When is NFP morally acceptable in marriage?

[vluvski]

A repost from Family Life…

I am a female, 23 years old, engaged to be married next May. I have a stable, well-paying job as a chemical engineer, no debt, and respectable savings, and I am certain of my vocation to marriage and children with my fiance.
My fiance, also 23 years, is a student with negligible debt finishing his degree in computer engineering. He is actively pursuing a job in the area where I work, but as in all things, there is no guarantee that he will find something before our wedding date.
Fiance says we cannot morally practice NFP at the beginning of our marriage since we are healthy and in a good financial situation.
I say the emotional, spiritual, and yes, financial gains of delaying children constitute moral grounds for practicing NFP. I feel that the simple fact that we will be newly married and adjusting to eachother after a 15 month long-distance engagement is grounds to give ourselves some time to grow together.

1. Does the church call for ‘grave’ or simply ‘just’ reason to practice NFP? Fiance says grave, I have read just.
2. Is it possible that a couple in good physical, emotional, and financial health have a vocation to marriage without immediately having children?
3. Since getting married requires a certain degree of ‘readiness’ to have children, is marriage appropriate for a couple who is ready and willing, but where one or both individuals would prefer to wait to have children? In other words, if one of us believes we have grave or just reason to avoid pregnancy from the get-go, do we have any business getting married in the first place?
4. This question goes along with the previous, and assumes my fiance is right. Since the Church has never hesitated to make unpopular, definitive statements on controversial issues, why can I find nothing explaining that NFP is not to be practiced in otherwise healthy newlyweds because they oughtn’t be getting married if they have a grave enough circumstance to avoid pregnancy?
5. Another related question: Why does/would the Church (or at least the ‘good’ parishes) promote NFP to engaged couples if very few of them could morally practice NFP at the beginning of their married lives? Would it not be more fitting to promote NFP more exclusively to those couples in dire financial circumstance or after already having the stresses one or more children? I have an extremely hard time believing the Church would turn a blind eye to the fact that engaged couples who embrace NFP are likely practicing it to delay having children at the beginning of their marriage. If that is the case, it just seems like we’re being equipped by the Church for immoral use of NFP since it is being recommended to engaged couples.
6. Is it right to say, “If our vocation truly lies in childless parenthood, at least temporarily, God will not bless us with children until He sees fit?” This seems kind of like a cop-out, as if we don’t have a responsibility to discern that vocation with the intelligence and free will God has granted us. It’s like staring at a piece of cake and saying, “God, if you don’t want me to eat this piece of cake, make it disappear.” Eating the cake is not inherently evil, but perhaps you struggle with gluttony or have a weight probably and really shouldn’t eat the cake. It seems pretty similar to me.

I am more than happy to open a dialog on this subject, give additional background, or clarify my statements/questions.

 

[felra]

NFP can and is used by couples to limit child birth for grave reasons and also to increase likelihood of conception.

Unfortunately, too many Catholics are conditioned to see childbearing and raising children as a timing and priority thing. My question to newly wed couples is: if you entered into the sacrament of marriage but have grave/serious reason to delay childbirth, then why did you not delay getting married until you could exercise the fecundity aspect of marital conjugal love? An honest question if you think about it. Kinda turn the logic on its head here to get the proper perspective of readiness for the vocation and responsibility of marriage.

 

[KCT]

You and your fiance should discuss this w/ a trusted priest, pray together and discern. —KCT

 

[Brendan]

felra:

NFP can and is used by couples to limit child birth for grave reasons and also to increase likelihood of conception.

Felra,

The Canocal standard used in *Humanae Vitae * was ‘serious reasons’,

With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.

‘Serious Reasons’ is different that the higher standard of ‘grave’ reasons (and greater than ‘just reasons’)

“Grave Reasons” generally means very rare, often ‘life or death’ issues.

‘Just Reasons’ is for general reasons in keeping with general Christian principles.( Not kneeling at the Consecration because you are holding a baby is a “Just Reason”)

‘Serious Reasons’ is between the two, it is not to be taken lightly nor is it to be highly restrictive.

The standard for use of NFP is “Serious Reasons”

Each of those terms has a different meaning theologically, and it’s not good to confuse them.

In general, consult a good priest if you concerned if your reasons meet the criteria of “Serious”

 

[Al_Masetti]

Visit www.ccli.org which is the Web site for the Couple-to-Couple League.

They have excellent resources that they have developed and evolved over the years. Great people!

