When does free will end?

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Newsy

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I had a conversation with my Aunt today. The subject of “once saved, always saved” came up. Her opinion is that salvation, once given, can never be lost. This idea got me thinking…:hmmm: Can someone choose to reject the gift God has given them? Could somebody turn from God and reject the Grace and Mercy that He offers? If OSAS holds true, then it seems one would no longer have a choice in the matter. It seems that the person’s free will would be null and void on this subject. Does somebody lose their free will to choose God, once they are saved?

I pose this question to the non-Catholics, I understand and fully accept the Catholic Church’s teaching on this matter. I pose the question to open some honest conversation and understand the OSAS point of view better.
 
Newsy said:
I had a conversation with my Aunt today. The subject of “once saved, always saved” came up. Her opinion is that salvation, once given, can never be lost. This idea got me thinking…:hmmm: Can someone choose to reject the gift God has given them? Could somebody turn from God and reject the Grace and Mercy that He offers? If OSAS holds true, then it seems one would no longer have a choice in the matter. It seems that the person’s free will would be null and void on this subject. Does somebody lose their free will to choose God, once they are saved?

I pose this question to the non-Catholics, I understand and fully accept the Catholic Church’s teaching on this matter. I pose the question to open some honest conversation and understand the OSAS point of view better.
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it doesnt work like that in the real world why would it work that way with God. it is entirely possible that we could lose our salvation just like we could utterly destroy a gift someone gves us. As catholics we believe an unforgiven mortal sin will forever separate us from God.
 
OSAS essentially pits God to the test by daring Him to save you - no matter how dead your faith is. Well, they counter, you were never saved in the first place. What utter nonsense! God does not make His Kingdom a lottery, a coin toss, or impossible to obtain.

Jesus said, “He who perseveres to the end will be saved” As a certain former Priest has rather famously said, “You are not saved until your butt is in heaven.”
 
I’m sure there are others who can discuss this more articulately than I, but let’s see where this synaptic misfire lands, shall we?

I was raised Pentecostal and the once-saved-always-saved argument it a little more nuanced than most give it credit. My understanding (which is limited) is that once one accepts Christ’s salvation God will not take it from you – it’s a gift. Of course, it can later be rejected, but God hasn’t taken, it’s the individual who has chosen to no longer accept that gift.

Now, the original idea was proposed by Calvin and it informs his thoughts on predestination. However, I don’t think most denominations that believe in once saved always saved necessarily subscribe to the idea that God has already chosen who will receive salvation and who will not. I think where these denominations are concerned, they believe if one has truly accepted Christ as one’s savior, then one is so enraptured with God’s love and mercy and is rather unlikely to want to leave.

I don’t know; anyone else want to give it a try?

P.S. I struggled with the once-saved-always-saved idea as a Pentecostal, as much as I do with the idea of the Trinity as an Episcopalian. I guess some things are just faith.
 
po18guy said:
OSAS essentially pits God to the test by daring Him to save you - no matter how dead your faith is. Well, they counter, you were never saved in the first place. What utter nonsense! God does not make His Kingdom a lottery, a coin toss, or impossible to obtain.

Jesus said, “He who perseveres to the end will be saved” As a certain former Priest has rather famously said, “You are not saved until your butt is in heaven.”
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the protestant understanding of salvation is significantly flawed
 
Newsy said:
I had a conversation with my Aunt today. The subject of “once saved, always saved” came up. Her opinion is that salvation, once given, can never be lost. This idea got me thinking…:hmmm: Can someone choose to reject the gift God has given them? Could somebody turn from God and reject the Grace and Mercy that He offers? If OSAS holds true, then it seems one would no longer have a choice in the matter. It seems that the person’s free will would be null and void on this subject. Does somebody lose their free will to choose God, once they are saved?

I pose this question to the non-Catholics, I understand and fully accept the Catholic Church’s teaching on this matter. I pose the question to open some honest conversation and understand the OSAS point of view better.
Click to expand...
Lucifer a Seraphim Angel (spirit) presided in heaven with a perfect will fell from grace, Adam who possessed a body and soul in the Garden of Eden from his free will and freedom of choice fell from grace.

