When do you know too much about the Catholic Church...?

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Whitney

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I was listening to Catholic Answers live during my 13th hour at work today and the apologist seemed to insinuate that if you listen in and understand, then reject the church teachings you’re doomed. My question is when do I know I’ve crossed the proverbial line? Shouldn’t I stop thinking about and learning about the Catholic Church now while I might still be ahead? I feel like I have an advanced basic understanding of the church’s teaching (certainly more than most of my many American Catholic friends, whom I adore). So maybe in your church’s eyes I’m already beyond hope?
 
we have a duty to inform ourselves of what the church teaches, we can’t just claim ignorance because we were too lazy to try.

are there teachings that you understand and disagree with? is that why you ar e concerned?
 
I don’t think that’s how it works. Catholics, or at least the ones I know, wouldn’t say that someone is doomed just because they know (and understand) what the church teaches. And then the idea of not seeking just so that one can claim ignorance is just overly technical and completely misses the point.

I think under Catholic theology there is obviously more at play in determining whether guilt for ignorance is imputed than just the presence of knowledge or understanding of what is claimed to be the truth, because the key is understanding that it is the truth. Arriving at that conclusion is a matter of more than just knowing and understanding the teachings.

The idea is that you have to do your due diligence, but also that God works with you. So it’s not really for anyone to say these people can’t be saved because they know but don’t believe.
 
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Whitney said:
I was listening to Catholic Answers live during my 13th hour at work today and the apologist seemed to insinuate that if you listen in and understand, then reject the church teachings you’re doomed.
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If this is true, and not a misunderstanding then my personal opinion is that this is flat out wrong. For example, the Eastern Orthodox reject the papal teachings on infallibility and I haven’t heard any Pope recently say that they are going to hell. On the contrary. First of all the current pope Francis, says it is a mortal or grave sin for a Roman Catholic to try to convert an Eastern Orthodox. Why would it be a mortal sin to convert someone if you know that person is going to hell otherwise and his conversion would help him attain his eternal salvation? And if the Eastern Orthodox are going to hell, then why does the Catholic Church allow them to receive the Catholic Eucharist under certain conditions, even though they might not accept papal infallibility?
However, there is a situation where it would be wrong for a person not to convert to Catholicism. Take for example, someone who believes his church to be wrong on several points and as he then goes and studies the Catholic teaches, he becomes convinced that the Catholic church is right on all points, and that his church is wrong. In a case where someone is convinced that the Catholic Church and its teachings are the 100% correct teachings and the other churches are wrong on various points, then it would be better for that person not to reject the idea of conversion to Catholicism.
 
Speaking as a 50 y/o Devout Cradle Catholic, I think, you know too much about the Catholic Church, when you think you know something about the Catholic Church.

Regardless of what anyone tells you by way of knowledge, or what you think you may know, the essence of the Catholic religion has very little do with knowledge and a lot to do with faith.

Many of the greatest Saints were not well-schooled… As a matter of fact, God even choses to work through people who are not educated, so he can make His own presence known better through them…

Furthermore, the Catholic faith is Shrouded in Mysteries, Paradoxes and Ethical Ideals so perfect no one can attain to them…

The result is - you’ll stand convicted of ignorance, confusion, and sin… and, basically, you will be placed in a position where you’ll have to beg for mercy… first out of fear, which is the beginning of wisdom; but, then, second, when you have learned to believe in and cooperate with God, and then trust those beliefs enough to share them charitably with your fellow man, even in the face of persecution - you’ll be at a stage where you can love…

A lot of people, especially learned ones, cannot stand admitting they know nothing… But in Catholicism we learn by faith and revelation, not just by logic - because we all logically break down at some point… and that is when we learn the value of trusting in mercy…

$.02
 
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angell1 said:
we have a duty to inform ourselves of what the church teaches, we can’t just claim ignorance because we were too lazy to try.
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The obligation makes sense, but it has to work within reason.

I used to have a close convert friend who never could get past the fundamentalism he learned when he was a protestant… When pressed on certain gray areas of Spiritual issues, where language would break down, and where he would have to rely on faith, he would always tend toward having to know something…

For example, it’s noble that he was very interested in learning about the faith, but taking issues with modern concerns by arguing Papal Bulls from the 14th Century really seemed to defeat the purpose of what Catholicism is about… I’d argue it’s even impossible… There’s +50 miles of documents in the Vatican Secret Archives, and that’s not to speak for everything in all the Archdiocese, the webites, and so on… And - even if one were to have enough superhuman power to go through all of it - there’ still the question of the difficulties in evangelization, when one has to minister to sinners and pagans, who dont believe a word of it…

Some of the greatest Saints were the simplest people - simply because they basically had the right attitude and idea about what was relevant to a given set of circumstances with respect to the scriptures, catechism, and that simple “understanding” (or bit of wisdom) allowed them enough confidence and grace to comprehend whatever they were confronted with… They probably also made mistakes in the process…

What’s most important is what we see in the perfect and completeness of Jesus… even the apostles in the NT couldnt fathom it, but Christ could… and, it is always Him to whom we should turn, as if we were all still as simple as very young children…
 
You know the Catholic Church when you are celebrating your 2019th birthday,.
 
First of all, I’m happy you’re interested in Catholicism. It sounds like you are trying to know and follow the truth as best you can. If you have found that Catholicism ultimately makes total sense and you can find no good objections, then you should join the Church. However, you should try to make a fair decision by learning any answers your current faith may have. St. John Newman spent a long time in this sort of intermediate stage, so I think that not entering the Church immediately is justified if you have significant reasonable doubt. If you are in immanent danger of death, then you should join whatever religion you believe most likely to posses the fullness of truth. To restate more succinctly, you know too much if you have concluded beyond reasonable doubt that your religion is false and Catholicism holds the fullness of truth without having significant objections and have still made no efforts to join the Church. This is easily one of the most important decisions of your life, so I won’t pressure you to make it too quickly. I will pray for you.
 
