When is NFP licit?

[mpi]

When is NFP licit?
When is NFP to avoid pregnancy a venial sin? When is it a mortal sin?

Do you think American Catholics have rejected God’s commandment to go forth and multiply? If so, what should be done?

 

[RobertLGarrett]

mpi:

The vast majority of people I know using NFP to avoid pregnancy have big homes and 6 figure incomes and no health problems. How this is not sinning is beyond me. They use the excuse about financial difficulties even though they could rent a home at 1/4 the monthly cost of what they are currently paying for a mortgage.

RobertLGarrett:

Then you have a very small circle. You shouldn’t judge all Catholics on such a small group.

I agree that we have a problem in the society as a whole with selfishness, and this includes Catholics. However, we need to teach NFP as part of the culture of life. Working in harmony with their bodies and understanding the fedundity of marriage will lead to larger families - maybe not the 8-10 kid families some of my fellow NFP-users at our parish, but even more 4-5 kid families would be good to see. As I said, many more Catholics (the “vast majority” one could say) use artificial birth control.

mpi:

This link points out the degree to which American Catholics (even the devout ones attending Mass weekly) have rejected God’s commandment to go forth and multiply.

popline.org/docs/0979/077988.html

So I am judging Catholics by the statistics, not simply the Catholics I know. The statistics show an embrace of the culture of death. I am sure that most of these Catholics with small families have some excuse for keeping their families small. Most of these excuses are junk.

The problem is that I think most of these Catholics have a clear conscience. Homilies should make it clear that those who can have large families, but choose not to do so, are being immoral and sinning by purposely avoiding pregnancy.

Your statistics do not show a breakdown of NFP-using Catholics versus artificial birth control-using Catholics. Since you seem to be basing your conclusions off of the total population, your conclusions are inaccurate.

In order to determine the truth, we need to know:

What % of Catholics use artificial birth control?

What % of Catholics use NFP (I’ve read 3.6% somewhere)?

What % of Catholics use no family planning whatsoever?

Then, you need to compare the family sizes of those three groups.

In my experience, NFP-users have larger families than those who use artificial birth control, and more Catholics use artificial birth control. If anyone has the stats to back that up, I would appreciate it.

 

[06convert]

I’m confused. Where did all of the above quotes come from? A private message?

NFP can be used inappropriately if you are using it without the knowlege of your spouse, using it selfishly, using it to time sexual relations outside of marriage, or using it in correlation with unnatural methods.

Catholics have not rejected God’s commandments. God wants us to go out and multiply his disciples, not procreate like rabbits. If this were the case we wouldn’t value the vows of chastity taken by nuns, brothers and priests.

NFP can be used to prevent a pregnancy for as long as you want. However, it’s important to examine the reasons why. Most people use NFP plan on having kids at some point, just not right now for some reason or another. God allows us to use natural methods to delay a pregnancy. The important thing is that God’s will be done. Both individuals have to be open to God’s will.

God gave us free will and intelligence to choose if we want to be parents, when we want to be parents and how many kids we want. Of course he can override this easily at anytime (ie. twins, triplets, etc) Typically though he respects our free will to choose. He just asks us to do this naturally without using methods that

There is nothing forcing us to be parents. Although most people that are a truly Christian couple see that children are just one of the many joys of a persons life. Regardless though we aren’t required.

Lastly read: Humanae Vitae On The Regulation of Birth

Read the whole Encyclical here.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

Sorry for the confusion 06convert. The quotes came from the off-topic discussion from the Humanae Vitae thread. mpi was asked by another poster to take it to another thread, so he did.

Here is the very first post by mpi in that thread…you can read the rest of the discourse from there.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4618394&postcount=86
"mpi:

Most Americans who practice NFP to avoid pregnancy are sinning by doing so. The Catholic church condemns the use of NFP to avoid pregnancy, except when their are grave circumstances. Perhaps legitimate circu,stances would include 1. amputation of multiple limbs preventing husband from earning a living, 2. woman is taking life-saving medication that is known to cause evere fetal abnormalities.
Reply With Quote

I’m confused. Where did all of the above quotes come from? A private message?

NFP can be used inappropriately if you are using it without the knowlege of your spouse, using it selfishly, using it to time sexual relations outside of marriage, or using it in correlation with unnatural methods.

