When is NFP licit?

[bookgirl32]

The only individuals I am judging are those many couples that I personally know who use NFP to avoid pregnancy even though there are no circumstances in their life that would be “grave” enough to avoid having further children.

How do you know this? My husband and I are using NFP right now and from the outside, even to some of our friends, it looks as if we just don’t feel like it. Financially we’re fine, our first child is almost two, and we both seem to be in good health. The fact that there is a serious issue that we choose to tell no one outside of our family and extremely close circle of friends is no one’s business, so no one knows. Can you say you know the most intinmate workings of their relationship and why they would be using NFP? Or are you speculating?

 

[mpi]

How do you know this? My husband and I are using NFP right now and from the outside, even to some of our friends, it looks as if we just don’t feel like it. Financially we’re fine, our first child is almost two, and we both seem to be in good health. The fact that there is a serious issue that we choose to tell no one outside of our family and extremely close circle of friends is no one’s business, so no one knows. Can you say you know the most intinmate workings of their relationship and why they would be using NFP? Or are you speculating?

Oh. Then I guess the 5 young couples I know using NFP and who are financially well-off all have some serious issue they aren’t disclosing. I am not into moral relativistic arguments that all behaviour can be explained away.

 

[bookgirl32]

Oh. Then I guess the 5 young couples I know using NFP and who are financially well-off all have some serious issue they aren’t disclosing.

I don’t know that, now, do I? And neither do you, that is the point.

I am not into moral relativistic arguments that all behaviour can be explained away.

These arguments, hopefully, include a provision for extreme forms of judgementalism without concrete basis.

And you didn’t answer my question, did you? Do you have some way of knowing that there is no serious issue, or are you speculating?

 

[maryjk]

Oh. Then I guess the 5 young couples I know using NFP and who are financially well-off all have some serious issue they aren’t disclosing.

Could be.

But since their physical health isn’t any of your business, there is no reason for you to know. And just because they make a lot of money, doesn’t mean they have a lot of money. They may be taking care of parents or other relatives. They may be writing a check for a couple of thousand each month for past financial mistakes. They could be living from one paycheck to another, but putting on a good front.

But I guess it is easier to condemn them.

I know people look at me, with one child and wonder. But too bad for them. Maybe they should spend more time with their own sins, rather than imagine possible sins of mine.

 

[mpi]

Could be.

But since their physical health isn’t any of your business, there is no reason for you to know. And just because they make a lot of money, doesn’t mean they have a lot of money. They may be taking care of parents or other relatives. They may be writing a check for a couple of thousand each month for past financial mistakes. They could be living from one paycheck to another, but putting on a good front.

But I guess it is easier to condemn them.

I know people look at me, with one child and wonder. But too bad for them. Maybe they should spend more time with their own sins, rather than imagine possible sins of mine.

Catholics in the Western world have embraced the culture of death. Whatever “letter of the law” Catholics are complying with by using NFP to avoid pregnancy, I assure you that the “spirit of the law” is nowhere to be found in their hearts. Too many Catholics are influenced by social factors in determing their “ideal” family size.

 

[bookgirl32]

Catholics in the Western world have embraced the culture of death. Whatever “letter of the law” Catholics are complying with by using NFP to avoid pregnancy, I assure you that the “spirit of the law” is nowhere to be found in their hearts. Too many Catholics are influenced by social factors in determing their “ideal” family size.

Are you Catholic? I’m assuming so. You keep referring to the “Western world” so you may be Eastern Catholic? Even so, Roman or Eastern, if you are Catholic you believe in the absolute teaching authority of the Magesterium. If you think that NFP is wrong, you are in disagreement with the Church. I don’t think the Church is wrong.

 

[StAnastasia]

How do you know this? My husband and I are using NFP right now and from the outside, even to some of our friends, it looks as if we just don’t feel like it. Financially we’re fine, our first child is almost two, and we both seem to be in good health. The fact that there is a serious issue that we choose to tell no one outside of our family and extremely close circle of friends is no one’s business, so no one knows. Can you say you know the most intinmate workings of their relationship and why they would be using NFP? Or are you speculating?

bookgirl32, if mpi doesn’t pry into your private medical life and that of other couples, who can we count on to do such prying?

 

[mpi]

Are you Catholic? I’m assuming so. You keep referring to the “Western world” so you may be Eastern Catholic? Even so, Roman or Eastern, if you are Catholic you believe in the absolute teaching authority of the Magesterium. If you think that NFP is wrong, you are in disagreement with the Church. I don’t think the Church is wrong.