I’m pretty sure you’re doomed if you KNOW that what the Church teaches is correct and reject it.
 
If one has access to the internet, I find it immensely improbable that one can be invincibly ignorant. That only works if one was to have no way to know Christ and His Church. You are a Catholic and always will be. Be grateful, it took me a long time to understand what was true and be confirmed.
 
According to Catholic doctrine, faith, which is necessary for salvation, “is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed.” (CCC 150).

Given that, deliberate ignorance in order to avoid assenting to the whole truth would destroy faith.

That being said, so long as one gives that free assent to it all, one does not have to have explicit knowledge of it all–different states in life require more or less. Since this faith is one “neither does one who is able at great length to discourse regarding it, make any addition to it, nor does one, who can say but little diminish it.” (St. Ireneaus, Against Heresies I, 10, 2).

St. Augustine says the same for non-Catholic Christians–honest mistake while giving that total assent is not a sin or contrary to faith:
But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics.
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http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm
 
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AlmaRedemptorisMater said:
If one has access to the internet, I find it immensely improbable that one can be invincibly ignorant. That only works if one was to have no way to know Christ and His Church. You are a Catholic and always will be. Be grateful, it took me a long time to understand what was true and be confirmed.
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I disagree. You’re not necessarily going to run into the right perspective just because you have internet access. Sure, you could make a full time job of it, but if your religion makes sense to you, you might not even think of looking for the other side’s arguments, and even if you look in detail, you might be looking at aetheism instead of Catholicism - there isn’t time for the average person to carefully look at every single religion and philosophy in the world. If you think Catholicism is wrong, why give it special attention? Especially for some Protestants, Catholicism does a lot less harm and a lot more good than say relativism.
 
I hear apologists on Catholic Answers say such things sometimes. Was it Tim Staples? He has a certain way of putting this across that I can see would be unhelpful. But that’s only because there’s only so much you can say in a short radio reply. The Catholic hosts want to do their job and emphasize that salvation is related to the truth they are proclaiming.

But it’s not enough to merely hear and even understand. For example, you could be Protestant and talk to me about sola scriptura. You could be Protestant and even explain to me what sola scriptura is, and I would understand. But this is different from me internalizing it as true, and then rejecting it.

What you don’t want to do is deliberately place stumbling blocks in the way of truth. Like hold your ears while yelling “LALALALA!” But if you’re genuinely seeking the truth, and genuinely trying to understand, then there is no reason why God’s grace would not be active in your life. According to Aquinas, which seems to represent the broader Catholic perspective, as soon as someone stops resisting God’s grace, and is neutral, then God immediately grants that individual grace.

So just don’t deliberately block the truth! If you’re listening to Catholic Answers on your own free will, it sounds a lot to me that you are trying to and willing to learn.
 
If one thinks Catholicism is wrong, that presupposes that one knows of it. And if one knows of Catholicism, it stands to reason that they would know that Catholics proclaim Jesus is Lord. That by its very nature removes ignorance.

I understand the concept of invincible ignorance as taught by the Church, but I do think that you and many others are expanding the concept beyond what is reasonable and it’s doing harm to the message of the Church.

Obviously I am not advocating that one formulates their opinion solely on what is available on the internet, that’s ridiculous. But I am saying that awareness of the Church is nearly universal now. I cannot presume anyone engaging on this forum at the very least is ignorant of Christ and His Church.

You mention relativism. I agree that it does much harm. Expanding the concept of invincible ignorance into relativistic terms is wrong as well. No one needs to look carefully at every religion and philosophy in the world. Not when Truth resides in the Church.
 
Just because you know what Catholicism teaches doesn’t mean that you think it’s right. You could honestly think it’s ridiculous. Many people do. If you think that it is right, that is a different matter entirely, but it would make absolutely no sense at all to join a religion you think is false.
 
But in thinking it is false lies the error. To come to that decision means one knew of the Church, then explicitly rejects it. So when one is acting in the belief that the Church is false their culpability may be lessened, true. Yet, all that pales in comparison the fact that the original act of apostasy was real and they still live under that fault. You’re judging someone on the effects of their decision and not the causal action itself.

If I’m wrong, then happily that means more people are saved. If you and others who promulgate the broadest definition of invincible ignorance are wrong, then far more people are in danger of condemnation. And YOU share in that culpability.

I’ve said it before, that this over-extension of Church teaching nearly caused me to turn away from joining the Church. My family is Seventh-Day Adventist, and as such my decision is very difficult for them. I wish you and others would understand how many people would come to the Church if Catholics would try to be bold instead of nice.
 
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Whitney said:
I was listening to Catholic Answers live during my 13th hour at work today and the apologist seemed to insinuate that if you listen in and understand, then reject the church teachings you’re doomed. My question is when do I know I’ve crossed the proverbial line? Shouldn’t I stop thinking about and learning about the Catholic Church now while I might still be ahead? I feel like I have an advanced basic understanding of the church’s teaching (certainly more than most of my many American Catholic friends, whom I adore). So maybe in your church’s eyes I’m already beyond hope?
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No because you will answer for that attitude too. We have an obligation to inform our conscience, and so, as the Catechism teaches, feigned or intentional ignorance does not excuse, but instead, increases the culpability, i.e. the ignorance ceases to be invincible.

Why would you be beyond hope? Is this the “ignorance is bliss” thing?
 
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