OSAS falsely invents a god who becomes a dicatator who appears to remove freewill from man, when God originally gifted man with a freewill.

St Paul teaches against OSAS by teaching the first century church “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”

Currently the OSAS’vd protestant doctrine has taking on new and different defined doctrines from different protestant denominations apart from the original reformers of protestantism.

Today a true reformed protestant OSASA’vd does not hold to the same doctrine of OSAS’vd held by most protestant Evangelicals.

When free will ends for man, judgement has come to man. thus far only the Kingdom of God is at hand, while man remains in his freewill to chose life or death. Any OSAS’vd doctrine cannot save so long as freewill remains.

Peace be with you
 
Newsy said:
I had a conversation with my Aunt today. The subject of “once saved, always saved” came up. Her opinion is that salvation, once given, can never be lost. This idea got me thinking…:hmmm: Can someone choose to reject the gift God has given them? Could somebody turn from God and reject the Grace and Mercy that He offers? If OSAS holds true, then it seems one would no longer have a choice in the matter. It seems that the person’s free will would be null and void on this subject. Does somebody lose their free will to choose God, once they are saved?

I pose this question to the non-Catholics, I understand and fully accept the Catholic Church’s teaching on this matter. I pose the question to open some honest conversation and understand the OSAS point of view better.
Click to expand...
It would be so nice if once we were saved we were always saved. But if you think about it, if God took away our free will, why live? What would be the purpose of living?

We are put here to be tested and tempted the way God was tested and tempted. God wants us to truly love him and come to him on our own free will.

When we sin we lose God, we separate ourself from him, we can either continue to be separated from him, or repent confess, and be back to his good grace.

Even sin, as much as I hate to admit it, can show us something good sometimes. When we are in a state of Grace, we are happy, want to live, have no fear, etc.

But when we sin we have the opposite, hate in our heart, jealousy, fear, anxiety, etc. Sometimes the good, not that sin is good, but the good that can come out of sin is sometimes you never know what you have until you lose it.

Then when you get back into a state of Grace you can really appreciate what free will truly is. And what a great thing Christ did by giving us the Sacraments to bring us back to his grace when we fail. And once you are out of his grace, you can relate to the hopeless, etc, and show them what the free will to choose God can really do.

Just another way God can make a good out of a bad. And why I think there is a reason that we can fall out of grace. God always has lessons for us, especially when we make bad choices.
 
I agree rinnie

The ever patient Lord who forgives all. All that is required is honesty, honest evaluation of the self through the lense of the Church and constant effort. Change doesn’t come easy, often its accompanied with a Cross. Especially where Vice and Habit is concerned.

Look as Mose’s and the number of times he had to approach Pharoh? Same effort is required by each in our efforts in communion with God.

Look at Job, never does he once blame the Lord for the position he finds himself in. Look at Jesus and His temptation.

I forget which Saint stated this but…“There is no Communion without Sacrifice.” Its the message of the Cross

No end to Free Will, you end first. You strive and continue to, as St Paul so clearly writes, you finish the race. Winning pretty isn’t required, finishing is. And of course this certainly isn’t an exuse for repeated violations of the Lords word.

Yes is comes easier to some, if this not your path you must view this as a Blessing. Not an excuse to surrender the Will.

“We always find that those who walked closest to Christ were those who had to
bear the greatest trials.” (St. Teresa of Avila)
 
GaryTaylor said:
I agree rinnie

The ever patient Lord who forgives all. All that is required is honesty, honest evaluation of the self through the lense of the Church and constant effort. Change doesn’t come easy, often its accompanied with a Cross. Especially where Vice and Habit is concerned.

Look as Mose’s and the number of times he had to approach Pharoh? Same effort is required by each in our efforts in communion with God.

Look at Job, never does he once blame the Lord for the position he finds himself in. Look at Jesus and His temptation.

