When did you become a human being?

[AHapka]

What I think is interesting is if X murdered Y in revenge for a murder Y committed, certain religious people would condemn that as immoral. Yet these very same people have no problem with the state doing the same thing. They see no immorality in it.

Who authorized the state to do this? Where do they get this authority from? God? Or the people?

Ahh…but the state is not a person. The state is an instrument that governs people (ideally for their overall benefit).

As far as I see it the state gets it’s authority from both God and the people.

Ideally, the state would apply the death penalty as a form of justice after a fair and just trial when no other means of controlling the criminal and safeguarding society exist.

However, in reality we do have problems with the way the death penalty is done in the United States. This is why I am personally opposed to the death penalty even though I do not think it is in principle wrong. At the very least I don’t think we should sentence people to death when it is based only on verbal testimony. There should be a very high evidentiary standard. And we do need to work harder to find better ways of holding these people where they don’t pose a risk to prison staff.

 

[HailStarofSea]

I didnt say it does. I said wider society is protected. But nothing gives the state the right to decide who can life and who can’t.

It’s the height of hyporcacy to me, to listen to** some religious people** sermonizing about forgiveness and repentance and rehabilitation and salvation, and at the same time, supporting the death penalty.

The death penalty is nothing but state legislated murder. How any person of any religion could support it, I will never understand.

What I think is interesting is if X murdered Y in revenge for a murder Y committed, certain religious people would condemn that as immoral. Yet these very same people have no problem with the state doing the same thing. They see no immorality in it.

Who authorized the state to do this? Where do they get this authority from? God? Or the people?

**More proof what is classed as moral, and immoral, is little more than the consensus of the majority. **

Sarah x

This doesn’t make sense. You are looking at “some” religious people, and saying that their opinion is “classified” as moral. When in Catholicism was their opinion “classified?” Do these people’s opinions represent Catholic teaching?

 

[Justinian_III]

Psalm 139:

13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

So does killing a woman in war the same thing as killing a bunch of potential life, but life all the same?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Can you explain why the Church teaches that not all killing is murder?

The Church teachs that killing in self-defense, either as an individual or as a society, is not murder and that the guilt of that death belongs to the violent aggressor, not the one defending him or her self.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

There was a man in my area who was “locked away forever” and ended up killing a prison guard. Some people remain dangerous in prison. Not to mention the many convicts who preside over dangerous gangs while behind bars. Life imprisonment does not always constitute unable to continue doing harm.

Many of these “death row” inmates have long tentacles that reach beyond prison and are able to orchestrate murders from behind bars. The only way to keep society safe from them is to either execute them or put them on an isolated island with zero chance of escaping and zero chance of outside communication.

 

[GraceDK]

Hi,

At what moment did you become a human being? When did your life begin? When did it become illegal for your mother to terminate your mortal life?

There was being… and it was human… it certainly wasnt a giraffic being… even from the very beginning this being was being, and it had a human DNA and was human. All else is nonsense.

 

[atheistgirl]

Do these people’s opinions represent Catholic teaching?

I used the term ‘‘some’’ as I’m not aware of a Christian religious faith that exclusively supports and promotes the death penalty. Muslims do and it’s in their Holy Book.

Some Catholic Bishops have apparently signed a document saying they are opposed to the death penalty, but if my understanding is correct, the Catholic Church, as a unified organ, has never outright condemned the death penalty. I’d love to hear than I’m wrong. So within Catholicism, there are people who are violently opposed to abortion, yet support the death penalty. As I said, it’s complete hypocracy to me, to hold that position.

Either all of life is valuable, or it isn’t. To me, all of life is precious and valuable. No ifs. No buts.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

In a third world country with a prison that you can buy your way out of, it becomes a much different conversation.

I understand what you’re saying. But that’s a matter for those living in that society, and their systems. In no way does the fact some warderns are open to bribes leave a door open for the death penalty. Not to me anyhow.

You may have guessed I am opposed to the death penalty, under every circumstance, for everyone, and no amount of failings within the system would convince me the death penalty is a viable alternative to addressing them.

Sarah x

 

[Elizium23]

If all life is valuable to you, then why won’t you support safeguarding and protecting it by just, legal means at the state’s disposal? Sometimes that includes the death penalty. Yes, we believe the death penalty should be safe, legal and rare. In many cases it can be abolished in favor of advanced penal methods. But there is a time and place when it is appropriate. Supporting legal penal methods is appropriate stewardship of the well-being of a nation’s citizens, and is ordered toward the dignity of life and the dignity of human beings.

If you were on a deserted island with your family, and a deranged killer threatened your children, would you respect his right to life and allow him to kill your children, or would you protect your children’s safety and kill the killer in self-defense? That is certainly not murder.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

If all life is valuable to you, then why won’t you support safeguarding and protecting it by just, legal means at the state’s disposal? Sometimes that includes the death penalty. Yes, we believe the death penalty should be safe, legal and rare. In many cases it can be abolished in favor of advanced penal methods. But there is a time and place when it is appropriate. Supporting legal penal methods is appropriate stewardship of the well-being of a nation’s citizens, and is ordered toward the dignity of life and the dignity of human beings.

If you were on a deserted island with your family, and a deranged killer threatened your children, would you respect his right to life and allow him to kill your children, or would you protect your children’s safety and kill the killer in self-defense? That is certainly not murder.

And this last part is exactly what the church teaches.

 

[Robertanthony]

Self-indulgence, moral relativism, hedonism, the sexual act divorced from its natural end, the sexual revolution, availability of contraceptive means etc. all work together and create this tsunami, and no mere words will ever defeat a tsunami.

