When do you allow your children to court/date?

[Bobby_Jim]

Rach620:

Why is it not okay to date until you are ready to get married? I’m not ready to marry right now (I’m off to college in the fall…) but I’m in an amazing relationship that is teaching me so much about myself, my faith, and what I want in marriage in the future. Putting limits on when your kids can have relationships with members of the opposite sex isn’t always… the best way of protecting them. If you’ve raised them well, they should seek out healthy relationships, and could greatly benefit from them.

I take some issue with the idea of going through romantic relationships as an opportunity for personal growth, even if it is mutual, e.g. both people in the relationship are experiencing personal growth, learning about themselves, etc. I don’t mean this as a personal judgment because I don’t know your specific case, your motivations, etc. But a question I would often ask in a case like this is whether the relationship is about “us” or is it about “me”, or even “him & me”? Are we individuals who are each learning things that will benefit each of us after we have moved on to other things (other relationships?) in our lives, or are we learning things that will specifically benefit us in spending the rest of our lives together in marriage?

I don’t think it’s worth going through relationships for the sake of learning about yourself or “relationship skills” or whatever… in a way, the other person in the relationship is simply a means to an end, that being the betterment of yourself. And that is exactly the wrong thing in preparing for someday entering into a lifelong marriage.

If the relationship is not progressing toward marriage in some meaningful way (as opposed to a vague, “maybe someday we’ll be ready”), then I think the harm outweighs the good. Friendship is the way to go in that case.

But hey, what do I know…

 

[Rach620]

Tietjen:

However, “dating” relationships go beyond the comfort level for me. Let me ask you something. What do you get out of your relationship with your boyfriend? Cannot you find those things in a simple friendship? Why not have friends (just friends) and learn with them about yourself, your faith, etc. You can learn about what you want in a spouse by OBSERVING your parents and other married couples who are far more experienced in this matter.

What do I get out of my relationship with my boyfriend? A lot… someone to talk to about everything, someone who I feel understands me a lot better than many people… a great friend. Our relationship is based on friendship and the love of God… we aren’t just dating for the sake of dating. We met several months ago, became friends, and just realized we clicked and wanted a deeper relationship with one another. I feel like it’s a very healthy, Christ-centered relationship that has benefited my life so much, not only as a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship but as a deep friendship.

Also, by the way… I’m almost 19 years old. So I’m not really speaking as a boy-crazy 15 year old here. I haven’t been sitting through high school praying to find a guy… it just happened.

 

[Rach620]

Bobby Jim:

I don’t think it’s worth going through relationships for the sake of learning about yourself or “relationship skills” or whatever… in a way, the other person in the relationship is simply a means to an end, that being the betterment of yourself. And that is exactly the wrong thing in preparing for someday entering into a lifelong marriage.

If the relationship is not progressing toward marriage in some meaningful way (as opposed to a vague, “maybe someday we’ll be ready”), then I think the harm outweighs the good. Friendship is the way to go in that case.

Maybe I’m not expressing myself well enough online here… but I’m definitely not in a relationship to “learn relationship skills” or purely to learn about myself. We’re both in this relationship discerning our vocations and learning about our faith. At this point, we don’t know where it’s going to go. But who does know, when they start dating, that they’re “progressing towards marriage in a meaningful way”? There’s a point where you’re just learning about yourself and about the other person, building on a friendship. That’s where I am.

 

[Tietjen]

Rach620:

What do I get out of my relationship with my boyfriend? A lot… someone to talk to about everything, someone who I feel understands me a lot better than many people… a great friend. Our relationship is based on friendship and the love of God… we aren’t just dating for the sake of dating. We met several months ago, became friends, and just realized we clicked and wanted a deeper relationship with one another. I feel like it’s a very healthy, Christ-centered relationship that has benefited my life so much, not only as a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship but as a deep friendship.

Also, by the way… I’m almost 19 years old. So I’m not really speaking as a boy-crazy 15 year old here. I haven’t been sitting through high school praying to find a guy… it just happened.

I did not mean to come across as though you were and if I did, I apologize. You asked a question and I gave you my opinion. Take it for what is its worth or do not take it at all. Either way, I wish you well and God bless.

