C
ChunkMonk
Guest
You can argue all you want, Scripture and Tradition are clear: the atheist cannot be saved if he remains an atheist.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Abou Ben Adhem
By Leigh Hunt
Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold:—
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the presence in the room he said,
“What writest thou?”—The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, “The names of those who love the Lord.”
“And is mine one?” said Abou. “Nay, not so,”
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, “I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men.”
The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben Adhem’s name led all the rest.
By Leigh Hunt
Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold:—
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the presence in the room he said,
“What writest thou?”—The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, “The names of those who love the Lord.”
“And is mine one?” said Abou. “Nay, not so,”
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, “I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men.”
The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben Adhem’s name led all the rest.
J
JustLamb
Guest
Oh yes they do…
J
JustLamb
Guest
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
J
JustLamb
Guest
As ever you thrive on sin and not goodness
Jesus’ commandments were simple: Love God and Love Thy Neighbour.
God is epitomised in Creation, the fields, the animals… Love Thy Neighbour speaks for itself. My village does all that.
Christ died to forgive our sins. Why then bang on about sin when it is already forgiven?
Christ will judge. He will be the justice. Is it not better to focus on the goodness side of the scale? If you were defending a person would you not focus on the good that person has done? Would you not try to make the prosecution case incredulous?
My point is this: On balance, if this village were to be judged en-masse before God we could say:
Now. Who will disagree that those three laws of life, childhood and respect are wrong?
Jesus’ commandments were simple: Love God and Love Thy Neighbour.
God is epitomised in Creation, the fields, the animals… Love Thy Neighbour speaks for itself. My village does all that.
Christ died to forgive our sins. Why then bang on about sin when it is already forgiven?
Christ will judge. He will be the justice. Is it not better to focus on the goodness side of the scale? If you were defending a person would you not focus on the good that person has done? Would you not try to make the prosecution case incredulous?
My point is this: On balance, if this village were to be judged en-masse before God we could say:
- We protected life
- We protected childhood
- We protected respect.
Now. Who will disagree that those three laws of life, childhood and respect are wrong?
D
De_Maria
Guest
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.…While most in this village would describe themselves as atheist they are, maybe, more Christian than most Christians.
God has written His law in all men’s hearts. Atheist and Christian.
I’m not sure your point though. Are you saying that because Atheists can be kind hearted, there is no use for the Church?
C
ChunkMonk
Guest
You cannot know what they think and feel in their hearts. Judging them as good because of external.appearances is wrong.
J
JustLamb
Guest
So you judge them as evil without seeing them?
C
ChunkMonk
Guest
You said they were atheists. Sins against God are worse than sins against other people.
P
PickyPicky
Guest
You think being an atheist is a sin, and is a worse sin than those we commit against our fellows? How would you justify such a belief? Atheism is simply an opinion; murder, theft, rape, torture, enslavement are sinful actions.
J
JustLamb
Guest
I reiterate: As ever you thrive on sin and not goodness.
C
ChunkMonk
Guest
You shall love the Lord your God above all things.
The first comandments are the commandments concerning our relationship with God.
To sin against God is more heinous than to sin against man. Atheism is a denial of God. God sees our opinions and beliefs as actions.
The first comandments are the commandments concerning our relationship with God.
To sin against God is more heinous than to sin against man. Atheism is a denial of God. God sees our opinions and beliefs as actions.
V
Verdanty
Guest
Doesn’t matter. Actions against Gods will (Masturbation, Atheism etc) are considered vastly worse than crimes against other humans such as murder or rape.
The Summa Theologica has quite a lot to say about it.
The Summa Theologica has quite a lot to say about it.
P
PJM
Guest
For those who may read this POST, please refer back to my previous POST to understand this conversation.
My dear Friend in Christ,
Thank you for criticizing the author [me] and NOT the messenger God
It would seem that either I was very inarticulate in my last POST, or you’re struggling with the issue of TRUTH.