I forget which Saint stated this but…“There is no Communion without Sacrifice.” Its the message of the Cross

No end to Free Will, you end first. You strive and continue to, as St Paul so clearly writes, you finish the race. Winning pretty isn’t required, finishing is. And of course this certainly isn’t an exuse for repeated violations of the Lords word.

Yes is comes easier to some, if this not your path you must view this as a Blessing. Not an excuse to surrender the Will.

“We always find that those who walked closest to Christ were those who had to
bear the greatest trials.” (St. Teresa of Avila)
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👍
 
I think OSAS can make sense logically when you read selected scripture, but it doesn’t make practical sense. When we find Christ, we don’t turn into robots that are perfectly obedient.

I find the concept of OSAS to lead me away from Christ. If I believed my salvation was guaranteed, I would lose my motivation
  • do I really have to repent and ask for forgiveness?
  • what commandement do I really have to obey?
Since none of the calvanists I’ve met show perfect obedience, I’d bet my money on none of them being saved. They are falling for a Devil’s promise.
 
Newsy said:
I had a conversation with my Aunt today. The subject of “once saved, always saved” came up. Her opinion is that salvation, once given, can never be lost. This idea got me thinking…:hmmm: Can someone choose to reject the gift God has given them? Could somebody turn from God and reject the Grace and Mercy that He offers? If OSAS holds true, then it seems one would no longer have a choice in the matter. It seems that the person’s free will would be null and void on this subject. Does somebody lose their free will to choose God, once they are saved?

I pose this question to the non-Catholics, I understand and fully accept the Catholic Church’s teaching on this matter. I pose the question to open some honest conversation and understand the OSAS point of view better.
Click to expand...
Just from a Lutheran POV, if I may. The question really is when free will starts. We reject the idea of OSAS becasue it actually takes free will away. Receiving faith comes by grace, not by a choice. Free will starts with the ability to actually reject grace.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Just from a Lutheran POV, if I may. The question really is when free will starts. We reject the idea of OSAS becasue it actually takes free will away. Receiving faith comes by grace, not by a choice. Free will starts with the ability to actually reject grace.

Jon
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Hi Jon, Are you getting ready for summer? Its been a long time comming huh!😃

I agree with what you said and If I may add not only being able to reject Grace, but also being able to use the Grace that you were given.

Free will can go either way. God gives us everything we need, We can choose to accept Grace or reject grace. But as we are taught the more grace we use the more we are able to get.😃
 
=rinnie;9278943]Hi Jon, Are you getting ready for summer? Its been a long time comming huh!😃
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More than you know, rinnie, more than you know. 😛
I agree with what you said and If I may add not only being able to reject Grace, but also being able to use the Grace that you were given.
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Agreed. There is an expectation that we grow in His grace.
Free will can go either way. God gives us everything we need, We can choose to accept Grace or reject grace. But as we are taught the more grace we use the more we are able to get.😃
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Being the good Lutheran that I am (:D), I wouldn’t use the term “accept”, but instead “receive”.

Jon
 
I was hoping to hear a defense of OSAS by somebody who believes it, maybe it will still happen.🤷 Here’s another question.

Does anyone know where the idea of OSAS started? I was raised Presbyterian, they refer to “predestination”, either you are “chosen” or not. I am familiar with the Lutheran stance, seems more in line with the Church teaching. I think that the Methodists believe that salvation can be lost. So where/when did this idea crop up?
 
Newsy said:
I was hoping to hear a defense of OSAS by somebody who believes it, maybe it will still happen.🤷 Here’s another question.

Does anyone know where the idea of OSAS started? I was raised Presbyterian, they refer to “predestination”, either you are “chosen” or not. I am familiar with the Lutheran stance, seems more in line with the Church teaching. I think that the Methodists believe that salvation can be lost. So where/when did this idea crop up?
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My understanding is that its roots are in the Calvinist perseverence of saints, but hopefully someone who holds the view will respond.

Jon
 
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