When does veneration become worship?

[Trisceptorc]

I’m not here to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary or the saints or anything. But since the Catholics don’t consider veneration to be worship, I was wondering where that ‘red line’ is. For example, if we were to put the Hail Holy Queen prayer side-by-side with the Lord’s Prayer, I don’t think the average Protestant would be able to tell the difference. So what kind of veneration does one need to show before veneration becomes worship?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m not here to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary or the saints or anything. But since the Catholics don’t consider veneration to be worship, I was wondering where that ‘red line’ is. For example, if we were to put the Hail Holy Queen prayer side-by-side with the Lord’s Prayer, I don’t think the average Protestant would be able to tell the difference. So what kind of veneration does one need to show before veneration becomes worship?

You tell me. Do you think your parents are worthy of love, honor, and respect? You venerate them. You don’t worship them as your Lord and Creator, though.

OK, same with Mary and the saints. We venerate them as worthy of love, honor, and respect. But they are not worshiped as our Lord and Creator. Only God is our Lord and our Creator; only God is our Savior.

So really, please do tell me where in the Hail Holy Queen she is addressed as our Savior. Really read through the whole prayer. What is Mary asked to ‘do’? To save us? Uh-unh.

“Turn your eyes of mercy toward us and after this our exile. **show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus”.

**oh-kay. So who is doing any saving? Who is the ultimate ‘end’ of the prayer? To whom are all the prayers directed?

Yep. Jesus.

I’m sure you’ll be quick to tell me anecdotal evidence of somebody you know (probably somebody over age 50, for some reason we older people are usually targeted as the blind dupes of brainwashing) you ‘really thinks Mary is more important than Jesus’. Hey, if that person does so, it’s because they don’t understand their own faith enough (and that’s something that happens to protestants too, and we don’t go around saying that because Protestant A doesn’t follow a teaching, it means all protestants are wrong or invalidates the teaching itself).

Some protestants (anecdotally speaking) are so keyed into one aspect of God’s ‘written word’ that they have turned it into the ONLY thing that they accept. Some only will follow the ‘words in red’ because Jesus said THEM but not ‘anything else’. Some will only follow ‘social justice’ as defined by their pastor, or by their own ‘spirit-led thoughts’ and will ignore the rest of the Bible because ‘right now, those things aren’t important’ or 'THOSE concepts weren’t understood by the writers. They didn’t realize that COMMITTED gays are as worthy of ‘marriage’ as straights are. St Paul was a homophobe and JESUS never says anything against gays". . . etc.

But I’m not going to go around and say,
"Gee, you know, when does Protestant acceptance of a biblical teaching become ‘passe’ instead of being followed? If you look at Scripture, when did this teaching which was accepted for generations ‘cross the line’ into being ‘optional’ and finally into being completely rewritten, or completely ‘dumped?’

 

[adrift]

What is worship?

Webster defines it
the act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god : the act of worshipping God or a god

To answer your question when you believe that what you are venerating is a god.

 

[Trisceptorc]

I’m not a true protestant, by the way. I actually accept a few Catholic teachings; I just associate more with the protestants than with the Catholics. I have no anecdotes I want to share to criticize your faith, and the reason I’m participating on Catholic Answers is so I can gain some deeper insights into the Bible.

You tell me. Do you think your parents are worthy of love, honor, and respect? You venerate them. You don’t worship them as your Lord and Creator, though.

Sure, I respect my parents, but I don’t talk to them as though they were king and queen. I don’t worship them as my Lord and Creator, but I also don’t talk to them the same way I would talk to my Lord.

So really, please do tell me where in the Hail Holy Queen she is addressed as our Savior. Really read through the whole prayer. What is Mary asked to ‘do’? To save us? Uh-unh.

Mary is not addressed as our savior, in this prayer or in any other prayer. Instead, she is supposed to be the model for which we should live our lives: the humble, obedient handmaiden. My main confusion is why we make ourselves so low, so pitiful before her feet when we pray. If she doesn’t save, why can’t we talk to her like we would talk to, say, a boss who is also a close friend? Why do we need to call her the “Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope”? Christ is hope. Christ, literally, is life. So why do we talk to Mary and other saints like we would talk to God?