 

[Hermione]

To all the parents who want to control their children’s dating experiences… be careful, or you might destroy their lives and their chances to have good marriages.

There were similar threads on this forum before, with accounts (first hand or otherwise) of people who met in their mid-late teens and are now happily married. (In the not too distant past, it was normal for people to marry early.)

I met my fiance when I was 18 and he was 17. I can’t imagine being with anyone else, and if he were to die right now I would remain single for the rest of my life (unless of course God explicitly commanded me not to be). If either of our parents tried to break up our relationship, it would shatter our relationship with the said parents. If they managed to succeed, it would cause us great pain for the rest of our lives.

Meeting the person who would make the perfect spouse for your child may be a once-in-a-lifetime event (or it may never happen). You should be careful about letting your ideas about age and dating destroy their futures and happiness.

 

[Tietjen]

Hermione:

To all the parents who want to control their children’s dating experiences… be careful, or you might destroy their lives and their chances to have good marriages.

On the other hand, you might be saving them.

Hermione:

There were similar threads on this forum before, with accounts (first hand or otherwise) of people who met in their mid-late teens and are now happily married. (In the not too distant past, it was normal for people to marry early.)

Yes, it was and my great-grandparents were married in their teens. Times have changed however, and today divorce rates are above 50%. In my great-grandparents day, divorce was frowned upon and society looked upon it with distain. In addition, the boy would come and ask the girl’s father for permission to date/court his daughter. If the father said no, that was the end of it. Again, times have changed.

Hermione:

Meeting the person who would make the perfect spouse for your child may be a once-in-a-lifetime event (or it may never happen). You should be careful about letting your ideas about age and dating destroy their futures and happiness.

With all do respect, I am trying to help my children by having rules in place with regards to dating in order to prevent hardships from occurring. I am fortunate in that my children 15, 16, & 18, do not fight me on my “ideas” concerning this issue or the issues of drugs, alcohol, etc. That’s certainly not to say that we are always in agreement. Society has changed from the days when my great-grandparents were alive. If a parent wants to protect their children from the “wrong things” in society, you should not warn them against it. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with teaching your children to wait until they are mature (mentally, spiritually and chronologically) and financially capable of supporting a family before they begin dating/courting. Society may disagree with me. That’s okay. Society also supports abortion and divorce and yet my “ideas” will not change on these issues either. If marriage is for life and courting/dating is intended to lead towards marriage, why would I not want my children as completely prepared as possible?

If I am again sounding insulting, forgive me. That is not my intention. However, when it comes to my kids, I may come off that way.
God bless.

 

[Hermione]

All I am saying is be careful. If my parents or my fiance’s parents had tried or were to try to break us up, it would ruin our lives and our relationships with our parents.

You seem to care about your children, so take their futures into consideration. What if one of your children were to meet the person they thought was “the one” right now and told you about it, what would you do?

You have the power to make your children’s lives good, but you also have the power to severely damage them.

What if because of you one of your children will miss out on meeting the person who would have made a wonderful spouse, parent etc.?

I’m not saying that you should tell your children to go hook up with someone at a party! But be open to the possibility that they will meet the person God wants them to marry before they’re independent and ready to start a family. People have long engagements. People wait for each other. Finding the person you’re going to marry is not some checklist you fill out (am I financially stable? ready to start a family? etc.) According to your rules I should break up with my fiance, wait until I’m in my mid twenties, and then find a Catholic man who meets some standard check-list style criteria. It sounds like a recipe for a very unhappy life to me.

They’re your children, but they’re not your property. I agree that your 15 and 16 year olds are very likely too young to date, I would not say the same about your 18 year old. Remember, he is an independent human being, and even though you have a lot of power in his life, you should not abuse it.

Ask yourself this honestly, what if tomorrow your 18 year old came to you and told you that he is in love with someone and wants to marry her/him once he is ready to start a family? (This would take a few years.) What would you do?

 

[princz23]

If I say age 7, would that upset anyone?

One of my twin sons (age 7) has had a precious and intense interest in a girl from his kindergarten class for over a year now. It is not your normal crush. She feels the same way and they have had two supervised (by both myself and her mother as well as several siblings) playdates.

