When Does Traditionalism Cross the Line?

[tee_eff_em]

Thank you, Tee, for the clarification. I always see very devout church-goers kneeling. It’s reverent, sure, but it is not really necessary.

Devout they may be, but my :twocents: below.

ISo would it be wrong to kneel during it? Would it be more correct to ignore the GIRM and be reverent or would it be more correct to submit to what we are told to do?
What is the Traditionalist opinion?

Speaking only for myself (who does not even know if he self identifies as Traditionalist), I am of the opinion that, other things being equal, there is value in obedience and submission to the lawful authority.

:twocents:
tee

 

[rlg94086]

I must say I think most of the options do not specifically apply to Traditionalists, but rather to all orthodox Catholics, including so-called conservative Catholics (people who mostly attend the Novus Ordo, but are also attached to the beauty of the liturgy, including incense, chant and vestments, and Catholic spiritual practices like the Rosary or Adoration - that’s the kind of Catholic I would consider myself to be).

That’s me too…I tried to ask this on another thread, but I was ignored. Thanks for clarifying. I am not a Traditionalist, but I do prefer Latin used for common prayers of the St Paul VI liturgy (as the Pope recently wrote), incence, chant, vestments, etc.

I clicked on “try to seek out a Tridentine Mass”, because I think that’s what essentially “makes” a Traditionalist. You could also have included “avoid Novus Ordo Masses if possible”, which would be the “next step” for a Traditionalist. Then would have come “consider the Novus Ordo flawed” and “consider the NO invalid”, where at least the second clearly crosses a line.

I think such options would have come closer to actually defining a “Traditionalist” than questions which merely state that a person doesn’t think the Catholic Church started out (culturally, philosophically, traditionally, theologically) in AD 1965…

I selected all but “seeking out TLM.” I haven’t been to one, so I may seek one just to see what it is like (I’ve only seen video), but I don’t actively seek them for my weekly Mass. Also, one clarification on “refuse to attend Liberal parishes.” I do attend them when I am traveling, if I don’t know the nature of the parishes in the area. When I am in the Bay Area, where I used to live, I go to a conservative parish, but in other areas (Japan, Netherlands, etc.) I wouldn’t know.

 

[rlg94086]

Devout they may be, but my :twocents: below.

Speaking only for myself (who does not even know if he self identifies as Traditionalist), I am of the opinion that, other things being equal, there is value in obedience and submission to the lawful authority.

:twocents:
tee

I agree with you on this, tee. I understand the Bishop is allowed to make the determination of “kneel or don’t kneel” according to the GIRM. Our parish kneels. If I’m visiting a parish that does not kneel at that point, I don’t. I will typically kneel in prayer after receiving though.

If I know something is blatantly against the GIRM, I will not “go along” with the locals, otherwise I assume the they are submitting to their Bishop.

 

[Friend_Of_Rome]

A question-

Recently, my diocese remodeled our cathedral. It’s very very beautiful, very awe-inspiring, however, the choir sits sits directly in front of the tabernacle, with their backs to it, and thus, on top of the old altar. Also, the altar area is lower than the choir area 10 feet behind. I know what the GIRM says, but the bishop says he’s completely justified.

 

[Genesis315]

A question-

Recently, my diocese remodeled our cathedral. It’s very very beautiful, very awe-inspiring, however, the choir sits sits directly in front of the tabernacle, with their backs to it, and thus, on top of the old altar. Also, the altar area is lower than the choir area 10 feet behind. I know what the GIRM says, but the bishop says he’s completely justified.

A higher authority overrules a lower one. If the GIRM says this is illicit, the bishop must obey it.

 

[water]

there is value in obedience and submission to the lawful authority.
:twocents:
tee

We’ve found examples of obedience and submission in many Saints.

 

[Friend_Of_Rome]

A higher authority overrules a lower one. If the GIRM says this is illicit, the bishop must obey it.

That’s perfect. But how can the members of the diocese (the lower authority) chnage this error of the bisjop (higher authority)?

