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aloneinjax
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Now I totally get what you are saying. Wow, that is deep and does make one question how, or when, a baby does get his/her soul?
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Gorgias
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Well, the ‘how’ we know: the soul is created ‘immediately’ by God (that is, without the mediation of anyone else – in other words, the body of a baby is created through the mediation of his parents, who contribute the genetic material through which the physical body is created, but the soul is created directly by God, without anyone else’s mediation).
The ‘when’, however… is still something that the Church hasn’t defined dogmatically. She does say, however, that we cannot take untoward actions against a fetus, since we need to give all benefit of the doubt to the fetus that it has, in fact, been ensouled by God! Nevertheless, those who assert – using quotations from magisterial documents on other topics – that the Church has made a dogmatic assertion about the time of conception… well, they’re just mistaken.
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Memaw
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That may be a problem for you but I don’t believe it’s a problem for GOD! God Bless. Memaw
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mcpenguin5
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I believe that, as God is the Author of Life, only God has the right to decide when life begins and when life ends. We are presuming to read God’s mind if we try to make a decision about this based on logic alone. I think that it is best to regard this matter as making sure that we do not presume his intention by acting on our own interpretation in this.
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aloneinjax
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Amen!
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Gorgias
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That’s cute, but it doesn’t help us resolve the difficulty in explaining the ‘when’ of ensoulment…
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michaelhager
Guest
It is not difficult to understand that single cells can divide into two entities and become twins, they why does it become difficult to believe that a single soul could divide into two? Just look at the documented evidence of twins separated at birth having traits and personalities alike. Or the amazing similarity that twins raised together have with each other.
There is nothing messy or difficult about this, but rather simply another of God’s miracles.
(This is my own opinion, not based on scientific research or Church teachings, but based on my own observations in life and my own faith in the power of God to perform and create in ways we can never fathom while here on earth.)
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Memaw
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It is not something for us to “resolve”. How can us mere humans everThat’s cute, but it doesn’t help us resolve the difficulty in explaining the ‘when’ of ensoulment…
resolve God’s Mysteries? Trust God, HE knows! God Bless, memaw
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Memaw
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My husband and his brother were identical twins. Most people had lots of trouble telling them apart. For some reason, I could always tell. But if they were in the other room talking I could not tell which voice belonged to which twin. But believe me they did not share the same soul. I won’t go into any detail but take my word for it. Each had his own soul. I think God is capible of creating a soul for each baby, including conjoined twins. God Bless, Memaw
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Gorgias
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The answer “don’t worry about it” could be applied to many theological questions – “what is the Trinity?”, “how do we explain Jesus’ humanity and divinity?”, “how is Jesus present in the Eucharist?” – and yet, it’s reasonable to ask and answer these questions. Why is it unreasonable to ask about ensoulment, such that we should just let the question lie unanswered?
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Gorgias
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I don’t think that what Michael was suggesting was that twins ‘share’ the same soul, any more than one might suggest that they share the same body!michaelhager:
believe me [my brother and his twin] did not share the same soul. I won’t go into any detail but take my word for it. Each had his own soul. I think God is capible of creating a soul for each baby, including conjoined twins.
Yet, Michael’s suggestion seems difficult to reconcile, at least on a metaphysical level. Something that is physical can be ‘split’, since there’s stuff to divide. (In other words, physical beings are ‘complex’ – they’re made up of components. You can divide components.) Souls, on the other hand, aren’t complex, they’re ‘simple’. (That is, they are integral; you can’t look at a soul and say “this part here is the seat of wisdom, and that part there is the conscience.”) Therefore, from a philosophical point of view, there’s no way to ‘divide’ a soul.
It’s a reasonable way to attempt to resolve the question; it’s analogous to something familiar to us, and it provides a clean and simple way explanation. Unfortunately, though, it seems that it just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.
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Memaw
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I didn’t say it was unreasonable to ask, and I didn’t say “don’t worry about it”. I might ask, “Why so many stars in the sky?” but that don’t mean I’m gonna get an answer or ever be able to count them. Only God knows! Our human minds will never be able to answer all our questions. So as I said. Trust God. HE knows. I love God’s Mysteries, but I try to understand things that come along in ever day life, things I may be able to do something about or help someone with, if all I can do is pray for them, I thank ". Smarter and Holier people than I have tried and no answers yet! God Bless, MemawThe answer “don’t worry about it” could be applied to many theological questions – “what is the Trinity?”, “how do we explain Jesus’ humanity and divinity?”, “how is Jesus present in the Eucharist?” – and yet, it’s reasonable to ask and answer these questions. Why is it unreasonable to ask about ensoulment, such that we should just let the question lie unanswered?
