"When in Rome..."

[McKevin]

The Trappist monks make very tasty beer. Chimay is a world renowned brew. Just drink it in moderation.

Don’t get me wrong guys, it’s not that I don’t drink, I have developed a great appreciation for German wheat beer I don’t drink in excess and I don’t feel comfortable drinking at church, it’s that I don’t feel right associating it with church events. And I have seen people at the parish drink too much and it seems to be what leads to the profanity. So why permit it?

As for the language and off-color jokes - those aren’t a part of my life period. And it sure kills my spirit to hear that stuff at church, acutally I don’t like hearing it anywhere

 

[Magicsilence]

Yeah, this is exactly what I was thinking of when I read “former holiness Christian”. It’s hard for most of us, even conservative Catholics, to comprehend the culture that conservative Nazarenes have, for example. Often times when we hear things like “they were using foul language” we just automatically assume that the person is talking about words that we would consider foul, when in fact they may have a TOTALLY different classification. This is especially true of the holiness movement in comparison to even solid, conservative Catholics.

Now I just want to be clear that my advice to “loosen up” is not to say that there is anything wrong with McKevin’s sensitivities, in fact his/her friends could learn from them. It’s just that if McKevin is from a Nazarene background, then McKevin might as well plan to move to the moon if they want to survive being Catholic, unless they’re willing to “loosen up” a little bit.

McKevin: That being said, there certainly are some troubling things going on as you’ve now described. They shouldn’t be taking the Lord’s name in vain under any circumstances. Sometimes it just pops out, and we can’t judge someone on the matter, but it is a very bad habit that lends itself to sin and should be corrected over time. You can encourage your friends to be more careful about such things without beating them over the head or making them feel like child-killers. A simple “Now, now…” type of correction may be enough to help them grow and improve.

F-bombs are definately offensive to many ears, and while I won’t excuse their use I will say that for some folks it really is just the culture they were raised in (I know that’s true of me). While I’ve easily broken the misuse of God’s name/s,** I’ve don’t think I’ll ever fully break the use of the f-word, though I have learned to control it and not throw it all over the place**. It’s just plain hard for me to view it as inherently evil, however, and unless I do I don’t see myself losing it completely. That doesn’t make it right, it’s just a feature of mine that isn’t pretty but isn’t likely to go away soon. So try to understand that even as you help to correct your friend and help them to grow

Peace and God bless!

I thought too it would be difficult, but its really not.

If you were in front of Jesus, would you swear or say anything inappropriate?

If you wouldn’t then you CAN do it, but you are just being slack about putting it into application.

Of course, every instance is different.

Also, McKevin might not need to loosen up. There are saints who would not touch alcohol except in the mass, of course.
And keeping check of their tongue was just intrinsic to their life. Hanging out with friends and having a few beers might not be sinful, but the American culture which so pervades all aspects of daily life would suggest that it could turn into something more sinful.

As Catholics we are not to be part of this world, right?

Peace and God Bless.

 

[MojeIme1981]

As Catholics we are not to be part of this world, right?

Maybe:
“You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” (James 4:4)

 

[rwoehmke]

This situation has been bothering me all night. Considering that Catholics believe that we are the very members(parts) of nthe Mystical Body of Christ and that our bodies are indeed temples of the HolySpirit, how do we let ourselves go to the extent we do in obssesive use of alcohol, cursing and swearing, turning spiritual formation for the next CCHP retreat into a drinking party. Didn’t the retreat these guys participated in wreak any change at all in their behavior? I have nothing at all against the moderate use of alcohol, some gambling if it doesn’t deprive your family, and recognize that an ocasional swear word or obscenity might issue from anyones lips, but this situation sounds way out of bounds for people who participate in the Eucharist and become more and more of that which they eat, the very body of Christ. Why bother with a few hours dedicated to the Lord each week, if the remainder of ones time is spent living like a heathen? I know a number of younger folks who did CHRP retreats in my parish and would observe that in many cases it changed their lives. They really put on the “new man in Christ.” Why isn’t that happening in the OP’s parish?