Every chance you get, visit the Blessed Sacrament and pray over it. Don’t need hours and hours there, but if you can swing it, once a day for five minutes would be great.

 

[felra]

Brendan:

Felra,

The Canocal standard used in *Humanae Vitae *was ‘serious reasons’,

‘Serious Reasons’ is different that the higher standard of ‘grave’ reasons (and greater than ‘just reasons’)

“Grave Reasons” generally means very rare, often ‘life or death’ issues.

‘Just Reasons’ is for general reasons in keeping with general Christian principles.( Not kneeling at the Consecration because you are holding a baby is a “Just Reason”)

‘Serious Reasons’ is between the two, it is not to be taken lightly nor is it to be highly restrictive.

The standard for use of NFP is “Serious Reasons”

Each of those terms has a different meaning theologically, and it’s not good to confuse them.

In general, consult a good priest if you concerned if your reasons meet the criteria of “Serious”

Opps, your right. Thanks for clarifying. With that said, my post still stands minus the “grave”. Thanks.

 

[vluvski]

Felra,
I would like to hear your take on my more specific questions, especially 4, 5, and 6. My fiance has posed the very same question, and I am just not convinced a vocation to marriage requires an immediate vocation to parenthood. Indeed, there are some who are called to marriage without children indefinitely due to infertility. On a personal level, one gets married because of a belief that he or she is better off, and more perfectly able to grow closer to God with their spouse than without. I think some people who would say an engaged or dating couple with serious reason to postpone pregnancy should not get married equate the notions of “open to children” and “not practicing NFP.”
Is not part of the premise of NFP that the marital act is still “open” to children in that there is no artificial means preventing fertilization, implantation, etc… leading to pregnancy and children?

 

[YinYangMom]

The disagreement you are having with your fiance at the moment, and with those of us in this thread stems from your relying on the ‘rules’ themselves, rather than the ‘spirit’ from which they come.

I am going to recommend you spend $4 to order Christopher West’s “Naked Without Shame” 10-cd seminar on Theology of the Body. You can order it online from The Gift Foundation. You and your fiance should take the time to listen to it and then revisit the subject of the timing of your marriage and your decision about when to utilize NFP.

Another good CD for engaged and married couples is “Marriage and the Eucharist” also by Christoper West and available for the cost of shipping only (about $1.50) from The Mary Foundation.

He helps couples understand where the laws and guidelines come from, helping them appreciated the principles handed down to man from God Himself with regard to human sexuality. Once you understand God’s plan, the rules are no longer barriers or deterrents - they aren’t even necessary - because to go against God’s plan would not even enter your heart, let alone your mind.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

vluvski:

1. Does the church call for ‘grave’ or simply ‘just’ reason to practice NFP? Fiance says grave, I have read just.

As someone pointed out, it is actually “serious reasons”.

1. Is it possible that a couple in good physical, emotional, and financial health have a vocation to marriage without immediately having children?

That is between you, your almost spouse, and God. Another issue is that you may be starting out your marriage in a disagreement about something very important. You need to resolve this with your fiance and God.

1. Since getting married requires a certain degree of ‘readiness’ to have children, is marriage appropriate for a couple who is ready and willing, but where one or both individuals would prefer to wait to have children? In other words, if one of us believes we have grave or just reason to avoid pregnancy from the get-go, do we have any business getting married in the first place?

I would talk to an orthodox priest to get more info on this one. Again, I think it’s very important for you and your fiance to be on the same page about this.

I personally don’t think that one who is not ready for children should be getting married just yet. But it really depends on why they aren’t ready.

To me it is most important that you and your finance come to some agreememnt about this. If he wants children right away but you want time to get used to being married, you may both end up with alot of resentment.

Also, if you were to practice NFP nad became pregnant anyway, would you see it as a failure or a blessing? I think your fiance really needs to know.

1. why can I find nothing explaining that NFP is not to be practiced in otherwise healthy newlyweds because they oughtn’t be getting married if they have a grave enough circumstance to avoid pregnancy?

NFP, marriage, having babies, finances…etc are all personal issues and cannot be clearly defined in black and white. What may be a serious reason to one couple may just be a selfish one to another. We cannot know eachother’s hearts.

1. Why does/would the Church (or at least the ‘good’ parishes) promote NFP to engaged couples if very few of them could morally practice NFP at the beginning of their married lives?

The Church (good ones anyway) promote NFP to newly engaged couples because it is a major issue to them. Many contracepting couples have never even heard of NFP. Also, can you imagine if NFP was promoted the way you suggest?