This little girl did not talk for the first six months of kindergarten, until my son brought her out of her shell. She talks fine, but is very shy. By May, the Holy Spirit had worked on her and she did a reading at school Mass. It was amazing.

Both her parents and my husband and I feel these children may indeed marry some day. They communicate without speaking in a way I just cannot describe. In a way, our two families are coming together in a way that could make a future for them extraordinarily blessed. We are both raising our children to follow church teaching. My son says he believes this girl is the one God has chosen for him.

What do you think, can you meet the love of your life in kindergarten?

 

[Tietjen]

Hermione:

Ask yourself this honestly, what if tomorrow your 18 year old came to you and told you that he is in love with someone and wants to marry her/him once he is ready to start a family? (This would take a few years.) What would you do?

Before we continue this discussion, let’s define what is meant by dating/courting. As you view it, is there a difference between “friendships” and “dating/courting?” If so, what is the difference?

I view it this way. A friend is considered a friend regardless of gender. You can talk with a friend, go to lunch with a friend, take in a ballgame with a friend, etc. There is no expectation that the friendship will go beyond what it is… a friendship. Dating/courting is done with the expectation of something further developing. In my view (which may differ from yours), it is when two people are searching for potential spouses. I do not believe in “casual dating” which I define as dating without being open to the possibility of marriage. It is therefore my opinion, that dating/courting should not be considered until the participants are ready for the end result, which is marriage. Therefore, it is my opinion that children under 18 should certainly not date/court. Likewise, it is my opinion that those over 18 who lack the necessary items required to make a good marriage (a house or apartment, financial means, emotional and spiritual maturity, etc) should not date/court, because without those basic items, a marriage (the end goal of dating/courting) is off to a rocky start. There is an order to things. One does not frame a house before the foundation is set.

Now that I have defined my view of what a friendship is as opposed to what dating/courting is, let me add that I do not object to any of my sons having female “friends.” They all have both male and female friends. They do not however date/court. Should my 18 year old son approach me in the situation you described above, I would strongly suggest that he keep his life simple until he finishes college and establishes himself professionally. He would be far better able to stroll down the path towards marriage having already set his foundation.
God bless.

 

[Hermione]

I agree with your definitions of friendships and dating/courting. At the same time, one can easily become the other…

Let me tell you my situation. I met my fiance two years ago, we were just friends at first, then we became best friends, then we realized we fell in love. We decided to pursue the relationship with the intent to discern marriage (no, we didn’t have everything ready to get married, but once the feelings were there we couldn’t say goodbye either, which seems what you would have had us do). After a while we realized that we did indeed want to spend the rest of our lives together.

Can we get married now? No. We must wait for several years until we graduate from college.

If you were my parent, it seems that you would have told me to forget about my fiance and keep my life “simple”.

We don’t have our own apartments, we don’t have financial means. We depend on our parents to put us through college.

Does that make the commitment we have for each other or the love we have for each other any less deep? No. We would rather get married now, but alas we cannot so we will wait.

If you had been my parent and had somehow prevented me from developing the wonderful relationship that I am now in (by the way, my fiance brought me to Catholicism from being an atheist/agnostic), I would probably have never met another person like him, never have had a relationship this wonderful, never would have had a happy life.

If you had been my parent and tried to make me end my relationship after it had developed, it would very likely have ended my relationship with you.

Marriage isn’t a formula. I could have the apartment, the financial securty, the emotional and religious maturity, the partner who is likewise stable, mature, faithful to the Church etc. and have an empty, loveless marriage.

Or I could wait a few years to have a wonderful marriage and family with the person I love.

I think you should be very careful if you ever decide to control your children’s romantic relationships. It could ruin their lives, and your relationship with them.

 

[Tietjen]

Hermione:

I agree with your definitions of friendships and dating/courting. At the same time, one can easily become the other…

This is possible but not without being aware that the friendship is entering another stage. All that I am saying is that before two people start down that particular path, they should consider keeping it at a friendship level. Then, after they have finished school, matured and are established they will be better ready to open the door towards marriage. When a person is young, they have decades of time still in front of them (God willing). Why rush towards a life long commitment before having as many things going for them as possible?