The 10 Commandments: Exo. 20:
And God spoke all these words, saying,
3."You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain;
4. "Honor your father and your mother,
5. "You shall not kill. “
6. "You shall not commit adultery”.
7. "You shall not steal”.
8. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”
9. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; or property”
10. “you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbors.”
True; BUT nothing in God’s Creation except humanity [Gen 1:26-27]
ACTUALLY emulates our God. Only humanity CAN , Know, Love, Serve and OBEY God
Christ died so our sins MIGHT be forgiven [HIS WAY]
The Protestant theory of justification through Christ atonement is lacking is several KEY ways, seems to me to be an understatement.
It is critically important to recall that this Sola Fide historically is a Post Reformation creation; some 1,400 YEARS after the bible was fully authored; [the bible IS a Catholic book] and it was after this extreme length of time, that Luther, an agnostic priest, presumed to change the Teachings of the RCC, and claim that Christ that it Christ Atonement that is sufficient to effect ones Justification. But friend, that is not actually biblical, nor is it morally sound thinking.
I do NOT make lite of the importance of LOVE that the bible [and the RCC] teach. Indeed some years ago I was asked by a student to describe the bible is a SINGLE word. The WORD I choose is Love. But to assume with all of its implications that this negates ALL other teachings in the bible, including GODS 10 Commandments is incomprehensibly reckless, and lack mature reflection and prayer.
My dear Friend in Christ,
Thank you for criticizing the author [me] and NOT the messenger God
It would seem that either I was very inarticulate in my last POST, or you’re struggling with the issue of TRUTH.
The 10 Commandments: Exo. 20:
And God spoke all these words, saying,
- "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” You shall have no other gods before me.”
3."You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain;
4. "Honor your father and your mother,
5. "You shall not kill. “
6. "You shall not commit adultery”.
7. "You shall not steal”.
8. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”
9. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; or property”
10. “you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbors.”
God is epitomized in Creation
True; BUT nothing in God’s Creation except humanity [Gen 1:26-27]
ACTUALLY emulates our God. Only humanity CAN , Know, Love, Serve and OBEY God
Christ died to forgive our sins. Why then bang on about sin when it is already forgiven?
Christ died so our sins MIGHT be forgiven [HIS WAY]
The Protestant theory of justification through Christ atonement is lacking is several KEY ways, seems to me to be an understatement.
It is critically important to recall that this Sola Fide historically is a Post Reformation creation; some 1,400 YEARS after the bible was fully authored; [the bible IS a Catholic book] and it was after this extreme length of time, that Luther, an agnostic priest, presumed to change the Teachings of the RCC, and claim that Christ that it Christ Atonement that is sufficient to effect ones Justification. But friend, that is not actually biblical, nor is it morally sound thinking.
I do NOT make lite of the importance of LOVE that the bible [and the RCC] teach. Indeed some years ago I was asked by a student to describe the bible is a SINGLE word. The WORD I choose is Love. But to assume with all of its implications that this negates ALL other teachings in the bible, including GODS 10 Commandments is incomprehensibly reckless, and lack mature reflection and prayer.
My point is this: On balance, if this village were to be judged en-masse before God we could say:
We protected life
We protected childhood
We protected respect
AND GOD would reply…. AND!!!
What about MY COMMANDMENTS?
Matt.19:17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
Attempting to dictate to GOD how He MUST save you; or trying to negotiate your salvation is impossible.
Seek God’s TRUTHS friend; that is the way to salvation, and keep up the charity.
I will also point out, God will judge your village; RATHER He will judge individually each Soul in it based upon what he GOD has made POSSIBLE for them to know.
