When is NFP morally acceptable in marriage?

[frogman80]

I don’t think I could be “prepared” for children the first night of my honeymoon in the same way I could after a year of growing together as a married couple. In that sense, postponing the wedding only postpones when I will be prepared. On the other hand, at what point are we losing faith in God’s plan by taking time for preparation?

Prepared in what way? God did not make it necessary to be married in order for a couple to prepare for having children. If you are prepared to be married, then technically you are prepared to have children. Now if you had said… “I don’t think I would be prepared to raise children the night of our wedding…” that is understandable!! That whole “God will provide” thing means he will give you what you need to be prepared… nothing more, and nothing less.

Again, it goes back to the purposes of this vocation you are choosing. The primary purpose of marriage is to make babies! You should be preparing yourself now to have children. (Again mutual love and help between spouses is the secondary purpose of marriage.)

I am friends with a couple that had a similar dilemma when they were preparing for marriage. They wanted to wait to have children to make sure they could spend some time together to get closer spiritually emotionally… etc etc. They felt they could be better parents that way. The night of their wedding came, and they decided to toss NFP out the window, and 9 months later had a beautiful little boy! Not only were they “open to life” but they truly wanted to conceive as soon as possible.

You feelings on this topic may change in the next year before your wedding. Just because you are not ready to start having kids right this minute, does not mean that you won’t be ready when the time comes. Besides… babies take awhile to come… at least 9 months… sometimes years. Heck… I didn’t feel ready or prepared until number 1 was in my arms.

 

[YinYangMom]

Vluvski,

It sounds to me like the two of you have the correct ‘spirit’ for marriage. You are studying up on the teachings of the Church on the matter of marriage and children. You are communicating with each other your views on the matter. But it seems you are both seeking a definite answer one way or another from an outside source, and that, I believe is not possible.

After the two of you sit down together with the priest who is about to preside at your wedding to discuss these things I am confident you will find the answers you seek. I trust you will walk away from that meeting, discuss some items, and pray together at Eucharistc Adoration while allowing the Holy Spirit to move you in one direction or the other.

Bottom line, is it truly is between you, your fiance and God. The good news is you and he are both coming from the right place - one isn’t trying to bring in secular teachings into the discussion - so you should have faith in knowing that whatever answer you come up with together will be the correct one for your marriage.

Personally, for the very reasons you stated, coming off of a long-distance engagement I’d tend to agree it would be more responsible for you two to wait a little bit before having children. There will be a definite transition period for you two. It could be short, it could be long…but during that transition NFP could certainly be called for.

I wish more engaged couples were as sincere and concerned for their faith as you are. As a FOCCUS advisor to engaged couples at our church, I see few who are really considering how to be faithful to the church. They are mostly concerned with jumping through this hoop so they can have the pretty church wedding they (or their parents) have always dreamed of.

 

[BioCatholic]

frogman80:

God will provide… this doesn’t mean you will also be financially rich… it might even mean that you will be financially “uncomfortable”!!! But he will still provide.

i fail to see how God provides for all the children starving to death in Africa, 3rd world countries, and even some here in the USA. how does God provide for them? i think the truth is that God doesnt provide for everyone. through overpopulation, lack of contraception and education, children are born when and where there is no means to support them.

the church teaches against contraception, i know. however, what is the church going to teach when the Earth reaches its population carrying capacity, and natural resources and food arent enough, and millions,and millions and millions of children are dying?

1 of 2 things have to happen eventually.

1. humans learn to succesfully control the population through contraception
2. hundreds of millions of people are going to starve or freeze to death, or die of disease. the more crowded the area gets, the faster disease spreads.

the church doesnt accept contraception, so i guess when the time comes, they will have to be ready to give last rights to possibly millions and millions of starving people per day.

contraception has helped reduce human growth in the past 50 years, otherwise wed be in more trouble then we already are. i am interested to know how they will respond to a grossly overpopulated earth in the coming decades.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

BioCatholic,

I fail to see how your response has anything to do with the original question. There are plenty of other threads where your opinions would contribute to the debate.

Malia

 

[Catholic2003]

vluvski:

1. Is it right to say, “If our vocation truly lies in childless parenthood, at least temporarily, God will not bless us with children until He sees fit?”

