"When in Rome..."

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I just knew you had Nazarene in ya.
Nazarenes? They’re the wimps of the holiness world. That’s why non-holiness folks have heard of them. A really pure church would be so small that only a few hundred people would even know it existed:D

Seriously, that’s basically the way my grandparents’ church thought, and my folks carried that attitude on to some extent even after they left that church. When my grandparents’ church (known to the few initiates who have heard of it as the “Burning Bush”) had their camp meetings, they would shout, “Away with your Nazarene religion!”

Most of my grandparents’ siblings became Nazarenes, and I grew up hearing them described as worldly backsliders.

Edwin
 
I have never known about it.

Does these people live in secluded area or something?
They exist all over, but they’re particularly common in the Midwest. In the South people who identify themselves as “holiness” are likely to be Pentecostal (though the other kind are there as well), and the culture is a little different (more “hillbilly” and less uptight).

If you live outside the U.S., chances are you’ve never encountered a “holiness” Christian, though they do do quite a bit of mission work in some areas.

Edwin
 
The holiest Christians to be found on earth are Catholics. The worst examples of Christians on earth are Catholics.

…

The Catholic Church is so large that you can fit the whole Nazerene church into it. The Catholic Church has within it many organizations that you would fit into: Third Orders, Opus Dei, the Blue Army, etc. These groups are striving for holiness on a different level than your average person in the pew.
Thank you for mentioning these groups. Opus Dei looks particularly promising to me.
Please accept the beer drinking, smoking, gambling, and foul-mouthed Catholics as brothers in Christ, but not as role-models.
I think the top quote and this one are good ones.

Colossians 3:8:
But now you must put them all away: anger, fury, malice, slander, and obscene language out of your mouths.

For me (and Miss Manners, I’m from the South), the f-word, s-word are obscene. As a lady, I sincerely feel disrespected by the person who would use it in my presence. It is a matter of great kindness to me.

I’m a “Nazarene” in RCIA now and I don’t fully recognize the depictions the posters here are presenting. I have only known one Nazarene church among a city with 15 to be no make-up, jewelry, dresses only and they were considered very out of the loop.

The don’t drink, smoke, gamble, dance, go to movies, etc. are disciplines as the RCC would put it. They have been tweaked in several ways. The Nazarene Manual now reads something along the lines of “Choose wisely your entertainment.” They still don’t drink, and I cannot agree that to abstain is biblical.

I digress on the topic of Nazarenes. I have a deep fondness for them, even though I almost always thought the injunction against drinking and ordaining women was wrong.

My signature quote second line could sum up my thoughts on the Nazarenes. 🙂

So nice to see another former Nazarene on here, McKevin.

I had no more idea of becoming a Catholic than of becoming a cannibal.
I imagined that I was merely pointing out that justice should be done even to cannibals . . .
G.K. Chesterton
 
Holiness churches are generally the most conservative denominations in the Wesleyan/Methodist tradition. (I grew up in the Free Methodist Church, with a God’s Bible School pastor…This is not going to mean much to most, but McKevin will, I am sure, recognize whence I sprang!!)
Me too! My “Burning Bush” ancestors had some connection with the founder of GBS (Martin Wells Knapp, wasn’t it? Or am I mixing him up with someone else?), and GBS was actually one of the first places I visited in the U.S. (I remember sitting on the floor in their bookstore reading a book. . . )
The name comes from a particular doctrinal teaching called Entire Sanctification, which springs largely from the writings of Charles Wesley, who was** much** more conservative than his more famous brother John…
I’d want to qualify this in several ways. First of all, Charles was more “conservative” in certain specific respects (such as his belief in apostolic succession), but not really ways that are relevant to this discussion I think. In the second place, I’m dubious as to whether Entire Sanctification is more based in Charles’s writings than in John’s. I’d like to hear your reasons for thinking this and which writings you are talking about. I’m more used to hearing John Fletcher credited/blamed for certain aspects of the later holiness doctrine (such as the identification of sanctification with the baptism of the Spirit). You may be right about Charles, but I’m not sure.

