When Does Traditionalism Cross the Line?

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I consider myself a Traditionalist. I like the Latin Mass, NO and Tridentine. I love Gregorian Chant. I also love the Church as a whole. My question concerns those “Catholics” who go so far as to say that the papcy is invalid, the new mass in invalid, etc. . .hat is the exact point at which conservatism is crossed and heresy begins?

Is it the people who act more on emotion, and fear, and emotion rather than those who use faith and logic together?

These people, the Sedavacantists, the SSPX, and numerous others, often give new converts false ideas. How can we help to stay Traditional, and yet still be loyal to Rome-Eternal and Modern?

Any thoughts are welcome.
 
Friend_Of_Rome said:
I consider myself a Traditionalist. I like the Latin Mass, NO and Tridentine. I love Gregorian Chant. I also love the Church as a whole. My question concerns those “Catholics” who go so far as to say that the papcy is invalid, the new mass in invalid, etc. . .hat is the exact point at which conservatism is crossed and heresy begins?

Is it the people who act more on emotion, and fear, and emotion rather than those who use faith and logic together?

These people, the Sedavacantists, the SSPX, and numerous others, often give new converts false ideas. How can we help to stay Traditional, and yet still be loyal to Rome-Eternal and Modern?

Any thoughts are welcome.
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Please, do not lump the SSPX in the same group as the Sedecavtantists…

The latter are not traditional and would qualify for the term “traditionalists” as some on this forum like to liberally apply.

I think Novus Ordo abuses, banal Masses and quasi-protestantism in the majority of Catholic Churches in the west today give converts a worse/more false idea of the faith than the SSPX do. One only has to read Scott Hahn’s conversion story to know this is true.

And no… I am not condoning the actions of the SSPX.
 
Do you kneel during the Agnus Dei? (read GIRM)
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In the US, the GIRM specifies that the faithful kneel after, not *during *the *Agnus Dei *(unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise).

tee
 
Thank you, Tee, for the clarification. I always see very devout church-goers kneeling. It’s reverent, sure, but it is not really necessary.

I didn’t know if I was reading correctly or not :rolleyes:
 
I’m confused as well.
When I do my daily Eucharistic Adoration, I am compelled to kneel and prostrate myself, but I stop when the pain from kneeling for so long takes away from prayer. So I do sit, but why does sitting in the presence of the Eucharist something that seems to be triumphed in the poll?
:confused:
tee_eff_em said:
In the US, the GIRM specifies that the faithful kneel after, not *during *the *Agnus Dei *(unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise).

tee
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So would it be wrong to kneel during it? Would it be more correct to ignore the GIRM and be reverent or would it be more correct to submit to what we are told to do?
What is the Traditionalist opinion?
:confused:
 
tee_eff_em said:
In the US, the GIRM specifies that the faithful kneel after, not *during *the *Agnus Dei *(unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise).

tee
Click to expand...
So would it be wrong to kneel during it? Would it be more correct to ignore the GIRM and be reverent or would it be more correct to submit to what we are told to do?
What is the Traditionalist opinion?
:confused:
 
I must say I think most of the options do not specifically apply to Traditionalists, but rather to all orthodox Catholics, including so-called conservative Catholics (people who mostly attend the Novus Ordo, but are also attached to the beauty of the liturgy, including incense, chant and vestments, and Catholic spiritual practices like the Rosary or Adoration - that’s the kind of Catholic I would consider myself to be).

I clicked on “try to seek out a Tridentine Mass”, because I think that’s what essentially “makes” a Traditionalist. You could also have included “avoid Novus Ordo Masses if possible”, which would be the “next step” for a Traditionalist. Then would have come “consider the Novus Ordo flawed” and “consider the NO invalid”, where at least the second clearly crosses a line.

I think such options would have come closer to actually defining a “Traditionalist” than questions which merely state that a person doesn’t think the Catholic Church started out (culturally, philosophically, traditionally, theologically) in AD 1965… 😉
 
Friend_Of_Rome said:
Thank you, Tee, for the clarification. I always see very devout church-goers kneeling. It’s reverent, sure, but it is not really necessary.

I didn’t know if I was reading correctly or not :rolleyes:
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You’re right, it’s not necessary, but what happened to the term “God-fearing”?
 
Friend_Of_Rome said:
I consider myself a Traditionalist. I like the Latin Mass, NO and Tridentine. I love Gregorian Chant. I also love the Church as a whole. My question concerns those “Catholics” who go so far as to say that the papcy is invalid, the new mass in invalid, etc. . .hat is the exact point at which conservatism is crossed and heresy begins?