A lot of people would take it upon themselves to gossip… “did you see who signed up for the NFP class??? They don’t have serious reasons to avoid children!!! They just want a new boat”. I think that would also prevent alot of people from learning about it.

By advising newlyweds/engaged about NFP it is simply a good time to inform them of this teaching.

1. Is it right to say, “If our vocation truly lies in childless parenthood, at least temporarily, God will not bless us with children until He sees fit?”

We are not to test the Lord. These all sound like great questions and you deserve great answers. I’m sorry I can’t give them to you, lol.

I think there is a fine line between trusting the Lord and not taking responsibility for one’s life. He expects us to use our brains but also to trust Him.

 

[Island_Oak]

vluvski:

Felra,
…I am just not convinced a vocation to marriage requires an immediate vocation to parenthood…

I would agree with you completely and add that I was married for 5 years before we had children. They were wonderful years, a gift to us as a couple which readied us for the very intense demands of parenthood in ways that simply wouldn’t have occured without that time to mature in our relationship, faith, etc.

That being said…the opinion of anyone other than your spouse on the issue of timing is quite irrelevant. This is something you two absolutely need to reconcile before you take that walk down the aisle. I would suggest perhaps several sessions with your priest as well as time for just the two of you discuss and resolve this. Parenthood requires a unity of mind and purpose–that continues well beyond merely conception. It cannot be “inflicted” on one spouse by the other–either initially nor as you determine when or how often to add to your family.

 

[frogman80]

Grave, or Just?! Well, all depends on you definition of the word! The Church has definite definitions for those words… we people tend to gum them up with our own vernacular. I could add “sensible reasons”, or “reasonable intentions”… but those also could be misunderstood! So how about this… you need a GOOD reason… You need a SERIOUS reason… You need a reason that is NOT SILLY!!!

It will take a bit of discernment, but nothing overly complicated. So maybe this might help you wade through your vocation:

The primary purpose of marriage is to bear children and to raise them. The secondary purpose of marriage is mutual love and help between spouses. (Most happy couples do just fine with the secondary purpose!)

Looking at the primary purpose of the Vocation… what is needed in order for you to have children, and raise them? Don’t think about 20 years from now… think about right now. Do you have what you need to raise a baby?

I say the emotional, spiritual, and yes, financial gains of delaying children constitute moral grounds for practicing NFP

In order for the first two (emotional / spiritual) to be moral grounds for postponing children… those same grounds would probably also prohibit you guys from getting married. And financial grounds… well that too needs to be fairly serious… most of the Chem-Es I know don’t fall into that category. Granted, you may not get to be a stay at home mother, but that alone is probably not a valid reason to postpone having children.

God will provide… this doesn’t mean you will also be financially rich… it might even mean that you will be financially “uncomfortable”!!! But he will still provide. Trusting God in this way is not the same as tempting God to catch you if you jump off a cliff, or tempting God to remove a temptation if He really doesn’t want you to do it. Having children is the main purpose of your vocation.

It is important that you and your husband are on the same page about this before you get married. Your vocation is about getting to heaven… having children will play a huge role in that… being financially comfortable probably won’t.

 

[felra]

Felra,
I would like to hear your take on my more specific questions, especially 4, 5, and 6.

I would refer you to the responses by Feanaro’s Wife who answered these points better than I could. In addition to the other resources cited, i recommend the following resources (depending on how in depth you wish to explore):

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm – THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY, sections: 1601-1666

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#III – III. THE LOVE OF HUSBAND AND WIFE**, sections: 2360-2379**

Encyclicals by John Paul II:

http://www.dads.org/humanae.asp – Humanae Vitae

http://www.dads.org/consortio.asp – Familiaris Consortio: APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION OF HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL II ON THE FAMILY

Books from an orthodox understanding:

Good News About Sex and Marriage: Answers to Your Honest Questions About Catholic Teaching – by Christopher West

Theology Of The Body For Beginners – by Christopher West

Is not part of the premise of NFP that the marital act is still “open” to children in that there is no artificial means preventing fertilization, implantation, etc… leading to pregnancy and children?

Correct. It is good to remind ourselves that God never expects more of us than He is willing to provide for. I commend you on your mature and honest inquiry and openness to resources/(name removed by moderator)ut before hand of entering into the vocation of marriage. IMO it is important that whether seeking priestly or laity (name removed by moderator)ut/counsel, that it reflect the actual teaching of the Church, and not someone’s personal opinion, i.e., each Catholics responsibility to inform and *well form *their conscience when making important decisions that refelct the mind of the Church.