 

[praestat_fides]

Dulia: the honor that we can give to a saint

Hyper dulia: the honor that is reserved for the blessed virgin

Latria: the honor that is reserved for God alone

From EWTN website: The technical terms that are used seem appropriate for the explanation. The chief ones are dulia, hyperdulia, and latria. Dulia is a Greek term meaning the veneration or homage, different in nature and degree from that given to God, that is paid to the saints. It includes, for example, honoring the saints and seeking their intercession with God. Related to dulia is Hyperdulia, the special veneration accorded the Blessed Virgin Mary because of her unique role in the mystery of Redemption, her exceptional gifts of grace from God, and her pre eminence among the saints. Hyperdulia is not adoration; only God is adored. Such adoration reserved exclusively for God is termed latria, a Greek-rooted Latin term that refers to that form of praise and worship due to God alone. I hope this assists you.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m not here to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary or the saints or anything. But since the Catholics don’t consider veneration to be worship, I was wondering where that ‘red line’ is.

IMO, this is mostly English semantics. The Vatican uses the Latin “colere” and it’s been translated on the Vatican website as “to worship” although it could have easily been translated as “to venerate” in the context of Mary.

 

[Trisceptorc]

Dulia: the honor that we can give to a saint

Hyper dulia: the honor that is reserved for the blessed virgin

Latria: the honor that is reserved for God alone

This is helpful, thank you. Could you explain what the differences look like in practice? Most protestants wouldn’t be convinced by this explanation, but if I can show them the differences in the prayers, then perhaps they will understand (myself included).

 

[lingnienshin]

I appreciate you for being very respectful and open. Other Churches normally attack the Catholic church and even call it the harlot of Babylon

Jesus is God and is also Human. Jesus is the son of God. Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus. Because Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of God. To say that Mary is the mother of Jesus only is denying the trinitarian aspect of the divinity of Christ. She therefore deserves much respect. This however does not make her an immortal goddess because God still created her. She in fact admits she needed a savior. God created humans, Mary was a human. Humans cannot save themselves therefore they need God. Thus Mary despite being in a state of grace by not comitting original sin needed God.

Catholics do not worship Mary. They pray to her and ask her to intercede for them. You may quote from 1 Timothy 2:5 “There is no mediator between God and Man except Jesus Christ” but if this were the case, then would not that mean that anyone who asks fellow Christians to pray for them is guilty of violating this verse?

As for your question when does veneration become worship, as one of the Priest in my Parish said "There was once a man who came up to him and asked him to whom was it more effective to pray to, to the statue of our lady of perpetual help or to the statue of our lady of fatima? when they are both Virgin Mary. It is a wrong notion to believe that the statue in itself has power. It is the person whom the statue represent who intercedes on our behalf to God. And another would be when People trample on another during the feast of the black Nazarene in the Philippines just to touch the statue and obtain graces. The procession is not condemned by the church. What is condemned is when people start trampling and climbing on one another just to touch the statue because the Statue is not God but more of an artistic representation of Him.

Some protestants might tell me that the first commandment forbids idols. Then I have to say that if that were the case then shouldnt we prohibit making statues of national heroes as well as photographs of people? Didnt God instruct people to build statues of cherubims in the old testatment? Didnt God instruct his people to bow down to a bronze snake?

Just remember this, Worshiping is for God alone. Everyone and everything created in this world should bring us closer to Him. Veneration becomes worship when we believe that the object of our veneration is the sole source of our happiness, there by not needing God. Ex. If a certain person believes that Mary alone saves and does not need Jesus is not needed anymore then yes, that is an act of worship. This is not limited to saints and Mary. Some people without their knowledge has turned money into their gods. This is idolatry. Ex. Some people believe money alone will bring them true happiness, risking their lives for their material goods (victims of holdupping). Another example is power, People ask God for power instead of using power to bring other to God. They are greedy and want more power, and they get it, they dont pray anymore, thinking they dont need God and there by making themselves their own gods.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

What is worship?

Webster defines it
the act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god : the act of worshipping God or a god

To answer your question when you believe that what you are venerating is a god.

I like this answer!

 

[ob_audire]

To help you understand where the line between dulia and latria is, I suggest you think of two lovers, rather than your parents. Give them flowery language, if you like, each telling the other s/he is her love, her life, his sweet, his heart, his soul. That’s still dulia: neither thinks the other is God. Neither, we assume, really expects the other to fulfill him/her, to save their souls, or to make their life perfect. Both, we hope, does expect the other to help in each of those things, in union with God.