 

[chevalier]

I don’t necessarily prefer Gregorian chant over other music. Normally yes, but there’s room for other music. I prefer to receive on the tongue, although if everyone receives in the hand, I will not normally stand out. I don’t think in-hand lay EMHEs are even prepared for on the tongue reception. I read Church documents when I need to, when I’m intressed etc, but I don’t go out of my way to find this or that every day to accumulate more and more ecclesiastic knowledge. It’s extremely hard to find Tridentine mass here - our pauline masses tend to be reverent and we don’t have a restore-order movement here. “Attend Benedictions?” I’m lost… What’s meant by that? I like to kneel in adoration. I kneel during Agnus Dei. I wouldn’t go to mass with abuses or where liberal priests preach or ministries are inconsistent with the teach of the Church. I would report them in a serious case.

When does it cross the line? When people are being disdained for not sharing some traditionalist views. When the person will skip Sunday mass rather than go to pauline mass… This kind of thing.

 

[Friend_Of_Rome]

I find that very many people do not know what a benediction is. Interesting.

Then again, it’s not offered everywhere, adn I am privelidged to have it at my parish.

I agree with your point of when Traditionalism crosses the line. It’s when it becomes too flashy, too “affected,” too distracting.

Any other ideas?

 

[MikeDunphy]

… one clarification on “refuse to attend Liberal parishes.” I do attend them when I am traveling, if I don’t know the nature of the parishes in the area. When I am in the Bay Area, where I used to live, I go to a conservative parish, but in other areas (Japan, Netherlands, etc.) I wouldn’t know.

Masstimes.org is a good resource for finding parishes where you will be travelling. It is better for the United States than for elsewhere, but they are working on that.

I usually find the local parishes by zip code, eliminate those with half an hour or less of regularly scheduled confession time, then if there is still a choice, look for parishes with an hour or more set aside each week for confession, devotions such as the rosary and Eucharistic adoration, and beautiful websites that look like they were developed by people with a love for Christ and His Church.

You can do much better than just randomly picking the first parish you find. Other people may have other criteria, but these work for me.

 

[Genesis315]

That’s perfect. But how can the members of the diocese (the lower authority) chnage this error of the bisjop (higher authority)?

Hmmm, I’ve never done it. Once you have charitably and respectfully brought it to his attention, the next thing would be to contact the papal nuncio. I have no clue how that is done

 

[BobP123]

I don’t necessarily prefer Gregorian chant over other music. Normally yes, but there’s room for other music. I prefer to receive on the tongue, although if everyone receives in the hand, I will not normally stand out. I don’t think in-hand lay EMHEs are even prepared for on the tongue reception. I read Church documents when I need to, when I’m intressed etc, but I don’t go out of my way to find this or that every day to accumulate more and more ecclesiastic knowledge. It’s extremely hard to find Tridentine mass here - our pauline masses tend to be reverent and we don’t have a restore-order movement here. “Attend Benedictions?” I’m lost… What’s meant by that? I like to kneel in adoration. I kneel during Agnus Dei. I wouldn’t go to mass with abuses or where liberal priests preach or ministries are inconsistent with the teach of the Church. I would report them in a serious case.

When does it cross the line? When people are being disdained for not sharing some traditionalist views. When the person will skip Sunday mass rather than go to pauline mass… This kind of thing.

Well, according to Cardinal Mahony, they’re not too many of them anyway. So not to worry.

 

[BobP123]

That’s perfect. But how can the members of the diocese (the lower authority) chnage this error of the bisjop (higher authority)?

I believe there is such a thing as a collection plate?

Yes, I know you have to contribute to the support of the Catholic Church, but that money doesn’t have to go to the bishop that supports when is not fully accepted by the Vatican. In fact, isn’t it a sin to support such scandal?

 

[Chancellare]

I find that very many people do not know what a benediction is. Interesting.

Then again, it’s not offered everywhere, adn I am privelidged to have it at my parish.

I agree with your point of when Traditionalism crosses the line. It’s when it becomes too flashy, too “affected,” too distracting.

Any other ideas?

