear that Jesus IS God the Father??

Or, is it:
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also” which makes it clear that they are NOT the same being???

These passages are in no way amiguous in the message they intend to convey. This is one of the main reasons I left the LDS Church. The LDS scriptures are totally contradictory regarding the very nature of God. And, the leadership can’t make up it’s mind from generation to generation in deciding which of these passages of scripture to emphasize.

 

[amgid]

Tmaque:

Ok, then which is it? Is it:
“Christ was the God, the Father of all things” which makes it clear that Jesus IS God the Father??

Or, is it:
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also” which makes it clear that they are NOT the same being???

These passages are in no way amiguous in the message they intend to convey. This is one of the main reasons I left the LDS Church. The LDS scriptures are totally contradictory regarding the very nature of God. And, the leadership can’t make up it’s mind from generation to generation in deciding which of these passages of scripture to emphasize.

What you are ignoring is that the Bible appears to be equally contradictory:

John 10:30: My Father and I are one.
John 14:9: He that has seen me has seen the Father.

John 14:28: My Father is greater than I.
John 20:17: I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
So which is it? Are the Father and the Son one or two? As far as I can tell from these scriptures, they could be either.

amgid

 

[Tmaque]

amgid:

What you are ignoring is that the Bible appears to be equally contradictory:

John 10:30: My Father and I are one.
John 14:9: He that has seen me has seen the Father.

John 14:28: My Father is greater than I.
John 20:17: I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
So which is it? Are the Father and the Son one or two? As far as I can tell from these scriptures, they could be either.

amgid

I honestly can’t believe that you expect me to take your response seriously. Your scriptures totally contradict each other and the Bible simply, does not.

In the Bible, Jesus is revealing his true nature, that of God, and man. He is God and he is man. He is God in every way, just as the Father is God in every way. Two different persons, yet consubstantial in nature and both the eternal God.

The BoM and D&C however, are in total disagreement. Jesus can’t BE “God, the Father of all things” as the BoM states, and still have a separate, different, physical body THAN God the Father as stated in the D&C. Surely, even you can make that distinction.

But, you never answered my question. Which is it? Is Jesus God, the Father of all things or not? If so, then what is Heavenly Father’s role in LDS theology?

 

[Katzpur]

Robert in SD:

I’ve read several threads discussing Mormon beliefs about the divinity of Jesus, and the consensus appears to be that Mormon doctrine holds Jesus to be divine, although completely separate and distinct from the Holy Spirit and God the Father (or God the Heavenly Father as Mormons prefer).

But some comments from posters to the site suggest Jesus was human just like us, or that he became God (or a god) at some point aftter he took on human form and is now divine.

I’m seeking clarification on the Mormon point-of-view. So, I’m calling to Mormons and to anyone who has studied the Mormon faith out there on the site, can you tell me your doctrinal understanding of the origins of Jesus’ Divinity? What do Mormons believe? Was he always a god? Was he always our God? Was he ever just human? Did he progress to divinity from humanity? Your responses are sincerely appreciated.

Hi,

First off, let me introduce myself. I’m Katzpur (or Kathryn, whichever you’d prefer), and I’m LDS. A friend referred me to this site and this is my first post here.

Secondly, I hope you’ll excuse me for not reading all of the posts on this thread before answering. I really just don’t have time to do do. If I can, I’ll at least glance through them to see if there is anything I might add that this post doesn’t cover. And hopefully, I will be able to add at least something that hasn’t already been mentioned.

Now, to answer the question…

We believe that Jesus Christ is and always has been “God.” We just don’t believe that He is the same individual as God the Father. We believe that He was with His Father “in the beginning,” as the scriptures state. We even believe that He was the Creator of worlds without number, acting under the direction of His Father. We believe, again as is stated in the Bible, that He had the power within himself, to raise himself from the dead. He didn’t need to rely on anyone else (i.e. His Father) to do this for Him. So yes, He is every bit as divine as God the Father. Most of the time, when we use the word, “God,” we are speaking of God the Father. That doesn’t mean we believe it is inaccurate to use the word “God” to refer to the Son. But more often, we refer to the Son as our “Lord.” I hope this helps some.

God bless,
Kathryn

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi Kathryn,
Welcome aboard. But your answer does not address the issue. The simple fact is (as has been shown ad nauseum here) the LDS Church teaches that:

The LDS Elohim was not always a god. He was once a man like us, and through obedience to his god, after some period of time became a god.