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Memaw
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I assume a soul divided in half would be two of the same thing. Souls are not material so they can’t be divided. God Bless, Memaw
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Gorgias
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True enough… and if the question were “do twins have distinct souls?” then I’d say that your answer works just fine: “yes – trust God, he knows what He’s doing.” But, that wasn’t the question – it was when ensoulment happens. That’s a question that doesn’t allow the answer “trust me”, 'cause that answer really just means “stop asking the question”…
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Memaw
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I think I said about the same thing to when ensoulment happens. And why doesn’t it allow the answer TRUST GOD?? Do you know the answer??? I doubt anyone else does. God really does know what HE is doing, even if we don’t !!! You can keep asking all you want and if you find the answer, let me know. God Bless. MemawTrue enough… and if the question were “do twins have distinct souls?” then I’d say that your answer works just fine: “yes – trust God, he knows what He’s doing.” But, that wasn’t the question – it was when ensoulment happens. That’s a question that doesn’t allow the answer “trust me”, 'cause that answer really just means “stop asking the question”…
P.S. I couldn’t find the word “ensoulment” in Fr, Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary
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raulpnt
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This is a discussion which very much fascinated Augustine. He was immensely interested in the question regarding whether or not life was existent for humans before the womb. He never dared to come to a definitive conclusion about this matter throughout any of the course of his works. He believed the human mind was ultimately incapable of deriving any such truth in response to this question. We can observe in book I of the Confessions a moment where he directly inquires about this matter in his prayers to God as he writes to Him with the utmost fear and reverence. He admits the possibility of this question being one which he is unworthy of knowing the answer of:
“Tell me, God, tell Your suppliant, in mercy to Your poor wretch, tell me whether there was some period of my life, now dead and gone, which preceded my infancy? Or is this period that which I spent in my mother’s womb? On that matter also I have learnt something, and I myself have seen pregnant women. What was going on before that, my sweetness, my God? Was I anywhere, or any sort of person? I have no one able to tell me that–neither my father nor my mother nor the experiences of others nor my own memory. But You may smile at me for putting these questions. Your command that I praise You and confess You may be limited to that which I know.”
God may very well be smiling upon us as we ponder upon the mysteries of His incredible creation through asking such things.
“Tell me, God, tell Your suppliant, in mercy to Your poor wretch, tell me whether there was some period of my life, now dead and gone, which preceded my infancy? Or is this period that which I spent in my mother’s womb? On that matter also I have learnt something, and I myself have seen pregnant women. What was going on before that, my sweetness, my God? Was I anywhere, or any sort of person? I have no one able to tell me that–neither my father nor my mother nor the experiences of others nor my own memory. But You may smile at me for putting these questions. Your command that I praise You and confess You may be limited to that which I know.”
God may very well be smiling upon us as we ponder upon the mysteries of His incredible creation through asking such things.
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Memaw
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My sentiments exactly and I never knew that about St. Augustine. Only he puts it in such beautiful words. We are not capable of understanding the Mind of God. I love the beauty of HIS Mysteries. If we could figure out everything about HIM, we would think we were pretty smart. God Bless, MemawThis is a discussion which very much fascinated Augustine. He was immensely interested in the question regarding whether or not life was existent for humans before the womb. He never dared to come to a definitive conclusion about this matter throughout any of the course of his works. He believed the human mind was ultimately incapable of deriving any such truth in response to this question. We can observe in book I of the Confessions a moment where he directly inquires about this matter in his prayers to God as he writes to Him with the utmost fear and reverence. He admits the possibility of this question being one which he is unworthy of knowing the answer of:
“Tell me, God, tell Your suppliant, in mercy to Your poor wretch, tell me whether there was some period of my life, now dead and gone, which preceded my infancy? Or is this period that which I spent in my mother’s womb? On that matter also I have learnt something, and I myself have seen pregnant women. What was going on before that, my sweetness, my God? Was I anywhere, or any sort of person? I have no one able to tell me that–neither my father nor my mother nor the experiences of others nor my own memory. But You may smile at me for putting these questions. Your command that I praise You and confess You may be limited to that which I know.”
God may very well be smiling upon us as we ponder upon the mysteries of His incredible creation through asking such things.
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michaelhager
Guest
i don’t for a minute mean to imply that anyone shares a soul, but identical twins start out as one entity, a single fertilized egg which at some point separates itself into two when dividing in its natural progression into a baby. I believe that the soul is created, bestowed, given or otherwise present the moment the egg is fertilized. In response to another post above which postulates that this is problematic, I simply meant to say that it is not. If God can cause the cells to split into two bodies, he can also cause the soul to split into separate souls, to occupy those bodies.
We will never know on this earth how it is done. My intent was only to say that God does something and it is not messy or problematic. It simply is. Each twin has his own body and his own soul. We know not how that happened, but only that it was in God’s plan.
It’s what we call faith.
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aloneinjax
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Does this refer to fraternal twins also? I really am not understanding this entire debate. I believe we just trust God. He knows what he is doing.
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JimG
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Fraternal twins originate from two separate zygotes, conceived separately, so the question does not arise.
With regard to monozygotic twins, it would seem to me that souls do not divide, but God can certainly create another distinct soul when they separate to become distinct twins.
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