I can’t imagine myself being labeled as traditional or modernist or what not just because I follow all the rich Sacred Tradition of RCC.

Take for example Benediction: I can’t imagine how it can become too flashy or distracting. (?)

 

[rlg94086]

I do that already (and support Masstimes.org financially, so they can continue to improve); however, there is a limit to what you can determine based on websites…especially in Japan and The Netherlands.

(and may I add, especially since I don’t speak either language - their websites are not in English.)

Within the US it is easier and luckily I am rarely travelling in the US on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.

Masstimes.org is a good resource for finding parishes where you will be travelling. It is better for the United States than for elsewhere, but they are working on that.

I usually find the local parishes by zip code, eliminate those with half an hour or less of regularly scheduled confession time, then if there is still a choice, look for parishes with an hour or more set aside each week for confession, devotions such as the rosary and Eucharistic adoration, and beautiful websites that look like they were developed by people with a love for Christ and His Church.

You can do much better than just randomly picking the first parish you find. Other people may have other criteria, but these work for me.

 

[Chancellare]

I do that already (and support Masstimes.org financially, so they can continue to improve); however, there is a limit to what you can determine based on websites…especially in Japan and The Netherlands.

(and may I add, especially since I don’t speak either language - their websites are not in English.)

Within the US it is easier and luckily I am rarely travelling in the US on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.

If your situation is affected by travelling, I understand where you’re coming from.
I too, lived in Holland for a few years There are English masses in Amsterdam(middle), Maastricht(south)and Groningen(north). The one in Groningen we helped establish during our stay there. I’m almost sure we can find something to help you in Tokyo (if you can PM me).

I also learned that Opus Dei have centers in almost all major cities worldwide who can help any Catholic find Masses and Priests to talk to, especially for English Masses.

 

[rlg94086]

If your situation is affected by travelling, I understand where you’re coming from.
I too, lived in Holland for a few years There are English masses in Amsterdam(middle), Maastricht(south)and Groningen(north). The one in Groningen we helped establish during our stay there. I’m almost sure we can find something to help you in Tokyo (if you can PM me).

I also learned that Opus Dei have centers in almost all major cities worldwide who can help any Catholic find Masses and Priests to talk to, especially for English Masses.

Thanks Chancellare. I have PM’d you. I didn’t know Opus Dei could help in that way…thought I was on my own.

 

[Chancellare]

Thanks Chancellare. I have PM’d you. I didn’t know Opus Dei could help in that way…thought I was on my own.

Just PMd you back with potentially helpful details in your area in Holland.

I was also pleasantly surprised about Opus Dei. Like when I was in Singapore, they helped me find the most appropriate English Mass within distance from my Hotel.

Perhaps many people were seeing too much movies and reading fiction(?)

 

[Friend_Of_Rome]

I believe there is such a thing as a collection plate?

Yes, I know you have to contribute to the support of the Catholic Church, but that money doesn’t have to go to the bishop that supports when is not fully accepted by the Vatican. In fact, isn’t it a sin to support such scandal?

It is indeed. however, my diocese has a program that if the specific parish doesn’t raise the “siggested funds”, the money is automatically taken out from their account. Not very charitable.

It’s a great diocese, but sometimes here the Church drifts a litle bit.

 

[Ad_Orientum]

I consider myself a Traditionalist. I like the Latin Mass, NO and Tridentine. I love Gregorian Chant. I also love the Church as a whole. My question concerns those “Catholics” who go so far as to say that the papcy is invalid, the new mass in invalid, etc. . .hat is the exact point at which conservatism is crossed and heresy begins?

Is it the people who act more on emotion, and fear, and emotion rather than those who use faith and logic together?

These people, the Sedavacantists, the SSPX, and numerous others, often give new converts false ideas. How can we help to stay Traditional, and yet still be loyal to Rome-Eternal and Modern?

Any thoughts are welcome.

You ought to not mention the Society with the Sedes.

They are very, very different.

And just a quick point, Rome is always traditional, its Her priests and bishops that sometimes dissent.