Catholics have not rejected God’s commandments. God wants us to go out and multiply his disciples, not procreate like rabbits. If this were the case we wouldn’t value the vows of chastity taken by nuns, brothers and priests.

NFP can be used to prevent a pregnancy for as long as you want. However, it’s important to examine the reasons why. Most people use NFP plan on having kids at some point, just not right now for some reason or another. God allows us to use natural methods to delay a pregnancy. The important thing is that God’s will be done. Both individuals have to be open to God’s will.

God gave us free will and intelligence to choose if we want to be parents, when we want to be parents and how many kids we want. Of course he can override this easily at anytime (ie. twins, triplets, etc) Typically though he respects our free will to choose. He just asks us to do this naturally without using methods that

There is nothing forcing us to be parents. Although most people that are a truly Christian couple see that children are just one of the many joys of a persons life. Regardless though we aren’t required.

Lastly read: Humanae Vitae On The Regulation of Birth

Read the whole Encyclical here.

 

[mpi]

NFP can be used inappropriately if you are using it without the knowlege of your spouse, using it selfishly, using it to time sexual relations outside of marriage, or using it in correlation with unnatural methods.

This is very true.

Catholics have not rejected God’s commandments. God wants us to go out and multiply his disciples, not procreate like rabbits. If this were the case we wouldn’t value the vows of chastity taken by nuns, brothers and priests.

And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
– Genesis 1: 22-23 (KJV)

First commandment is being rejected by Catholics in the Western world. Their TFR (children per woman) is less than 2.1, which is below replacement level. God didn’t intend for us to multiply by a number less than 1, IMO. Multiply by 1 and the TFR remains 2.1.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

When is NFP licit?

NFP is a means not an end, thus the intent would determine if licit

When is NFP to avoid pregnancy a venial sin? When is it a mortal sin?

A rather strange question and probably not well answered. Some examples of mortal sins aided by NFP are desire to never bare a child within a marriage, or to engage in nonreproductive sex outside of marriage. A venial sin aided by NFP would be more as not including the spouse in all NFP knowledge

Do you think American Catholics have rejected God’s commandment to go forth and multiply? If so, what should be done?

I do not think that is the case. If you look ay population growth it is rising. In the 1970 we scared a lot of people with the over population theory. Add artifical birth control and you see a change today however the change is just that, no need to over react to today’s birth rates.

This is very true.

And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
– Genesis 1: 22-23 (KJV)

First commandment is being rejected by Catholics in the Western world. Their TFR (children per woman) is less than 2.1, which is below replacement level. God didn’t intend for us to multiply by a number less than 1, IMO. Multiply by 1 and the TFR remains 2.1.

I looked at the article you mentioned and find it being misunderstood. Sorry to shed this light for you however what you are looking at is education! In the 1970-1990 we saw educated people greatly slow their birth rates. Today that trend is changing back to sustainable levels. Simply put we as a society went from child overload to minimal children, and now are moving back toward 2 children per house.

 

[mpi]

Moving back toward 2 is still under 2.1 Yes TFRs have rebounded but not enough to be considered “multiplying”.

The US is close to 2 for Catholics. Western European Catholics are much lower.

 

[1ke]

When is NFP licit?

The Church teaches it may be used for a just reason that conforms with the “generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood” and should “conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality.”

The Church does not give a list of just reasons. Couples must discern this individually through prayer.

When is NFP to avoid pregnancy a venial sin? When is it a mortal sin?

That is individual to the couple and should be discerned through counseling with their priest. What may be a just reason for one couple may not be for another.

Do you think American Catholics have rejected God’s commandment to go forth and multiply? If so, what should be done?

I think many aspects of American culture make it difficult for couples to have large families. Only **part **of that is the internal disposition of the couple towards children influenced by the anti-child ethos of our culture.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Moving back toward 2 is still under 2.1 Yes TFRs have rebounded but not enough to be considered “multiplying”.

The US is close to 2 for Catholics. Western European Catholics are much lower.

I have a feeling you are not understanding the math. World population is growing. For only 40 years have peope had good control of birth rate, that is only 2 generations. Population control will be okay it is not a big issue. We should not try to out breed other people. By the way no catholic is obligated to produce any child.

 

[mpi]

Population control will be okay it is not a big issue.