Obviously we don’t love Mary like a lover, but we do love her a lot. She prays for us, converts us, protects and helps us - in a closer union with God than any other. So, over the centuries, we have gotten a good deal more flowery with her than any other.

 

[ericc]

I’m not here to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary or the saints or anything. But since the Catholics don’t consider veneration to be worship, I was wondering where that ‘red line’ is. For example, if we were to put the Hail Holy Queen prayer side-by-side with the Lord’s Prayer, I don’t think the average Protestant would be able to tell the difference. So what kind of veneration does one need to show before veneration becomes worship?

Don’t look at the external, it can be rather deceiving. It is simple to differentiate worship vs veneration. Worship is what you give to the deity God. Veneration is to a non-deity. It is the love and respect that one give to friends/relatives of God. It is all in the heart.

 

[porthos11]

Dulia: the honor that we can give to a saint

Hyper dulia: the honor that is reserved for the blessed virgin

Latria: the honor that is reserved for God alone

And all of these can be translated as “worship”. In fact, older Catholic literature in English defined a “saint” (i.e. canonized) as a holy person whom the Church has deemed worthy of worship.

Only these Greek terms provide the exact precision we need.

But to answer the original question, where is the line? It’s where sacrifice comes in. The only worship fully worthy of God is sacrificial worship, and in line with that, we pray in the context of sacrifice. Therefore, we offer the Mass as an act of worship to God (latria) because there is only one acceptable Sacrifice: that of Christ. When we offer the Divine Office, we are offering a sacrifice of praise to God, in the very words inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In much the same way, we pray for mercy from God alone, because only through Christ’s Sacrifice is mercy available.

We never sacrifice anything to Mary or the saints, and we never implore them for mercy in litanies (invocations to God are always answered with “Have mercy on us”, but invocations to the saints are always “Pray for us”). Sometimes we hear the word “mercy” in Marian prayers (Hail Holy Queen or the Memorare) but this is not the mercy of salvation, but rather the same mercy we would ask a fellow human being, in the context of intercessory prayer.

 

[zab]

I’m not here to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary or the saints or anything. But since the Catholics don’t consider veneration to be worship, I was wondering where that ‘red line’ is. For example, if we were to put the Hail Holy Queen prayer side-by-side with the Lord’s Prayer, I don’t think the average Protestant would be able to tell the difference. So what kind of veneration does one need to show before veneration becomes worship?

That is a fair question. I think the red line is drawn when practices of some gets to be eccentric or out of control. While there is nothing wrong with having pictures and statues as reminders of our heavenly friends, the saints, we should be prudent about the practice, otherwise, like others in the world our gentle reminders could turn into collections and/or hording. We also need to follow the Church’s teaching on not following or promoting unapproved apparitions. True devotion of Mary ALWAYS leads to Jesus. If our devotion to Mary is not leading us closer to Jesus, then something is wrong. Having the “Hail Holy Queen” prayer posted side-by-side with the Lord’s Prayer in itself is not evidence of putting Mary on the same level as Jesus. It is a misunderstanding to think so. But there are other criticisms of Catholic devotion to Mary that are much more critical to the point of sounding disrespectful to the Mother of Jesus, the vessel that God chose to enter our world. We could ask, Is it fair of Catholics to have the impression that protestants have a disrespect for the Mother of Jesus? Do you ever wonder how Jesus feels about the attitude of some towards His mother?

 

[adrift]

And all of these can be translated as “worship”. In fact, older Catholic literature in English defined a “saint” (i.e. canonized) as a holy person whom the Church has deemed worthy of worship.

Only these Greek terms provide the exact precision we need.

But to answer the original question, where is the line? It’s where sacrifice comes in. The only worship fully worthy of God is sacrificial worship, and in line with that, we pray in the context of sacrifice. Therefore, we offer the Mass as an act of worship to God (latria) because there is only one acceptable Sacrifice: that of Christ. When we offer the Divine Office, we are offering a sacrifice of praise to God, in the very words inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In much the same way, we pray for mercy from God alone, because only through Christ’s Sacrifice is mercy available.