 

[deb1]

Quite true for most instances that I’m referring to, however, a spiritual director in CRHP was quite fond of taking the Lord’s name in vain and there were some F*bombs falling around the room. But in the choir it is basically rated “PG”. A little more that the words you referred to in an earlier post, but nothing you don’t hear on TV every 5 minutes.

By taking the Lord’s name in vain do you mean God**** or simply accidently saying, “Oh, my God” ? I ask because I have been told that both are offensive to some groups.

As far as the F word, it is surprising how acceptable the word has become lately.

 

[Saint_Michael]

People are people, I once to a Charger’s game with my wifes cousin who was a reborn Christian, he was having me fill bottles of O’Douls with Budweiser during the tailgate, true story.

But to the OP, no I don’t think you should curse, drink, and join in with jokes in bad taste, there’s plenty of Catholics who do not live their lives this way, you need to seek them out.

 

[Tom317]

The OP makes good points. We are called to be in the world, not of the world; however, more often then not Catholics appear to be of the world in the way they live, act, talk, etc.

I think the overused phrase “What would Jesus do” is appropriate here. Would Jesus gamble, cuss, tell dirty jokes? If our Lord would not do it, should we?

 

[deb1]

The OP makes good points. We are called to be in the world, not of the world; however, more often then not Catholics appear to be of the world in the way they live, act, talk, etc.

I think the overused phrase “What would Jesus do” is appropriate here. Would Jesus gamble, cuss, tell dirty jokes? If our Lord would not do it, should we?

I don’t know if Jesus ever gambled, as it isn’t reported in the bible. The apostle’s did, as that is how they picked the replacement for Judas.

By gambling do you mean the Bingo games that older people like? I see nothing wrong or even vaguely immoral in these games.

As far as dirty jokes, no I have to admit, I can’t imagine Jesus telling dirty jokes. But the OP didn’t say dirty jokes, she/he said off color jokes. Some people have different impressions of what an off color joke is.

 

[Tom317]

I don’t know if Jesus ever gambled, as it isn’t reported in the bible. The apostle’s did, as that is how they picked the replacement for Judas.

By gambling do you mean the Bingo games that older people like? I see nothing wrong or even vaguely immoral in these games.

As far as dirty jokes, no I have to admit, I can’t imagine Jesus telling dirty jokes. But the OP didn’t say dirty jokes, she/he said off color jokes. Some people have different impressions of what an off color joke is.

I have always been uneasy with gambling on parish property…like Bingo and Las Vegas nights…that is wrong imo.

I do not see Jesus telling off color jokes either.

I would hardly call the apostles actions to choose Judas’ replacement gambling.

 

[deb1]

I have always been uneasy with gambling on parish property…like Bingo and Las Vegas nights…that is wrong imo.

I do not see Jesus telling off color jokes either.

I would hardly call the apostles actions to choose Judas’ replacement gambling.

I respect your opinion.

Personally, I don’t find Bingo to be wrong because I don’t see gambling, in itself, offensive. Now, I find doing anything done to an exteme to be offensive, whether it is gambling, drinking or eating too much pizza.

My parish’s Bingo is anything but extreme. For twenty five cents you got the chance to win $7.50. My hubby played with our daughters and all three enjoyed themselves. I am being honest when I say that I think that Jesus might play such a game.

 

[Tom317]

I respect your opinion.

Personally, I don’t find Bingo to be wrong because I don’t see gambling, in itself, offensive. Now, I find doing anything done to an exteme to be offensive, whether it is gambling, drinking or eating too much pizza.

My parish’s Bingo is anything but extreme. For twenty five cents you got the chance to win $7.50. My hubby played with our daughters and all three enjoyed themselves. I am being honest when I say that I think that Jesus might play such a game.

Jesus became fairly agitated with the money changers in the outer court of the Temple, enough so to knock over their tables and drive them out of the Temple area. That is enough for me to think that commerce is not appropriate in a Church/Temple and bingo is commerce.

I have no problem with gambling, just not in Churches and I do wonder what Jesus would think of it.