 

[vluvski]

YinYangMom:

The disagreement you are having with your fiance at the moment, and with those of us in this thread stems from your relying on the ‘rules’ themselves, rather than the ‘spirit’ from which they come.

I am going to recommend you spend $4 to order Christopher West’s “Naked Without Shame” 10-cd seminar on Theology of the Body. You can order it online from The Gift Foundation. You and your fiance should take the time to listen to it and then revisit the subject of the timing of your marriage and your decision about when to utilize NFP.

Another good CD for engaged and married couples is “Marriage and the Eucharist” also by Christoper West and available for the cost of shipping only (about $1.50) from The Mary Foundation.

He helps couples understand where the laws and guidelines come from, helping them appreciated the principles handed down to man from God Himself with regard to human sexuality. Once you understand God’s plan, the rules are no longer barriers or deterrents - they aren’t even necessary - because to go against God’s plan would not even enter your heart, let alone your mind.

Both of us already own and have listened to both multiple times.
Thanks.

 

[YinYangMom]

vluvski:

Both of us already own and have listened to both multiple times.
Thanks.

Wow. And you still are not in agreement? That must be a bit frustrating.

Well it’s wonderful that you have invested the energy in learning all that you can. It sounds like you two just need to work things out with your priest then…for more personal spiritual guidance.

I could have sworn there was a part of the 10 cd set which addressed having children right away or not…and my recollection was that you are not obliged to have kids right away…that it is more ‘responsible’ to wait a few years (perhaps 2) for that marriage adjustment to kick in before bringing in a new life.

Logistically speaking…when two adult people, used to living alone and independently merge together, there are a lot of little nuances that need to be worked out - blended - it’s a real adjustment. Granted if a life comes during that time, despite NFP, then of course, out of love for each other the couple drops the issues of toilet seat up or down by the wayside so they can focus on the new life (could be a good thing in the long and short run), and all ends well.

But, my opinion means nothing for you and your fiance. This really is a matter between you, your fiance and the priest who will be presiding at your wedding.

Certainly the fact that you aren’t on the same page on this would suggest it would be prudent to delay the wedding until you do (even though it’s not a ‘rule’), as to force the issue would not be respectful on either party. To marry and practice NFP while he believes that would be wrong, places him in a compromising spiritual position. And to marry but not practice NFP while you believe that would be wrong, places you in a compromising spiritual position.

 

[Catholic2003]

When specifically discussing NFP, Humanae Vitae uses the term “well-grounded reasons”:

Recourse to Infertile Periods

1. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church concerning the moral laws governing marriage, that human intelligence has both the right and responsibility to control those forces of irrational nature which come within its ambit and to direct them toward ends beneficial to man. Others ask on the same point whether it is not reasonable in so many cases to use artificial birth control if by so doing the harmony and peace of a family are better served and more suitable conditions are provided for the education of children already born. To this question We must give a clear reply. The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.

If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church uses the term “just reasons”:

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.

 

[YinYangMom]

Catholic2003:

When specifically discussing NFP, Humanae Vitae uses the term “well-grounded reasons”:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church uses the term “just reasons”:

Those were very good. Thanks.

I recall West specifically saying it was the wisdom of the Church to leave the decision over such matters to the couples themselves…of course, after learning all one can on the subject. This couple certainly has done that part, I pray they will come to an agreement which brings peace to both of them.

 

[Catholic2003]

vluvski:

Fiance says we cannot morally practice NFP at the beginning of our marriage since we are healthy and in a good financial situation.
I say the emotional, spiritual, and yes, financial gains of delaying children constitute moral grounds for practicing NFP. I feel that the simple fact that we will be newly married and adjusting to eachother after a 15 month long-distance engagement is grounds to give ourselves some time to grow together.

I can’t quite get a handle on your fiance’s position. Could you clarify it a bit more, for example:

• Your fiance wants to try for children right away.
• Your fiance does not want to try for children right away, but believes that the Church requires it.
• Your fiance is ambivilant about wanting children right away, but is guided by his belief that the Church requires it.

Thanks!

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

Catholic2003:

I can’t quite get a handle on your fiance’s position. Could you clarify it a bit more, for example:

• Your fiance wants to try for children right away.
• Your fiance does not want to try for children right away, but believes that the Church requires it.
• Your fiance is ambivilant about wanting children right away, but is guided by his belief that the Church requires it.

Thanks!