Wrong.

The CCC says that NFP can be used for “serious” reasons to space children. I suggest that couples today do not use “serious” reasons. The CCC is clear that NFP is NOT licit in all cases. I suggest that it is attitudes like yours which basically twist Catholic teaching into saying it is OK at all times.

This is basically a discussion of the word “serious”.

 

[PaulinVA]

mpi, once again, what is the purpose of this thread?

I just don’t get your judgementalism. Are you suggesting that, when attending mass, each of us wear a little name plate that has our name, the size of our family, our family planning method, and any serious reasons to avoid conception? No, of course you are not. Because that would be stupid.

So, what do you want? Only about 3% of Catholics use NFP, from what I gather. You are saying that those couples, the only ones following Church teaching on the method of family planning are sinning, because they are abusing it in practice.

I am not buying it. Since you do not know the reasons people do what they do, you can not judge. You see a family with one child and assume that they are using ABC or abusing NFP, and that is just not a logical conclusion.

For a couple using NFP, every month there is a possibility that they will try to conceive, or not care what day it is. There is a possibility they will read the chart incorrectly. That is being open to life, which is what we are supposed to be.

I would suggest that you redirect your judgementalism to the 97% of Catholic couples who do NOT use NFP. Much more fertile ground, if you’ll excuse the pun.

 

[mpi]

mpi, once again, what is the purpose of this thread?

I just don’t get your judgementalism. Are you suggesting that, when attending mass, each of us wear a little name plate that has our name, the size of our family, our family planning method, and any serious reasons to avoid conception? No, of course you are not. Because that would be stupid.

So, what do you want? Only about 3% of Catholics use NFP, from what I gather. You are saying that those couples, the only ones following Church teaching on the method of family planning are sinning, because they are abusing it in practice.

I am not buying it. Since you do not know the reasons people do what they do, you can not judge. You see a family with one child and assume that they are using ABC or abusing NFP, and that is just not a logical conclusion.

For a couple using NFP, every month there is a possibility that they will try to conceive, or not care what day it is. There is a possibility they will read the chart incorrectly. That is being open to life, which is what we are supposed to be.

I would suggest that you redirect your judgementalism to the 97% of Catholic couples who do NOT use NFP. Much more fertile ground, if you’ll excuse the pun.

You are insightful in your post. There is much “fertile ground” among those practicing ABC.

But, the core of what I am suggesting is that those Catholics practicing NFP are the Church’s leaders. If these couples practiced NFP more in line with the CCC’s direction to have “serious” motives to avoid pregnancy, the end result would be larger family sizes among Catholics practicing NFP. People engage in “social copying”. I suggest that if those currently practicing NFP began having 7,8,9… kids that they would inspire the ABC Catholics to second guess what their notion of an “ideal family size” really is. Perhaps they would join the NFP crowd.

 

[maryjk]

You are insightful in your post. There is much “fertile ground” among those practicing ABC.

But, the core of what I am suggesting is that those Catholics practicing NFP are the Church’s leaders. If these couples practiced NFP more in line with the CCC’s direction to have “serious” motives to avoid pregnancy, the end result would be larger family sizes among Catholics practicing NFP. People engage in “social copying”. I suggest that if those currently practicing NFP began having 7,8,9… kids that they would inspire the ABC Catholics to second guess what their notion of an “ideal family size” really is. Perhaps they would join the NFP crowd.

But the core of what you are suggesting is based on a flaw. No one knows that I use NFP. Its not like I post my charts on the wall of the church.

The couples that advertise that they use NFP, have many children. In fact the couple that teaches NFP at our parish has 8 living children. The other couple that is also certified to teach it, has 5 living children. One is less than 6 months old, so they aren’t done yet.

Your attitude about NFP is based on flawed thinking. You are condemning all that use NFP to avoid, when in fact, you really don’t know anything about it.

 

[PaulinVA]

You are insightful in your post. There is much “fertile ground” among those practicing ABC.

But, the core of what I am suggesting is that those Catholics practicing NFP are the Church’s leaders. If these couples practiced NFP more in line with the CCC’s direction to have “serious” motives to avoid pregnancy, the end result would be larger family sizes among Catholics practicing NFP. People engage in “social copying”. I suggest that if those currently practicing NFP began having 7,8,9… kids that they would inspire the ABC Catholics to second guess what their notion of an “ideal family size” really is. Perhaps they would join the NFP crowd.