 

[deb1]

Jesus became fairly agitated with the money changers in the outer court of the Temple, enough so to knock over their tables and drive them out of the Temple area. That is enough for me to think that commerce is not appropriate in a Church/Temple and bingo is commerce.

I have no problem with gambling, just not in Churches and I do wonder what Jesus would think of it.

From what I understand-and I might be wrong-Jesus was angry that the money changers were cheating people. They were making money off the poor. I will relook this information up, though.

I know of a Baptist church that will not even have a bake sale on their property, even if it is to raise money for their church.

 

[Ghosty]

I thought too it would be difficult, but its really not.

If you were in front of Jesus, would you swear or say anything inappropriate?

If you wouldn’t then you CAN do it, but you are just being slack about putting it into application.

Of course, every instance is different.

Also, McKevin might not need to loosen up. There are saints who would not touch alcohol except in the mass, of course.
And keeping check of their tongue was just intrinsic to their life. Hanging out with friends and having a few beers might not be sinful, but the American culture which so pervades all aspects of daily life would suggest that it could turn into something more sinful.

As Catholics we are not to be part of this world, right?

Peace and God Bless.

Honestly I can’t say how I would speak around Jesus were He to show up physically and talk to me. It’s an impossible conundrum that I don’t find very useful for a number of reasons. Would I throw about a couple of cuss words? Quite possibly, unless he said they offended Him. Since I don’t find anything inherently offensive in some words that others do, I would likely ask Jesus what He was offended by. For all I know those things don’t bother Him, for all I know they do. “Be careful of what comes out of your mouth” is rather vague, but since He elsewhere talks about lieds, and rumors, and personal verbal attacks, I can just as easily assume that that’s all He was talking about.

Realize that I’m not making excuses, but that I really don’t know, especially since “foul language” is truly relative, but lies and rumors are objective. What is considered a foul word by some is a common word for others even in “high society”. Another thing to remember is that humans have a natural capacity to invent “bad words”, or to ascribe “badness” to formerly acceptable words. If you tell a kid that they can’t say the “sh–” word, but that they can say “cr–” and “po–”, then one of those two words will soon become the new cuss word, and the other will be the polite one. I’m not convinced that this isn’t just a natural and healthy part of language, but I’m definately open to the possibility that it’s not.

Again, though, I want to stress that my suggestion to “loosen up” is not because McKevin isn’t living well or better than those around him. I simply mean that if he intends to be around humans at all, even Catholics, he’s going to have to get somewhat comfortable, if not accepting, of a certain level of PG-language and drinking, unless he wants to become a monk in which case he only HAS to get used to drinking on church property

I say this because it’s easy to be driven mad by constantly evaluating every little word and gesture. There are ways of being “not of this world” without being mentally destroyed by it, and that’s what I’m advocating.

Your mileage may vary

Peace and God bless!

 

[scriabin]

As a convert I appreciate the problem.

We have to remember that the Catholic Church is a BIG place.

The holiest Christians to be found on earth are Catholics. The worst examples of Christians on earth are Catholics.

The Church’s standards of holiness are most stringent (ever hear of required celibacy, or vows of poverty, chastity, and obediance in a Protestant church?) but her standards to accept people into the Church are less stringent (in a Protestant’s eyes).

I go to daily Mass. My wife goes once a year. We’re both considered Catholics. She has less fervor for the faith, but that doesn’t somehow make me “more” Catholic than she.

Many Protestant churches I’ve attended were exclusive to any but the most commited Christian. ex. unless you had a speaking-in-tongues experience, you weren’t considered “in”.

But the Catholic Church accepts as her own so many more Christians of weak faith, unformed consciences, and questionable characters. Are these people trying to get better? Who knows? but they’re Catholic.

These more lax Christians might not be our friends or examples of holiness but I’m glad they’re Catholic because to some Christians you and I are lax to them.

The Catholic Church is so large that you can fit the whole Nazerene church into it. The Catholic Church has within it many organizations that you would fit into: Third Orders, Opus Dei, the Blue Army, etc. These groups are striving for holiness on a different level than your average person in the pew.

Please accept the beer drinking, smoking, gambling, and foul-mouthed Catholics as brothers in Christ, but not as role-models.