Good questions! I have a feeling the OP will learn quite a bit if she does not already know the answers…

Malia

 

[vluvski]

YinYangMom,
We have not had the luxury of listening to these series together, which is what both of us would much prefer. I have a feeling this would help, but I just don’t see that being a possibility right now.

Catholic 2003,
Probably mostly three, a little of two. He says he would love to have time for just the two of us to spend some time together, especially considering we’ll have been engaged long-distance for awhile by the time we get married. (We went to school together, I spent a year as Catholic Campus Minister, then took my eng’r job away from him). He says he would feel selfish for postponing pregnancy, and that we shouldn’t get married if we’re not “ready for children.”
I would feel irresponsible for not postponing pregnancy. I tend to differentiate “ready for children” from being prepared for children. By prepared, I mean in a position to practice responsible parenthood. I know you’re never really ready or prepared, but there are ways to help… I don’t think I could be “prepared” for children the first night of my honeymoon in the same way I could after a year of growing together as a married couple. In that sense, postponing the wedding only postpones when I will be prepared. On the other hand, at what point are we losing faith in God’s plan by taking time for preparation? I also struggle because most of the mothers I know (all great people, and very committed to doing things the right way) who would tend to agree with my fiance seem to be absolutely stretched to their limits, and I can see their children suffering as a result. They “trust and trust” and do not seem to take responsibility for discerning their own situation and vocation to have or delay or limit children. Then they wind up with families their husbands jobs can’t support- sometimes through misfortune, other times due to their own negligence, and are unable to effectively ‘mother’ their children, thereby negating most of the benefit of being a stay at home mom. At that point, I almost think it is better to put the kids in school, day care, or something, get back on track financially to remove that stress from your life, and then reevaluate the situation. But I digress…

In response to various other posts, let me explain a few things:

My fiance and I are in agreement that a need for my income would constitute a serious reason to postpone pregnancy. I am not interested in pursuing a career once we have children. I will gladly give this up for the well-being of our children. In my field, it is not easy to get back into work if you leave, unless you have only been on maternity leave. One motivation for practicing NFP is that I could get my professional engineering certification (we would try to delay for a year and a half), which would allow me to consult from home IF and ONLY IF we had a financial need to do so, or if we had particularly angelic children (like me, of course ) who made it sensible for me to do something with my time.

I do not consider my fiance and I ‘unfit’ as parents, and we would not be devestated by a surprise pregnancy. In this sense, we are both ready for and open to new life. Babies are blessings- ALWAYS. If we got pregnant despite a prayerful decision to practice NFP, we would see that as a sign that He knew we were trying to do His will, but just didn’t ‘get it’. On the other hand, I don’t want to be one of those people who says, “Well, God is God, and if He wants us to have a child He’ll make it happen.”

Two values we agree upon are having more than one or two children- really as many as we can financially and emotionally support, maybe 3-6, and the propriety of the mother staying at home for nurturance. I don’t think we would be practicing responsible parenthood if we do not postpone pregnancy but intend to be able to emotionally and financially support a “large” family (by today’s standards, anyway).

I’ve seen people use Humanae Vitae, Christopher West, the Catechism, etc… to argue both sides. The only thing I’m really certain of is that we need to come to an agreement on this issue… before we say our vows.

Everyone’s feedback and references are greatly appreciated. My fiance will be reading this too, I think/hope. Maybe my parents too, even! Ha! Please keep them coming!!

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

vluvski:

The only thing I’m really certain of is that we need to come to an agreement on this issue… before we say our vows.

Exactly! If you two can effectively communicate with eachother about this issue and reach an agreement that respects eachother as well as God, then you will have a huge advantage in your marriage!

It took hubby and I quite awhile to realize that we were usually on the same side of an argument but just couldn’t get the other’s point, lol.

One of the reasons you need to discuss this matter with an orthodox priest is that you will get various opinions on this forum that may or may not apply to your life. Many people will say that you are completely wrong to think like you do while others will say that you are totally right. We can’t know. We don’t know you.

But if you are interested in my personal opinion, I don’t see anything wrong with wanting to “prepare” for children. If this means wanting to just enjoy being married for a bit, wanting to set up financially, etc then it is ok as long as you and your fiance agree on the terms.

But too many people get caught in the “not quite yet” circle where they are always wanting to prepare that one final thing before deciding to try and conceive. Unfortunately, many people wait too long.

I have faith that you and your fiance will work this issue out soon. Pray lots! Congrats on your upcoming marriage!

malia