And finally, I wouldn’t describe holiness theology as “conservative.” Of course an insistence on holiness is conservative with respect to those traditions where it is the old-fashioned view; and of course it’s conservative in the sense that it promotes moral rigorism and very old-fashioned codes of conduct (at least in the 20th-century context). But in terms of the Christian tradition as a whole it’s hardly conservative theologically-it’s one of the more innovative doctrines in Christian history (at least what you and I were brought up to think of as the “conservative” version, namely instantaneous eradication–the “softer” version that I myself would hold to is more traditional, which is why I still hold to it).
Among the things that are prohibited by various groups within the holiness fold are: dancing, make-up,
Of course!
jewelry ( sometimes including wedding bands),
My grandmother started wearing a wedding ring after moving to Britain (my grandparents ran a Bible School in Glasgow and did evangelistic work all over Britain for years), because the holiness custom was not understood and many people didn’t think my grandparents were really married. My mother followed suit, and when we moved back to this country this was one of the points of conflict with the stricter holiness folks (one of the more minor reasons why we didn’t fit into that culture any more–we were really like Rip Van Winkle).
movie attendance, work and/or shopping on Sunday ( & often no eating out either;
It involves spending money, and it makes other people work. My parents have softened on this gradually (as on many things). But they still don’t eat out very much anyway, because they are frugal and prefer to do things for themselves (we raised a lot of our own vegetables).
one pastor forbade children playing out of doors).
I was discouraged from anything that was too rowdy, although long walks were encouraged, and I could usually get away with pretending to be a missionary or an early Christian or a Protestant being persecuted by Catholics, and managed to sneak in some running and shouting that way. . . .
Many people I knew growing up (including my own grandmother) considered “gosh”, “darn”, & “heck” to be near to swearing–certainly not allowed!
My mother once gave my father a hard time for saying “shucks.”

My mother has been writing novels recently, and in one of them she had a [worldly] character say, “Don’t give me that ****.” My mother has an extremely good ear for language, and is trying to make her characters as lifelike as possible. I had a struggle of conscience as to whether I should tell her what it meant. I kept quiet until she asked me directly. . . . The really funny part was that when my mother was wondering what the word actually meant, my father said, “Isn’t it some kind of dice game?” (Actually, he may have said “card game”–I don’t remember.)

Edwin
 
Nazarenes? They’re the wimps of the holiness world. That’s why non-holiness folks have heard of them. A really pure church would be so small that only a few hundred people would even know it existed 😃
The first church (non-Nazarene) I can remember attending was in the hayloft of a barn in White Hall, Kentucky. I have photographs of my dad baptizing new believers while the cows were behind them cooling off in the water. I think about 30 people attended this church…it has been a long journey home from this type of upbringing, but I do feel home in the Catholic Church, it’s just the culture is really, really, different.
 
The don’t drink, smoke, gamble, dance, go to movies, etc. are disciplines as the RCC would put it. They have been tweaked in several ways. The Nazarene Manual now reads something along the lines of “Choose wisely your entertainment.” They still don’t drink, and I cannot agree that to abstain is biblical.

I digress on the topic of Nazarenes. I have a deep fondness for them, even though I almost always thought the injunction against drinking and ordaining women was wrong.

My signature quote second line could sum up my thoughts on the Nazarenes.

So nice to see another former Nazarene on here, McKevin.]
Ah, The Nazarene Manual. I had almost forgotten all about that! Thanks for the kind words, and good luck in RCIA, I was there for 1 year, the best experience of my life! As much as these experiences that I’ve listed have been hard on my spirit at times the people - even the ones whose actions I don’t agree with, have a lot of love and concern for each other, the community, and God. Maybe the real difference is that they don’t hide their sins from each other like the holiness church brethern I grew up with seemed to do 😉 Let me know if I can help you in any way during your RCIA Shellie, and I’ll keep you in prayer. By the way, did your Nazarene church have aisle runners? Man, ours had some real characters. They would get “blessed” during the singing and run all over that church 😃
 
Perhaps this is why you have been called.

There are many gentle, non-confrontational ways that you can show that off-color stories and similar things are not proper. Lead by example, and you will see results.
 