Is it the people who act more on emotion, and fear, and emotion rather than those who use faith and logic together?

These people, the Sedavacantists, the SSPX, and numerous others, often give new converts false ideas. How can we help to stay Traditional, and yet still be loyal to Rome-Eternal and Modern?

Any thoughts are welcome.
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There is a difference between heresy and schism. Generally the problem with some traditionalists is schism, or rejection of proper authority, rather than heresy, or rejection of defined dogmas of the Church.
A traditionalist is moving towards schism when he rejects his own parish for a more conservative one. However since in many places the parish system has largely broken down, it is not necessarily a very serious split. He takes further steps if he refuses to attend the wrong sort of Mass, or associates with or joins groups like SSPX.

When a traditionalist commits heresy it is usually a rationalisation to try to shore up his rejection of Church authority. If you try hard enough you can find grounds for rejecting Popes or documents or councils you don’t like, whilst not rejecting the whole idea of Popes, documents, and councils, like the Protestants do. Needless to say, the reasons are usually specious and therefore heretical.
 
Freshman88 said:
So would it be wrong to kneel during it? Would it be more correct to ignore the GIRM and be reverent or would it be more correct to submit to what we are told to do?
What is the Traditionalist opinion?
:confused:
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Mass isn’t the place to make points. Normally you should do what the rest of the congregation do. If you think that the local custom is a bad one, make representations after the Mass is over.
 
Checked almost all and it would be all but I do not have the time to read all Chuch docs but I embrace them on the things I need to, God gave me a reason too so after all we should not behave as soul-less robots during Mass. Sometimes I kneel for the Agnus Dei sometimes I stand.
Liberal Traditionalist??
 
All, but two:

I wouldn’t seek out a parish with a Tridentine, though I’d be fine with it if my parish began offering one. Also, I avoid liberal parishes.
 
Do you prefer Gregorian Chant over other music?

At mass, yes.

Do you receive Communion on your tongue?

Generally, yes. However, I often attend a local German church where the Host is so thick and heavy that I receive in the hand. There is no paten used, and I worry about it falling off.

Do you read and embrace all Church documents?

I confess that I don’t/haven’t read all of them, but I try to keep current. Sometimes they can be a little hard to understand, but I always accept the Church’s authority in matters regarding faith and morals.

Do you try to find a Church with Tridentine Mass?

If I had a good parish with a reverent, beautiful NO I would not drive out of my way to attend a TLM. But I would definitely seek one out if I was in a parish where the mass was abusive or just really ugly.

Do you like to atend Benedictions?

I’ve never had the chance to, but would if I could.

Do you like to sit in Eucharistic Adoration?

Do I like to? Hmmm … I go to Adoration once a week as a way to show God that I love him. But I confess that I have a problem with attention and I always fight the urge to go to sleep.

Do you kneel during the Agnus Dei? (read GIRM)

I have always knelt after the Agnus Dei was finished; this has been customary in every parish I’ve attended.

Do you refuse to attend a Liberal parish?

If I have a choice, yes. Sometimes I haven’t been so lucky and have had to attend simply to fulfill my Sunday obligation. 😦
 
I think the question of this thread rests on wrong presumption.

If we define traditionalists as those who practice all the above (Benediction, Gregorian Chants, Latin, communion on the tongue, etc), these were all there before so it means those who abandoned these are the ones who ‘crossed the line’.

This thread should be about " When does abandoning Traditional Catholicism cross the line?".
 
Chancellare said:
I think the question of this thread rests on wrong presumption.

If we define traditionalists as those who practice all the above (Benediction, Gregorian Chants, Latin, communion on the tongue, etc), these were all there before so it means those who abandoned these are the ones who ‘crossed the line’.

This thread should be about " When does abandoning Traditional Catholicism cross the line?".
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👍
 
I checked all but the last option. I avoid liberal parishes - however I would never refuse to go to mass at such a parish - if I had no other way of fulfilling my Sunday Obligation.
 
CatholicNick said:
Please, do not lump the SSPX in the same group as the Sedecavtantists…

The latter are not traditional and would qualify for the term “traditionalists” as some on this forum like to liberally apply.
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By “others” you have to include the administrators here who have allowed Sedevacantism to be discussed as a legitimate topic in the Traditional Catholic forum (and only there), at least for now. There is obviously a relationship.

I myself would answer the question that the line is drawn when one affiliates oneself formal with any group or church that is outside the visible authority structure of the Church, be they SSPX or Sedevacantist.
 
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