May God guide you to HIS truths,
J
JustLamb
Guest
Our three laws satisfy the ten commandments. Only rather than following laws that tell us what not to do we follow laws that tell us in the positive.The 10 Commandments: Exo. 20:
And God spoke all these words, saying,
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” You shall have no other gods before me.” LIFE/CHILDHOOD/RESPECT (God respected Life and so saved the Israelites, having created Life in the first place… Other gods was a reference to Molech which demanded child sacrifice in a furnace [Lev 18])
3."You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; LIFE/CHILDHOODRESPECT
- “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day” LIFE/CHILDHOOD/RESPECT (We all need a break to have a healthy life. Doesn’t matter what day that person’s Sabbath is. The Church moved it to Sunday…)
- "Honor your father and your mother, LIFE/CHILDHOOD/RESPECT
- “You shall not kill.” LIFE/CHILDHOOD/RESPECT
- "You shall not commit adultery”. LIFE/CHILDHOOD/RESPECT (Being unfaithful to a partner can destroy lives, but then so does an abusive marriage)
- "You shall not steal”. LIFE/CHILDHOOD//RESPECT
- "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” LIFE/CHILDHOOD/RESPECT (If the neighbour has children then they too will suffer.)
- “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; or property” RESPECT
- “you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbors.” RESPECT
Jesus gave laws in the positive, not the negative.
Love Thy Neighbour PROTECT LIFE/CHILDHOOD/RESPECT
And from that law hangs all other laws and prophets.
Psalm 72 1-4
Endow the king with your justice, O God, the royal son with your righteousness.
He will judge your people in righteousness, your afflicted ones with justice.
The mountains will bring prosperity to the people, the hills the fruit of righteousness.
He will defend the afflicted among the people LIFE
and save the children of the needy; CHILDHOOD
he will crush the oppressor. RESPECT
“Life is easy when you consider things from another point of view”
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P
PickyPicky
Guest
Somewhat odd to be told that my offence — holding a particular opinion on a widely disputed topic — is worse than mass murder or serial rape, but I’m interested to see that the Church does not quite say this. She does not hold that atheism is especially a sin against God (indeed I imagine that any sin could be called a sin against God) but that it is a sin against “the virtue of religion”. And she doesn’t stipulate that atheism is necessarily a more serious offence than others but that, to the contrary, its imputability depends on intention and circumstances.
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J
JustLamb
Guest
I did post this in non-Catholic religions for a purpose.
Maybe I should have used a lower case ‘c’ for christian…
2 Cor 5 14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
Maybe I should have used a lower case ‘c’ for christian…
2 Cor 5 14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
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C
ChunkMonk
Guest
Your sin is more likely to send you to Hell than those sins, certainly. And anyway, sin of murder ia a sin against the Fifth Commandment, whearas atheism is a sin against the First Commandment.
The Catholic Church does hold that atheism constitutes mortal sin.
Taken from the Summa:
“The precepts pertaining to religion are given precedence (Exodus 20) as being of greatest importance. Now the order of precepts is proportionate to the order of virtues, since the precepts of the Law prescribe acts of virtue. Therefore religion is the chief of the moral virtues.”
I don’t know how you came to your conclusions that atheism is not a mortal sin, or what Church teaching you are citing by saying atheism is less serious an offense than murder, or that atheism is not a sin against the First Commandment and therefore constitutes a sin who’s target is God, rather tham fellow men.
The Catholic Church does hold that atheism constitutes mortal sin.
Taken from the Summa:
“The precepts pertaining to religion are given precedence (Exodus 20) as being of greatest importance. Now the order of precepts is proportionate to the order of virtues, since the precepts of the Law prescribe acts of virtue. Therefore religion is the chief of the moral virtues.”
I don’t know how you came to your conclusions that atheism is not a mortal sin, or what Church teaching you are citing by saying atheism is less serious an offense than murder, or that atheism is not a sin against the First Commandment and therefore constitutes a sin who’s target is God, rather tham fellow men.
P
PJM
Guest
My FRIEND, like I said
YOUR struggling greatly with TRUTH
And clearly attempting to command GOD to accept what you are willing to offer Him instead of OBEYING Him in humility.
Good luck with that, your going to need it
Blessings,
Patrick
YOUR struggling greatly with TRUTH
And clearly attempting to command GOD to accept what you are willing to offer Him instead of OBEYING Him in humility.
Good luck with that, your going to need it
Blessings,
Patrick
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