Ah, The Nazarene Manual. I had almost forgotten all about that!
I’m such a geek I read it when I was a child. Often. Sick kid. 😃
Thanks for the kind words, and good luck in RCIA, I was there for 1 year, the best experience of my life!
So wonderful to hear.
As much as these experiences that I’ve listed have been hard on my spirit at times the people - even the ones whose actions I don’t agree with, have a lot of love and concern for each other, the community, and God. Maybe the real difference is that they don’t hide their sins from each other like the holiness church brethern I grew up with seemed to do 😉
A-men.
Let me know if I can help you in any way during your RCIA Shellie, and I’ll keep you in prayer.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
By the way, did your Nazarene church have aisle runners? Man, ours had some real characters. They would get “blessed” during the singing and run all over that church 😃
Just dear old Brother Stogsdill. A little old Elmer Fudd of a man and he would run with a hanky. However, he was the only one and I will tell you he was blessed with the Spirit of the Lord. He died when I was young, maybe 12-13, and he was never replaced. No more runners. I miss him. 🙂
 
Just dear old Brother Stogsdill. A little old Elmer Fudd of a man and he would run with a hanky. However, he was the only one and I will tell you he was blessed with the Spirit of the Lord. He died when I was young, maybe 12-13, and he was never replaced. No more runners. I miss him. 🙂
I have to admit that I do miss seeing those “Noise-arenes” running around the church. But the solemnity of the Mass is so much more of a blessing. Be sure to attend the Easter vigil. This is when the adult converts are baptized and I witnessed a convert from Judaism cry like a baby after his baptism. It was such a good service!

Peace!
 
I have to admit that I do miss seeing those “Noise-arenes” running around the church.
LOL!
But the solemnity of the Mass is so much more of a blessing.
Yes sir. I’d say because it is what worship IS, not what we thought it should be. I love Mass.
Be sure to attend the Easter vigil. This is when the adult converts are baptized and I witnessed a convert from Judaism cry like a baby after his baptism. It was such a good service!
Well, I don’t think I have a choice. 😉 That’s when they’re bringing in the candidates too. But I wouldn’t miss it anyway. I’ve heard tell. 😃

And since I was all misty Sunday at our family’s Rite of Welcoming, I can only imagine Eucharist at Easter vigil. God has blessed us so much already, and I look forward with joy to what he has planned for the future.
 
I’m a convert from a holiness church, and I’ve got a bad case of Catholic culture shock:eek:

I joined the choir and the language that the choir members use during practice would be bleeped out on broadcast TV…
Perhaps I need to lighten up and join in with the “fun”?
Maybe you and I have an attitude in common where we don’t really know what to do all the time when we’re confronted by such things in Christ’s Church.

Well, after reading most of your experiences, I was actually thinking “is this guy for real?” Like, it just went on and on! I feel compassion for you that you’ve had such poor fellowship from your Catholic compadres.

Probably the people don’t realize that their status quo way of living their life is abominable to the Holy Spirit which fills them. Which is sad, because the Spirit of the Lord flees from deceit.

Don’t take part in their rabblish behaviour. If you must be around them, then be a good example of a Catholic trying to live a virtuous life.

Pray regularly, and do a little daily or everysooften spiritual reading, like the Bible or a devotional book by a Saint.

Maybe just pick your top 2 or 3 things to be involved in, and don’t be involved in so much.

Don’t let their offensive behaviour keep you from being involved in Church activities that you enjoy being part of.
 
Don’t get me wrong guys, it’s not that I don’t drink, I have developed a great appreciation for German wheat beer I don’t drink in excess and I don’t feel comfortable drinking at church, it’s that I don’t feel right associating it with church events. And I have seen people at the parish drink too much and it seems to be what leads to the profanity. So why permit it? :confused:

As for the language and off-color jokes - those aren’t a part of my life period. And it sure kills my spirit to hear that stuff at church, actually I don’t like hearing it anywhere
Wow…I’m getting in on this thread really late. I know we all have different ideas of Christian behavior, but there comes a point… Maybe it’s smarter just to go to mass and not go to other things. I find the Christian walk is lonely no matter where you are.

I’ve had a few thoughts lately on individualistic :bowdown: vs. corporate :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: faith. Seems like corporate identification is as likely as individualism to lead people to excesses–drunken profanity, rolling on the floor and “giving birth” to ministries :whacky: or cutting off genitals :bigyikes: to board some comet. :rotfl: It’s always something.

Someone asked why you became a Catholic, given the culture shock… I thought that belief–not culture–was the guiding force behind conversions.
 
A puritan is a person who pours righteous indignation into the wrong things. G K Chesterton
Sometimes people are less than perfect, but puritanism is not the answer. Granted, I know the OP didn’t grow up in a Catholic environment but I’m sure he’ll learn.