We never sacrifice anything to Mary or the saints, and we never implore them for mercy in litanies (invocations to God are always answered with “Have mercy on us”, but invocations to the saints are always “Pray for us”). Sometimes we hear the word “mercy” in Marian prayers (Hail Holy Queen or the Memorare) but this is not the mercy of salvation, but rather the same mercy we would ask a fellow human being, in the context of intercessory prayer.

Worship has changed meanings the 1913 Webster dictionary defined it in part as
1.To respect] to honor; to treat with civil reverence.

todays WebsterWebster defines it
the act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god : the act of worshipping God or a god

This is why you will find in older literature the older use one that is not used today but we get hammered with because it isn’t acknowledged that the definition has changed

 

[pablope]

I’m not a true protestant, by the way. I actually accept a few Catholic teachings; I just associate more with the protestants than with the Catholics. I have no anecdotes I want to share to criticize your faith, and the reason I’m participating on Catholic Answers is so I can gain some deeper insights into the Bible.

Sure, I respect my parents, but I don’t talk to them as though they were king and queen. I don’t worship them as my Lord and Creator, but I also don’t talk to them the same way I would talk to my Lord.

 

[schaeffer]

In much the same way, we pray for mercy from God alone, because only through Christ’s Sacrifice is mercy available.

We never sacrifice anything to Mary or the saints, and we never implore them for mercy in litanies (invocations to God are always answered with “Have mercy on us”, but invocations to the saints are always “Pray for us”). Sometimes we hear the word “mercy” in Marian prayers (Hail Holy Queen or the Memorare) but this is not the mercy of salvation, but rather the same mercy we would ask a fellow human being, in the context of intercessory prayer.

Thank you, that is very helpful

 

[Trisceptorc]

Thanks to everyone for posting! I feel that I understand the difference between veneration and worship pretty well now. I’m sure I’ll be asking more questions soon, so hopefully I’ll hear from some of you in a future thread!

 

[schaeffer]

Is an example provided to clarify the question and accusation?

Certainly the first response to the OP was an all out full blown reactive assumption that the church had been falsely accused of something. Because so often questions are immediately assumed to be attacks.

Sometimes people want to understand, and when they are responded to as if they attacked, they aren’t likely to ask any more questions, since they’ve clearly been identified as the enemy with an agenda.

I’ve been on the “wow, where did that come from” end of having asked an honest question and had a number of people come in to defend what had not been attacked.

I’ve also heard the “well, we have to because people do come in with an agenda”, yes, some do, but some don’t. Give people a chance?

 

[constantconvert]

I’m a Protestant convert, so I get where you’re coming from-- it’s a hurdle. In Protestant culture, there’s God, and angels, and then there’s everyone else, and everyone is looked on the same in the eyes of God. While that’s true in some sense, it’s also true some people are holier than others, by God’s Grace. They do more good works, they have more humility, they die to themselves more, some are specially endowed with stigmata or visions, etc. Then there’s Mary who has never sinned (according to the church) . Can you imagine never sinning? Always making the right choice? Never displeasing God? Then on top of that she’s Jesus’ mom. So we hold her in very high esteem. Modern culture has lost a lot of the honor and respect shown to important people. We don’t really revere people the way we once did, especially in the west. I guess the closest we have is celebrities so some of the flowery language might sound odd to our modern ears. When we hear a song on the radio that says " you’re the air that I breathe" it’s not literal, or worship, it’s an expression to show our love.
We love Mary so much because she is our Holy Mother who is always there for us, but we don’t ascribe attributes to her, like omniscience, omnipotence, immutability,. She is a creature, not the Creator, and the difference is exceedingly great.

 

[praestat_fides]

We never sacrifice anything to Mary or the saints, and we never implore them for mercy in litanies (invocations to God are always answered with “Have mercy on us”, but invocations to the saints are always “Pray for us”). Sometimes we hear the word “mercy” in Marian prayers (Hail Holy Queen or the Memorare) but this is not the mercy of salvation, but rather the same mercy we would ask a fellow human being, in the context of intercessory prayer.

I do not believe that Catholics give Mary a “Godess” status or sacrifice anything to her…but isn’t the Bible clear that we are not supposed to address any dead person in prayer even if it’s just to honor him/her? This is the crux of the problem that Protestants have with those Christians who are so openly Marian.