Hermione:

Let me tell you my situation. I met my fiance two years ago, we were just friends at first, then we became best friends, then we realized we fell in love. We decided to pursue the relationship with the intent to discern marriage (no, we didn’t have everything ready to get married, but once the feelings were there we couldn’t say goodbye either, which seems what you would have had us do). After a while we realized that we did indeed want to spend the rest of our lives together.

You misunderstand me. I am not saying that a person should say “goodbye” to their friend. I’m suggesting simply that a person should maintain that friendship at the friendship level and continue to make their primary focus education, spiritual maturity, professional stability. He/she can certainly can have friends and still do this.

Hermione:

Can we get married now? No. We must wait for several years until we graduate from college.

See, we are not so different then. You are acknowledging that education should come first and that there is plenty of time to pursue marriage after the hurtle of education is behind you.

Hermione:

If you were my parent, it seems that you would have told me to forget about my fiance and keep my life “simple”.

No, that is not what I would have said at all. I would never suggest that you “forget” about someone you care for. Rather, I would have suggested that the two of you hold off on progressing down the path toward marriage until you finished school and knew yourselves better. How many people entering college really know what they want to do and stick with it? Ask an education counselor how many times he/she sees students who want to change their majors. If a person cannot even stay focused on what he/she wants to become in life, why make decisions about a sacrament, which is a life long commitment?

Hermione:

We don’t have our own apartments, we don’t have financial means. We depend on our parents to put us through college.

As do most. Which is exactly why I strongly support children waiting until they can support themselves before looking toward taking on the responsibility of a family?

Hermione:

Does that make the commitment we have for each other or the love we have for each other any less deep? No. We would rather get married now, but alas we cannot so we will wait.

That is very mature and wise.

Hermione:

If you had been my parent and had somehow prevented me from developing the wonderful relationship that I am now in (by the way, my fiance brought me to Catholicism from being an atheist/agnostic), I would probably have never met another person like him, never have had a relationship this wonderful, never would have had a happy life.

You may be correct. However, I would have not forbidden you (or tried to forbid you) from being friends with your current fiancé. I trust God has a plan for each individual He has placed on the earth. I hardly believe that I could change that plan. Rather, I could be an instrument in assisting His plan toward reality. We can discuss “what ifs” or “probablies” all day. In the end, God’s plan for you and for my sons will be realized with or without my (name removed by moderator)ut. Maybe, I simply feel the need to help smooth out the obstacles which may impede that plan.
(PART 1 of 3)

 

[Tietjen]

Hermione:

If you had been my parent and tried to make me end my relationship after it had developed, it would very likely have ended my relationship with you.

Ahh, but therein lays the problem. If I had been your parent, I would have given you my advice (in a loving way) BEFORE the relationship developed into an engagement, not after. You would have been exposed to my love and beliefs for 18 years and maybe you would realize that what I am trying to say isn’t meant to cause you problems but rather to help you to meet your full potential prior to taking on the responsibilities of pursuing marriage.

Hermione:

Marriage isn’t a formula. I could have the apartment, the financial securty, the emotional and religious maturity, the partner who is likewise stable, mature, faithful to the Church etc. and have an empty, loveless marriage.

If you could have all those things and your partner likewise had those things and those “things” complimented and supported each of you as individuals, then I do not see how those “things” would not support and even uplift a loving marriage.

Hermione:

Or I could wait a few years to have a wonderful marriage and family with the person I love.

Which is what I support. Where you and I seem to differ is where simple friendship ends and courting begins.

Hermione:

I think you should be very careful if you ever decide to control your children’s romantic relationships. It could ruin their lives, and your relationship with them.

God gave me a responsibility to look out for the wellbeing of my children; He blessed me with 3 sons. I take that responsibility very seriously. I do not abuse my influence as their parent or place obstacles in their path to cause them heartache. I guide and instruct them in order that they may experience God’s love and plan for them in their lives romantically and otherwise. I am confident that if they don’t share my views today, that they will come to share them when they have experienced society on their own and matured into responsible contributing adults. Just as I did not expect my sons to understand completely my reasons for setting bedtimes and curfews (which are still in effect even for the 18 year old) today, I am faithful that they will see the wisdom in it when they are more mature.
(Part 2 of 3)

 

[Tietjen]