There was no Jehovah (later known as Jesus) while the LDS Elohim was still a mortal on a planet somewhere “working out his salvation with fear and trembling”. Jehovah did not exist until the now-exalted Elohim and his goddess-wife gave spiritual birth to him in the celestial kingdom.

Knowing this, how can you say that Jesus/Jehovah was ALWAYS divine? If Jehovah’s Heavenly Father was not always divine, then how can you say that Jehovah was ALWAYS divine? Did Jehovah pre-date Elohim as a god? that makes no sense, even within Mormon cosmology.

The LDS definition of “from the beginning” seems to be “from the beginning of Elohim’s exaltation”. Therefore your definition of “always” must be unique as well.

Awaiting your answer,
Paul

 

[Katzpur]

PaulDupre:

Hi Kathryn,
Welcome aboard. But your answer does not address the issue. The simple fact is (as has been shown ad nauseum here) the LDS Church teaches that:

The LDS Elohim was not always a god. He was once a man like us, and through obedience to his god, after some period of time became a god.

I’m not sure why you don’t believe I addressed the issue. It appears to have changed on me mid-stream. The title of this thread is, “When did the Mormon Jesus become divine?” I answered that question. If you want to discuss our beliefs about Elohim, perhaps you should start a thread on the subject.

There was no Jehovah (later known as Jesus) while the LDS Elohim was still a mortal on a planet somewhere “working out his salvation with fear and trembling”. Jehovah did not exist until the now-exalted Elohim and his goddess-wife gave spiritual birth to him in the celestial kingdom.

That’s a pretty creative interpretation of LDS doctrine. Why don’t you begin by stating your sources, which should, of course, be from the Standard Works. (I’m assuming you are willing to allow us the privilege of defining our own docrine.)

Knowing this, how can you say that Jesus/Jehovah was ALWAYS divine? If Jehovah’s Heavenly Father was not always divine, then how can you say that Jehovah was ALWAYS divine? Did Jehovah pre-date Elohim as a god? that makes no sense, even within Mormon cosmology.

It obviously makes no sense to you, but it does to me. As a matter of fact, I would venture a guess that it makes more sense to me than the doctrine of the Trinity makes to you.

The LDS definition of “from the beginning” seems to be “from the beginning of Elohim’s exaltation”. Therefore your definition of “always” must be unique as well.

That’s entirely possible. There are numerous instances in the Bible where the words “everlasting” and “forever” are used to describe things we all know will not last forever. Yes, “in the beginning” must mean something different to us than it means to you. To us it means something along the lines of “when the clock started ticking.” If God existed prior to “the beginning,” what do you believe He was doing?

Kathryn

 

[amgid]

Tmaque:

I honestly can’t believe that you expect me to take your response seriously. Your scriptures totally contradict each other and the Bible simply, does not.

And I can’t believe how you try to wriggle out of a difficult situation with this kind of silly talk.

In the Bible, Jesus is revealing his true nature, that of God, and man. He is God and he is man. He is God in every way, just as the Father is God in every way. Two different persons, yet consubstantial in nature and both the eternal God.

That is how you try get round your own problem. But that is not how I read those scriptures. All I see as I compare these scriptures is that there appears to be a contradiction. In fact there are many passages in the Bible which on the surface would appear to be contradictory. The apparent contradictions that one notices in Modern LDS scripture are no greater than what one finds in the Bible.

The BoM and D&C however, are in total disagreement. Jesus can’t BE “God, the Father of all things” as the BoM states, and still have a separate, different, physical body THAN God the Father as stated in the D&C. Surely, even you can make that distinction.

No I don’t! Being “the Father of all things” is not the same as being “God the Father”. The “Father of all things” means the creator of all things. Jesus created all thing under the direction of the Father, for “without him was not anything made that was made.” But He remains subservient to, and under the direction of the Father.

But, you never answered my question. Which is it? Is Jesus God, the Father of all things or not? If so, then what is Heavenly Father’s role in LDS theology?

The first Presidency of the Church at one time put out a statement in response to that question, entitled “The Father And The Son: A Doctrinal Exposition”. It should answer your question. You will find the full text of it here:

schoolofabraham.com/fatherandson.htm

The first part of it is an introductory note by the editor. You can ignore that if you like. The main text of the statement starts at the heading.

amgid