As for the discussion at hand, I was stunned when I found what was the Church’s teaching concerning killing in self-defense, which seems to contradict Jesus’ exhortion that “if a man asks you to carry his stuff for a mile, carry it for two miles, if a man steals your shirt, give him a second one, and to turn the other cheek”*. Plus Jesus never lifted a finger to defend his life where clearly it was threatened and forbade Peter from doing so, and we’re told to imitate Christ… I don’t know through which process the Catholic Church derived the killing in self-defense from Jesus’ person, character, or teachings but it appears like a formidable feat. Anyhow, the only justifiable reason (for a state)to put someone to death is if he/she is a threat to society, which, with maximum security prisons, is not really the case. If someone objects that they can kill the wardens and escape, then we should bump off all those convicted of a violent crime, which, truth be told, I won’t lose sleep over.

*paraphrasing.

 

[atheistgirl]

If all life is valuable to you, then why won’t you support safeguarding and protecting it by just, legal means at the state’s disposal?

I do. But I exclude the death penalty. I exclude the states right to murder someone in my name.

But there is a time and place when it is appropriate.

Do you believe the arguments that say there is a time and place where it’s appropriate to abort an unborn child, because of the risks to the mother? Of course you don’t!

Supporting legal penal methods is appropriate stewardship of the well-being of a nation’s citizens, and is ordered toward the dignity of life and the dignity of human beings.

No to me it violates the dignity of the human being, gives the state the right to murder, and says not all human life is equally valuable and precious.

If you were on a deserted island with your family, and a deranged killer threatened your children, would you respect his right to life and allow him to kill your children, or would you protect your children’s safety and kill the killer in self-defense? That is certainly not murder.

I will do all in my power to protect myself and my family. My life and my families life is equally precious and valuable. But I will also do all in my power to avoid killing the person where it is humanly possible to do so. If the person should be killed, it will be accident.

As opposed to the state who deliberately and coldly and premeditatively murders the individual.

I’m sorry, but there is nothing can be said, nothing, that justifies what is to me, the completely hypocritical position of on the one hand defending the unborn, and on the other, murdering prisoners.

Either ALL life is precious, or it isnt! In my book, you dont get to decide who lives and who dies.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

I do. But I exclude the death penalty. I exclude the states right to murder someone in my name.

Do you believe the arguments that say there is a time and place where it’s appropriate to abort an unborn child, because of the risks to the mother? Of course you don’t!

No to me it violates the dignity of the human being, gives the state the right to murder, and says not all human life is equally valuable and precious.

I will do all in my power to protect myself and my family. My life and my families life is equally precious and valuable. But I will also do all in my power to avoid killing the person where it is humanly possible to do so. If the person should be killed, it will be accident.

As opposed to the state who deliberately and coldly and premeditatively murders the individual.

I’m sorry, but there is nothing can be said, nothing, that justifies what is to me, the completely hypocritical position of on the one hand defending the unborn, and on the other, murdering prisoners.

Either ALL life is precious, or it isnt! In my book, you dont get to decide who lives and who dies.

Sarah x

Irrefutable!

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Self-indulgence, moral relativism, hedonism, the sexual act divorced from its natural end, the sexual revolution, availability of contraceptive means etc. all work together and create this tsunami, and no mere words will ever defeat a tsunami.

As for the discussion at hand, I was stunned when I found what was the Church’s teaching concerning killing in self-defense, which seems to contradict Jesus’ exhortion that “if a man asks you to carry his stuff for a mile, carry it for two miles, if a man steals your shirt, give him a second one, and to turn the other cheek”*. Plus Jesus never lifted a finger to defend his life where clearly it was threatened and forbade Peter from doing so, and we’re told to imitate Christ… I don’t know through which process the Catholic Church derived the killing in self-defense from Jesus’ person, character, or teachings but it appears like a formidable feat. Anyhow, the only justifiable reason (for a state)to put someone to death is if he/she is a threat to society, which, with maximum security prisons, is not really the case. If someone objects that they can kill the wardens and escape, then we should bump off all those convicted of a violent crime, which, truth be told, I won’t lose sleep over.

*paraphrasing.

Jesus was born to die for our sins. That is why He forbade Peter from stopping the temple guards, because Peter was frustrating the very purpose of Jesus’s life.

 

[Christine85]

Life is precious. I agree with Sarah. I wish we did live in a world that really did follow all of Jesus teachings. All we can do is live in hope and pray

 

[nightranger]

Hi,

At what moment did you become a human being?

I’m still waiting to find out.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

When I got my own DNA, at conception!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Robert
**
As for the discussion at hand, I was stunned when I found what was the Church’s teaching concerning killing in self-defense, which seems to contradict Jesus’ exhortion that “if a man asks you to carry his stuff for a mile, carry it for two miles, if a man steals your shirt, give him a second one, and to turn the other cheek”***

There’s a difference. Christ does not say, “When a man wants to kill you, let him.”

 

[PumpkinSeed]

When I was born. Before I was born, by medical terms I was a fetus.

If a fetus is a complete human being, then I guess I became one 12 hours after my parents had sex.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

When I was born. Before I was born, by medical terms I was a fetus.

If a fetus is a complete human being, then I guess I became one 12 hours after my parents had sex.

Both science and religion concur that you became you at the moment you were conceived. Whether you were aware of yourself is irrelevant to the question. All life begins at the moment of conception, be it human, chimpanzee, tree sloth, pumpkin or dandelion.