On a practical note, if NFP couples began having 7,8,9 children, others would flee from NFP as quickly as they could. I’m just telling the truth. NFP couples seem to have more children not because NFP doesn’t work, but because they are open to life. However, people equate large families with ineffective family planning. Just saying…

I would rethink, on your part, why you think the ideal is seven or more children.

Would you care to share a little about yourself, and why you hold these views?

 

[StAnastasia]

On a practical note, if NFP couples began having 7,8,9 children, others would flee from NFP as quickly as they could. I’m just telling the truth. NFP couples seem to have more children not because NFP doesn’t work, but because they are open to life. However, people equate large families with ineffective family planning.

If we did start having nine children per family, we could more quickly reach one trillion humans and exterminate all the other animals that pollute this planet (elephants, polar bears, lions, giraffes, pandas, etc.).

9 children = 81 grandchildren = 729, ggrandhildren…59,049 in the fifth generation…4,782,969 in the seventh generation,387,420,389 or a third of a billion in eleven generations from only one Catholic family. Hooray!

StAnastasia

 

[mpi]

If we did start having nine children per family, we could more quickly reach one trillion humans and exterminate all the other animals that pollute this planet (elephants, polar bears, lions, giraffes, pandas, etc.).

9 children = 81 grandchildren = 729, ggrandhildren…59,049 in the fifth generation…4,782,969 in the seventh generation,387,420,389 or a third of a billion in eleven generations from only one Catholic family. Hooray!

StAnastasia

Great. Another Catholic who believes in the demented theory of overpopulation. No theory has been more completely debunked than “overpopulation”. Yet the culture of death/reject life crowd that embrace overpopulation still find their way into the Catholic faith.

I am personally all for having 100 million descendants in the next 11 generations.

 

[Red_Beard]

No one knows that I use NFP.

Maybe this is part of the problem. How many Catholics don’t even know what NFP is? How many priests are brave enough to preach on how harmful and sinful ABC is? How may lay people are willing to witness the same message?

We need to get the word out.

God bless,

Red Beard

 

[StAnastasia]

Great. Another Catholic who believes in the demented theory of overpopulation. No theory has been more completely debunked than “overpopulation”. Yet the culture of death/reject life crowd that embrace overpopulation still find their way into the Catholic faith.

I am personally all for having 100 million descendants in the next 11 generations.

Did I mention overpopulation? You brought that up! I merely calculated that if we want to get on with the business of exterminating all species but the human species, having nine children per family will accomplish that beautifully.

 

[StAnastasia]

Maybe this is part of the problem. How many Catholics don’t even know what NFP is?

How many even care?

 

[maryjk]

Maybe this is part of the problem. How many Catholics don’t even know what NFP is? How many priests are brave enough to preach on how harmful and sinful ABC is? How may lay people are willing to witness the same message?

We need to get the word out.

God bless,

Red Beard

So maybe I should post my charts on the wall of the church?

 

[Red_Beard]

Did I mention overpopulation? You brought that up! I merely calculated that if we want to get on with the business of exterminating all species but the human species, having nine children per family will accomplish that beautifully.

I like this because I’m # 2 of 9. I tease my wife for coming from a small family because she is #2 of 7.

StAnastasia, your remarks give away your incredibly distorted view of the human person. Man is the pinnacle of creation. Man is the only creature that God created for his own sake. One human person is far more valuable than the rest of the created universe combined.

We are so valuable, in fact, that God became man in order to redeem us. Wow.

God bless,

Red Beard

 

[bookgirl32]

Wrong.

The CCC says that NFP can be used for “serious” reasons to space children. I suggest that couples today do not use “serious” reasons. The CCC is clear that NFP is NOT licit in all cases. I suggest that it is attitudes like yours which basically twist Catholic teaching into saying it is OK at all times.

This is basically a discussion of the word “serious”.

No, this is basically a discussion of what you think you know about other’s lives. I suspect some of these “couples” you know may not even be using NFP, but you think they are since they do not have 8 children. It is actually not all that easy to get pregnant, many people have multiple miscarriages. I have two friends who would each have six children, and not three, had they not suffered miscarriages. My point is that you do not KNOW what all the circumstances are. I’m not making a case for illicitly using NFP. I’m simply stating that until it is your place to know something that is not your business, YOU simply DO NOT KNOW. Some of the couples you see may be illicitly using it, some may not. Is it your place to ask them what their situation is and demand that they tell you?