Tell that to the women who had forced abortions in China. Tell that to the Jews killed by the Nazis. I don’t now how else to interpret your sentence - maybe it was just a grammatical mistake.

 

[mpi]

One poster says that couples need to “discern through prayer” if NFP is for them. I don’t think that the CCC says it should be deiscerned through prayer. The CCC says “…the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria…”
This sounds like the exact opposite of discerning something through prayer. Prayer is a good thing, but it is not what the Church calls for when discerning if NFP to avoid pregnancy is right for a couple.

2368
A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.
2369
“By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood.”
2370
Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality… . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle … involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

 

[mpi]

afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i7iy5b3DJryFJxuwzhzb224A4tRQ

Pope Benedict says:

The 81-year-old pope’s message Friday to a seminar on the encyclical also reaffirmed that the rhythm method is an acceptable form of contraception for couples in “dire circumstances” who need to space their children.

Dire circumstances. Dire circumstances. Dire circumstances.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Tell that to the women who had forced abortions in China. Tell that to the Jews killed by the Nazis. I don’t now how else to interpret your sentence - maybe it was just a grammatical mistake.

What do forced abortions and killing Jews have to do with population control? In the US alone roughly 4 million children are born each year (that is more than the population of the US in 1776), another 2 million are lost to abortion, and roughly 6 million were not conceived as a result of contraceptives. So today we produce 4 million children which is a perfectly acceptable number if life expectancy is 70 that is a population of 280 million, if life expectancy is 80 that is a population of 320 million, if life expectancy is 90 that is a population of 360 million. All are sustainable numbers

 

[mpi]

What do forced abortions and killing Jews have to do with population control? In the US alone roughly 4 million children are born each year (that is more than the population of the US in 1776), another 2 million are lost to abortion, and roughly 6 million were not conceived as a result of contraceptives. So today we produce 4 million children which is a perfectly acceptable number if life expectancy is 70 that is a population of 280 million, if life expectancy is 80 that is a population of 320 million, if life expectancy is 90 that is a population of 360 million. All are sustainable numbers

God commanded us to go forth and multiply - not use a leftist notion of “sustainable” population.

 

[ljprevo]

We are using NFP to try and get pregnant.

 

[mpi]

We are using NFP to try and get pregnant.

I think that is great and I wish you the best of luck. Was using NFP to get pregnant the focus of your NFP classes during marriage prep?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

NFP is a sacrifice. I really doubt people who actually practice NFP do so with a contraceptive mentality, Especially for an entire marriage.

The temptation from media, and unfortunately from doctors to use contraception is great. If a couple weren’t honestly trying to determine God’s will…why put all the energy into learning NFP. It is something that you have to follow every day.

Also, I believe it is presumptuous to think people with small families are selfish. I myself had only one sibling, 7 years my junior. My parents did not use contraceptives or NFP. They struggled with infertility. They wanted more.

 

[mpi]

NFP is a sacrifice. I really doubt people who actually practice NFP do so with a contraceptive mentality, Especially for an entire marriage.

The temptation from media, and unfortunately from doctors to use contraception is great. If a couple weren’t honestly trying to determine God’s will…why put all the energy into learning NFP. It is something that you have to follow every day.

Also, I believe it is presumptuous to think people with small families are selfish. I myself had only one sibling, 7 years my junior. My parents did not use contraceptives or NFP. They struggled with infertility. They wanted more.

I don’t want to judge individual couples who have small families because I don’t know what infertility or other problems they have. So I am judging Catholics as a group in the Western world, based on the doctrine of God’s Catholic Church.

The stats are clear though. Catholics had much larger families during the depression than they do now. The only explanation I can come up with is ABC, abortion, and misuse of NFP. If you have another I would love to hear it.

 

[PaulinVA]

mpi,

God did not tell you and me to “go forth and multiply”. He said that to Adam and Eve.

I agreed, as part of my marriage vows, to lovingly accept the children that God would send.

I’m curious to know what your agenda is. Do you have a family size that you think is the minimum to show that people are following the Gospel?

Why do you think the larger families of the depression era were somehow more holy?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

God commanded us to go forth and multiply - not use a leftist notion of “sustainable” population.

We are multipling the US alone has gone from 4 million to 320 million, which is a lot of multipling. World wide there are probably 80-100 million births per year; everyone invited to be catholic. Good times