This is called providentialism, and it is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Here is Chrisopher West’s discussion of providentialism:

Trusting in Providence

So what constitutes a “serious reason” for avoiding a child? Here’s where the discussion typically gets heated. Correct thinking (ortho-doxy) on the issue of responsible parenthood, like all issues, is a matter of maintaining important distinctions and carefully balancing various truths. Failure to do so leads to errors on both extremes.

An example of one such error is the “hyper-pious” notion that if couples really trusted in providence, they would never seek to avoid a child. This simply is not the teaching of the Church. As Karol Wojtyla (John Paul II’s pre-papal name) observed, in some cases “increase in the size of the family would be incompatible with parental duty.”[10] Therefore, as he also affirmed, avoiding children “in certain circumstances may be permissible or even obligatory.”[11]

We are certainly to trust in God’s providence. But this important truth must be balanced with another important truth if we are to avoid the error of a certain “providentialism.” When the devil tempted Christ to jump from the temple, he was correct to say that God would provide for him. The devil was even quoting Scripture! But Christ responded with another truth from Scripture: “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test” (see Lk 4:9-12).

A couple struggling to provide for their existing children should likewise not put God to the test. Today, knowledge of the fertility cycle is part of God’s providence. Thus, couples who make responsible use of that knowledge to avoid pregnancy are trusting in God’s providence. They, no less than a couple “who prudently and generously decide to have a large family,”[12] are practicing responsible parenthood.

 

[vluvski]

frogman80:

Again, it goes back to the purposes of this vocation you are choosing. The primary purpose of marriage is to make babies! You should be preparing yourself now to have children. (Again mutual love and help between spouses is the secondary purpose of marriage.)

I agree that we should be preparing now, and obviously our vows require that we are open to children, but is it not possible that postponing pregnancy serves the primary purpose of procreation and responsible parenthood more fully than an immediate pregnancy in some cases? I don’t mean to sound confrontational, I am genuinely interested in your (and others’) understanding of the matter.

You also touch upon the length of time between now and the wedding. Yes, sentiments can change. I’ll admit that the swollen belly of my pregnant coworker makes me insanely jealous at times, and I can honestly say I feel more ready now than three months ago when this topic first came up. I think both of us kind of brushed it off with that very logic, that there was a whole year before we’d be facing the possibility of pregnancy, and not to worry about it. I tried to come to peace with my fiance’s philosophy, thinking that the more stringent guideline was safer, but it kept resurfacing. Over the weekend, the topic had been on both our minds all day without having spoken that morning. Surely God knew we needed to talk about this!

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

The primary purpose of marriage is to make babies!

I’m doubtful about that. The vows aren’t to “Love, cherish and make babies with 'til death do us part”

The purpose of marriage is the joining of a man and a woman who were both made by God specifically for one another. One of the joys of marriage is that the spouses love sometimes becomes a physical being which the spouses then get to love and raise. But there are couples who are physically unable to “make babies”. They may adopt, but they’re not making any new babies. Sometimes people past the child-bearing years get married. God is in their marriage just as much even though these spouses can’t “make babies”.

Looking at it that way, Henry VIII was right to divorce his infertile wives so that he and his fertile wife could make a nice baby boy to take his throne.

“Making babies” is one of the advantages of marriage, but not the primary purpose of marriage.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Try reading “The Role of the Christian Family in the Modern World” by John Paul II (an excellent author!)

My mom recommended this book for any couple getting married. She said they should read and discuss it and that it discusses waiting to have children and various reasons for doing so. My mom used to teach NFP, so I trust her recommendation.

My mom also wants you to know that the decision is completely yours and your fiance’s (guided by the Holy Spirit) because God will let you guys know and not, say, the rest of us on the Catholic message board . We can share our opinions, but in the end, you guys will know what is right!

Congrats on your engagement! You’re in my prayers!

 

[vluvski]

MariaGorettiGrl:

Try reading “The Role of the Christian Family in the Modern World” by John Paul II (an excellent author!)

My mom recommended this book for any couple getting married. She said they should read and discuss it and that it discusses waiting to have children and various reasons for doing so. My mom used to teach NFP, so I trust her recommendation.