Best thing to do is to be a good example-but not a prude or “holier than thou”. All of us need to work on things.
 
The Catholic Church is so large that you can fit the whole Nazerene church into it. The Catholic Church has within it many organizations that you would fit into: Third Orders, Opus Dei, the Blue Army, etc. These groups are striving for holiness on a different level than your average person in the pew.
.
Wow. You have explained a lot. So glad I scrolled down. I feel much better for reading now.
 
Wow…finally finished reading. This has been so interesting, reading about everybody’s background in “holiness” and the Nazarenes, etc. Edwin and I have discussed previously some similarities in our background, but honestly, I think a lot of you guys had it LOTs stricter than I did.

My parents did not come from the same backgrounds and agreed to raise us more or less according to my mother’s background – sort of pentacostalized Presbyterianism, so it was completely unlike “holiness” straight up. But there was a lot of cross pollination and *some *of the people I knew way back didn’t think women should wear sleeveless dresses or makeup or pants (but not all). Drinking and smoking were out as was divorce and remarriage. Oh–and card playing.

My mother was a bit looser (not morally, but culturally). She dressed nice in high hells and makeup when she went out. (Maybe it was a second-generational thing starting to kick in with her.) In spite of it all, we grew up out of church for at least half of our lives and maybe more.

My father had been a Methodist, but I think his family just defaulted to that at some point from Lutheranism. They were German and merged with a Methodist family. They were definitely more middle-of-the-road in culture. So you might say that I grew up in a split level existence.

My parents were really *extreme *opposites. What made my father laugh hysterically made my mother outraged…I am remembering a particular time… haha…you don’t even want to know…For all that, it was impossible not to absorb the more perfectionistic side of correct behavior. The mother is nearly always the one who influences the children’s development… It was always hard for me to be as loose as my classmates when I was a teen, but also hard to be as tight laced as a Pentecostal Holiness person would have been. Now many conservative churches allow stuff that I would kick straight out of my house. Odd how these things work.
 
Well, after reading most of your experiences, I was actually thinking “is this guy for real?” Like, it just went on and on! I feel compassion for you that you’ve had such poor fellowship from your Catholic compadres.

Don’t let their offensive behaviour keep you from being involved in Church activities that you enjoy being part of.
Some of the wording in my original post may be too strong. Like the “ruled the nest” comment…but I would like to point out that I have been introduced to some of the holiest people I’ve ever met right here in this same Catholic church - and I admire the way everyone lives and let lives with hardly a shadow of hypocricy. Catholics have taught me much more in the past 4 years than I learned my entire time growing up as a protestant.

The choir sang Amazing Grace during the preparation of the gifts this morning and the guy next to me let out a hardy “amen” after the song…not quite the level of praise that I grew up with at the Nazarene church but it really blessed me to hear it!
 
The Catholic Church is so large that you can fit the whole Nazerene church into it. The Catholic Church has within it many organizations that you would fit into: Third Orders, Opus Dei, the Blue Army, etc. These groups are striving for holiness on a different level than your average person in the pew.

Please accept the beer drinking, smoking, gambling, and foul-mouthed Catholics as brothers in Christ, but not as role-models.
The last I checked, which was when I was planning on becoming a Nazarene preacher, there were about 580,000 Nazarene’s - so I’d say they we can put them in the Catholic church almost 20 times!

My role model is Christ! 👍
 
My parents did not come from the same backgrounds and agreed to raise us more or less according to my mother’s background – sort of pentacostalized Presbyterianism, so it was completely unlike “holiness” straight up. But there was a lot of cross pollination and some of the people I knew way back didn’t think women should wear sleeveless dresses or makeup or pants (but not all). Drinking and smoking were out as was divorce and remarriage. Oh–and card playing.
I remember a time when I was about 13 and my family and I were sitting at the table in the dining room of the parsonage playing 500 rummy when a lady from the church stopped by. The next few weeks were strained by the scandal of the card playing preacher and his family :whacky:
 
McKevin:

I live in an area that is awash in holiness churches, including Nazarenes. I realize some of the things Catholics do must seem shocking to a person of that background.

I guess I am a bit lax on things like swearing, telling off-color jokes and drinking. I work with broken families, crime and lots of other things on the scaly underbelly of life, and to me, swearing, telling off-color jokes and drinking (alcoholism is different) don’t loom very large in my catalogue of the world’s evils.