I have enjoyed our conversation Hermione. Moreover, I really do respect your opinion, even if I do not share it completely. You appear to be a very mature young woman and I wish you all the best. The original question was “When do you allow your children to court/date?” and I have answered that question and given the reasons behind my answer. Those reasons are based on my personal experiences and what the Church teaches relating to marriage. I began dating at 15 years old. I thought that I knew more about who I was and what I needed and wanted than my parents did (actually, they did not oppose my dating at such an early age). However, as I matured and grew wiser, I revaluated my position on the subject in order to help ensure that my children did not encounter the same problems that I had to learn the hard way. I met my wife while I was serving in the Army and she was a freshman in university. We dated and became engaged shortly thereafter. I came down on orders to return to Germany and rather than the two of us staying focused on our original goals, we married and she dropped out of school to accompany me to Europe. Nineteen years later, we are now having to work through resentments that marrying while still young brings, in counseling. My wife did eventually go back and complete her education but her career goals had to be placed on hold for over a decade while I continued to serve in the military. That brought about much silent resentment because though she loved me, she had to put her life’s plans on hold do to our marriage and the constant reassignments throughout the world. She is now doing very well professionally but we both wish we had waited until we were more established in our own individual maturities. The “feeling” of love is exciting and something that many crave and think that they need. However, the truth is that feelings come and go and actual love is an action rather than simply a feeling. Today’s society confuses the two (as my wife and I did so many years ago). The reality is that love is hard work and deserves one’s complete attention. If dating/courting is intended to lead to marriage, as I believe it is, then I simply want my children to know and understand this BEFORE they walk down that path. School, growing up, maturing (spiritually and mentally) is also hard work as I am sure that you are aware. How much harder is it to then throw on all the work required to truly love and serve another person? Again, why not wait until you have overcome the intense pressures of maturing, education and financial independence before adding to the pressure? That is all that I am attempting to say in this forum and though we may differ on our overall opinion, I think that we agree in part on many of the smaller issues, which make up this complex topic.
Take care and God bless you.
(PART 3 of 3)

 

[StJeanneDArc]

This is a wonderful discussion. I was allowed to double date when I started high school (I was only 13 ) and single date when I turned 15. Looking back I realize that it was waaaaay too young. Although I didn’t have a serious boyfriend until I was 18, those earlier years were not helpful in the least. I and my peer group were a bunch of teenagers just playing at being more grown up than we were. There were a lot of dangers involved and I didn’t completely avoid them and I did fall into a life of sin when I developed the serious relationship at age 18 (I was in college then). My early teen years were in the late 70’s and I was in college in the early 80’s. I realize that my mother’s version of dating was really what we would call platonic socializing now. However, that wasn’t the reality during my teen years, and I don’t think she understood that. I believe things are just as bad now.

If you make a ledger and list pros and cons of teen-aged dating there would be a lot of entries in the con column. Would there be any entries in the pro column?

My oldest is 14 and he wants to be a priest, so he’s not pursuing girls. My other children are being told now that they will not be dating until they’re ready to seriously consider marriage.

 

[Hermione]

Dear Tietjen, thank you for the discussion. I respect your opinion as well, and will say similar things to my future children.

I think the line between friendship and a deep commitment can become blurred very easily. (After all, your spouse is your best friend anyway!) My day-to-day interaction with my fiance is very much like that of best friends. At the same time, we have very deep feelings for each other. We love each other very much. We are committed to each other for life. Once the feelings are there, it’s practically impossible not to be committed. Even if my fiance and I had not made the promises to each other that we’ve made, the commitment would still be there in our hears, our minds etc.

We could not have stopped ourselves from making this commitment in the early stages of our relationship. The only way to do it would have been to greatly limit the amount of time we spend together, the depth of our conversation etc. It would have been equivalent to a break up, and would have been very painful.

So I don’t think you could just tell a person to keep the relationship at a friendship level. If they continue spending time together, talking etc. the depth of their love will increase, the commitment will be there even if it is not stated explicitly. If you command that they stop spending time together, you will cause severe damage to both.