 

[Zooey]

I have never known about it.

Does these people live in secluded area or something? I mean where I come from, most people does not drink alcohol very much. It does not mean that I do not know that there are some people out there who drinks more than where I come from.

There are actually more holiness churches than most people might think…Now, many have become less strict with time, but there is also a large-ish group called “Conservative Holiness” churches who are even more stringent than I have described. ( I have heard of a woman student being suspended from college for having a hair cut during summer vacation…She couldn’t go back until it grew out again…)
The Free Methodists have become much more close to other evangelical denominations, even mainstream churches. So have Wesleyans. But there are still a** lot** of these folks, only most of them don’t stand out as much as, say, Fundamentalist Baptists, because they are (thankfully!!) less likely to be trying to convert all of you Catholics. So you don’t notice them as much.
The Nazarenes are the best known, probably. Odd: when I was growing up, Nazarenes were considered somewhat “liberal” compared to other holiness churches…

You know, I loved it when Scriabin said that the “holiest Christians…are Catholics”. My grandmother had a dear, dear friend when she was a young mom, who was an Irish Catholic lady; they got along so well, and spent so much time together, because there were so many other women in the town who thought they were both “too religious”.

 

[McKevin]

turning spiritual formation for the next CCHP retreat into a drinking party. Didn’t the retreat these guys participated in wreak any change at all in their behavior?

I have kept in touch with some of the CRHP guys and it has indeed had a positive impact on a few of their walks with Christ. But it could be so much better.

 

[McKevin]

By taking the Lord’s name in vain do you mean God**** or simply accidently saying, “Oh, my God” ? I ask because I have been told that both are offensive to some groups

Unfortunately, it is the worst of the above choices

 

[McKevin]

there’s plenty of Catholics who do not live their lives this way, you need to seek them out.

I have been blessed to find a few, but I attend a huge parish (almost 3500 families), and I don’t run in to those few very often.

 

[McKevin]

I had choir practice last night in the church instead of the rehearsal room, and even in there they were cursing - just some commonly used words, here’s one example, we were rehearsing this piece and the words are “oh what a fortaste of glory divine…” and as the director stopped us one of the guys yells out "d*** it!!* really loud because he missed his note…now is this okay by Catholic standards?

I had an intercessory prayer meeting with a leader in the church who is on the staff, and before our prayer I told him of my sister’s decision to begin RCIA, , and he say’s “you gotta be sh**in me” . I mean, I don’t know…this is the toughest thing for me to adjust to.

 

[Mommyof02green]

I had choir practice last night in the church instead of the rehearsal room, and even in there they were cursing - just some commonly used words, here’s one example, we were rehearsing this piece and the words are “oh what a fortaste of glory divine…” and as the director stopped us one of the guys yells out "d*** it!!* really loud because he missed his note…now is this okay by Catholic standards?

I’m not going to say what he did was right, however, I can see that happening here and there with some of our choir members. Reheasal is at the end of the day, they may of already had a hard day, maybe something went wrong at work, and missing a note or 2 could of send him over the edge. Does it make it right? Of course not, but we all are human and at times saything that we don’t mean.

I had an intercessory prayer meeting with a leader in the church who is on the staff, and before our prayer I told him of my sister’s decision to begin RCIA, , and he say’s “you gotta be sh**in me” . I mean, I don’t know…this is the toughest thing for me to adjust to.

Now I have to admit our RCIA director would NOT say anything like that… I’ve heard him say things like “It’s about time” or “Really???”…

I would like to remind you that this is just one parish, one group of Catholics…They may not be as “holy” as you would like or expect. I would seek out another parish.

All Catholic Parishes, should be the same, we all teach the same stuff, we all have the same rules to follow. However, sadly the parishes aren’t the same because we are All human. Some people do a better job following Christ then others. I just think you need a new set of people to be with… I would try the Catholic Church down the street and around the corner.

Oh and I wouldn’t be afraid to speak up and say, “I like you and all, but that language is offense to me. Not only do I think it’s offense to me, but I think that it is offense to God because…”