Knowing a couple of things might be helpful. First, swearing really is a cultural thing, and not a peculiarly Catholic thing. Different nationalities (and those of various ethnic origins) swear differently from one another. Those of Northern European extraction tend to take the Lord’s name in vain more than Continental Europeans. The French used to refer to the English as the “God-dons” (the French rendering of G-- D–n) because it seemed to the French that every other word Englishmen spoke was punctuated by that. It is doubtful the English then or now really meant it. The French, on the other hand, were more given to obscene “cussing”. Cussing in Hungarian is alleged to be the most prolific and most artistic of all. Supposedly there are reasons why each ethnic group “cusses” differently, and I could go into them, but it would take too long here. Suffice it to say it is done for emphasis virtually always; not for any other reason. Sometimes it is actually rather linguistically clever, and I have heard swearing so artistic that Shakespeare might have invented it. (Actually, there’s a lot of profanity and obscenity in Shakespeare.) Mostly, it is just plain crude. Catholics in the U.S. got the worst of both worlds. Continental obscenity and Anglo-Saxon profanity. I do think it’s something that will run its course. I, by the way, absolutely will not say anything obscene in the presence of a woman, nor will I allow it in my workplace.

Swearing is considered a fairly minor thing in Catholicism, but in my opinion, swearing AT ALL in any kind of church function is completely out of order. Something that is basically meaningless in any other context shows a lack of reverence in a church context. I would not hesitate, in, say, choir practice in church, to politely ask someone not to swear. He/she might consider me a jerk, but some things are just out of order.

I read an interesting study about alcohol use. Supposedly, certain churches prohibit drinking because their adherents are mostly of Scots-Irish descent (true around here, anyway. It’s a good thing in some ways). A study done by one alcoholism institute demonstrated that there is a physiological difference in the way people of Celtic origin metabolize alcohol, which causes them to drink harder and succumb to alcoholism more often. (interesting, but too long for here) On the continent, however, alcoholism is not too common (except in celtic areas, e.g., Brittany (France), Galicia (Spain), Galizia (Poland), Galatea (Turkey). Since drinking was such a disaster among Scots-Irish, churches in predominantly Scots-Irish places tend to be against it. The Irish, of course, do not, but a little known fact is that in the Irish Catholic Church here and in Ireland there were societies of men (My grandfather belonged to Knights of Fr. Malachy, the sole purpose of which was to stay away from alcohol) formed to fight alcohol abuse. For the Italians, there was no great need.

Catholics as a group are a bit more earthy than some protestant groups. Can’t be denied. I think there is a cultural reason for that. Catholics generally do not see the dichotomy between the soul and the body that many protestants do. Holiness churches in particular, to my knowledge, are uncomfortable with things of the earth in a way Catholics, generally, are not.

Before I run out of room, and maybe I already have, I would like to share a line from Chesterton (a convert) with you.
“Wherever the Catholic sun does shine
There’s music, laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benidicamus Domino.”

Welcome home, Pardner!
 
I remember a time when I was about 13 and my family and I were sitting at the table in the dining room of the parsonage playing 500 rummy when a lady from the church stopped by. The next few weeks were strained by the scandal of the card playing preacher and his family :whacky:
Oh, that is sooo funny. I visited a Nazarene church one time, but I didn’t see any Holy Ghost type stuff going on. They were so quiet…

A couple of years ago I was at a civic event and this class of little girls were doing a dance skit. Not sure who the singer was on the recording, but I think the name of the record was “Kingdom Come” and it went something like this:

“I used to smoke, I used to drink,
I used to smoke and drink and dance the hootchy-coo…
Now I’m standin’ on the corner, talkin’ 'bout the Kingdom come.”

The crowds of people stopped what they were doing and we started laughing and practically hugging each other, because you know–we’d all lived through something like this…it’s a shared knowing. The little girls were SOO cute!!!

Doesn’t it all come back now? “I don’t smoke and I don’t chew and I don’t go with girls that do!” 😃

Anyway, I’m so glad to hear that you are having other positive experiences in the CC. Sometimes I hear one thing, then another and feel like I’ve been up and down on the topic like a yo-yo. The best spiritual writers I’ve found are *mostly *Catholic. But the warmest *groups *I’ve found have been Protestant. And the people who have *risked *the most are often the non-affiliated. It’s hard to get it all in one box.
 
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