For me, love is an action AND a feeling. The gift of self that spouses make to each other has a very powerful emotional component to it. I feel that I have already made this gift of myself to my fiance. And while this is a conscious choice and a decision, and as I become a better Catholic I learn to be more selfless and put his needs before my own better and better, the driving force for this is the very powerful and deep emotional connection that we share.

 

[bluezone7]

I am not married and do not have kids but I don’t think one size fits all on this topic. All families, children, and situations are not the same.

 

[Mt19_26]

StratusRose:

Yep!

Some of my friends don’t think it’s good. They say I should date other people. Why should I when I landed a good one already? One said, how do you know that he’ll be good in bed? And I said “I don’t need to know, and I won’t know the difference anyway, besides I don’t want to marry a man based on how good he is in bed.”

My wife was my only “serious” relationship. Unfortunately, I’ve had to live through an incident of infidelity on her part. When I had trouble dealing with what happened she told me, “because you haven’t had the experience of past relationships you’re having trouble dealing with it.” She was basically telling me that because she has had past unfaithful relationships she “knows” how to deal with it. It’s almost as if she thinks her past history of unfaithfulness is a good thing. I totally disagree with her. I believe her past has “watered down” what it is to be unfaithful and to her it’s something that is “not that big of a deal”. It’s just another example of how “dating” could change a persons understanding of what a marriage is supposed to be.

So basically I don’t agree with the concept of “dating” unless is has a very real possibility of leading towards marriage.

 

[Batgirl1415]

My mom made it 16,

Now that I’ve dated though, I really think that even now I’m not mature enough. I still have too many crushes and I don’t want to date just any guy. He needs to be mature and CATHOLIC.

I don’t see the point of dating unless I see myself spending the rest of my life with the person. And for that to happen I need to get to know a guy first to see what he’s really like, then maybe move from there…but I don’t really like casual dating. It just isn’t special enough…

Although…I’ve become eccentric in my lonely boyfriendless life twitch twitch:whacky:

 

[chevalier]

Setting a number doesn’t cut it, period. I don’t believe it’s in any way Catholic to establish a numerical age requirement and think the problem is solved.

All premarital relationships are meant to find the right person for marriage and lead to marrying the right person. A “relationship” just to have a boyfriend or girlfriend for the time being is in vain. I don’t say it’s categorically sinful - it’s more complex than that - but it’s in vain.

Dating without a relationship is even more in vain than a relationship that doesn’t lead to discerning the right person for marriage. Dating is not just a social activity.

Here, an important thing is what you consider dating: for some people any sort of meeting between a man and a woman is a date (personally, I think that’s rubbish), others think it’s not a date unless called so (which isn’t really right, either).

What is important is to teach your children that we are not only responsible for feelings which we have but also for feelings which we awaken in other people (Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski). Leading on is wrong. Making promises you can’t deliver is wrong. Breaking someone’s heart carelessly is wrong. It’s generally wrong to mistreat people. There’s no such thing as a little lie, especially in the romantic area. Romantic activities are intrinsic to love and love between a man and a woman is exclusive - so to have multiple romantic partners is contrary to natural law and thus sinful. Premarital sex is sinful and stopping short of intercourse doesn’t cut it - unmarried people are simply not meant to experience sexual pleasure, nor to give it to anyone. This is what a child needs to be taught. Age is immaterial. I would also put emphasis on the fact that a teenager will obviously not be able to marry for at least a couple of years yet. While I wouldn’t bar teenagers from pursuing their love or what they think is love, seeking a relationship is not exactly a good idea. Seeking love, yes. But seeking a relationship? Heck, even seeking someone to marry when you are ready for it isn’t really a good idea. Live your life and see what God has in for you. Don’t deceive yourself and other people, don’t treat yourself or others as objects, don’t seek what you can’t handle - this is what I would teach my children if I had any.

 

[Sorbetto]

I don’t have any children, nor am I married yet, but I don’t think my future (hopefully) kids should date until after highschool. I started very young, around 12…actually I had my first kiss at 11! I ended up losing my virginity at an early age and had several sexual partners until I found my current boyfriend, future husband, and the Catholic faith.

Now I wish I would’ve saved myself for him, and I know my early exposure to dating made me grow up too fast, or try to grow up too fast! I would’ve been perfectly fine waiting till I was 18, when I met my honey