Thank you very much for the recommendation. I’ve been seeing a lot about ‘spacing’ children, but not a lot addressing the issue of postponing when there are no children… yet! I don’t know your mom and neither does my fiance, but both of us can trust JPII.

 

[singanewsong]

What do all of the previous posters think “responsible parenthood” means?

 

[NFPfamily]

MariaGorettiGrl:

I’m doubtful about that. The vows aren’t to “Love, cherish and make babies with 'til death do us part”

Actually, in a Catholic wedding ceremony, part of your vows involve being open to receiving children as God blesses you with them, or being open to life.

 

[frogman80]

MariaGorettiGrl:

Quote:
The primary purpose of marriage is to make babies!

I’m doubtful about that. The vows aren’t to “Love, cherish and make babies with 'til death do us part”

The Church does teach that procreation is the primary purpose of marriage. It sorta goes along with that Natural Law thing! The “will / want / openness” of the couple to have children is a requirement for a valid marriage. May be topic for another post… you can read a bit more about Church teaching here:

www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911frs.asp

vluvski:

I agree that we should be preparing now, and obviously our vows require that we are open to children, but is it not possible that postponing pregnancy serves the primary purpose of procreation and responsible parenthood more fully than an immediate pregnancy in some cases? I don’t mean to sound confrontational, I am genuinely interested in your (and others’) understanding of the matter.

You also touch upon the length of time between now and the wedding. Yes, sentiments can change. I’ll admit that the swollen belly of my pregnant coworker makes me insanely jealous at times, and I can honestly say I feel more ready now than three months ago when this topic first came up. I think both of us kind of brushed it off with that very logic, that there was a whole year before we’d be facing the possibility of pregnancy, and not to worry about it. I tried to come to peace with my fiance’s philosophy, thinking that the more stringent guideline was safer, but it kept resurfacing. Over the weekend, the topic had been on both our minds all day without having spoken that morning. Surely God knew we needed to talk about this!

Genuine interest is very good!

Is it possible that “…postponing pregnancy serves the primary purpose of procreation and responsible parenthood more fully than an immediate pregnancy in some cases…”? Yes, and no… Yes, you are allowed to postpone for serious reason, and many couples have found many prudent times for doing so without detriment to their vocation! The “no” is just a technicality really… to truly fulfill the primary purpose (procreation)… procreation needs to be involved And please don’t take me wrong… I am not saying that if a couple can not have children (for whatever reason) that they are not fulfilling their vocation. (EDIT By “whatever reason” I do not mean frivolous reasons. EDIT)

While preparing for marriage, make sure the two of you continue to work on being in love with one another, as well as being in love with the vocation. This vocation will be what gets you, your beloved, and your children into Heaven.

Since you and your hubby to be are obviously open to having children… why not pray daily for God to make it possible for you to have children early in your marriage? At the very least, place your worries in His hands… a year is more than enough time for God to help you sort through them!

Remember, it is not only a purpose, but it is a privilege. With God you two will help to bring new souls into the world that too will love and worship God. You get to help God continue on His creation.

BioCatholic: I agree with Feanaro’s Wife… it would be best to find another thread for that discussion!

God bless you all and Mary keep you.

 

[Catholic2003]

Feanaro's Wife:

But if you are interested in my personal opinion, I don’t see anything wrong with wanting to “prepare” for children. If this means wanting to just enjoy being married for a bit, wanting to set up financially, etc then it is ok as long as you and your fiance agree on the terms.

But too many people get caught in the “not quite yet” circle where they are always wanting to prepare that one final thing before deciding to try and conceive. Unfortunately, many people wait too long.

I agree completely! For some people it is essential to have some time together as a couple before adding children to the mix.

Postponing children in order to prepare and plan for them is a good thing. God gave us brains so that we would prepare and plan.

It is only when your reasons become selfishly motivated that avoiding children becomes sinful. This is especially problematic when artificial birth control is involved; contraception reinforces selfishness. The neat thing about NFP is that the sacrifice involved in abstaining every month works against selfishness.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

The Church does teach that procreation is the primary purpose of marriage. It sorta goes along with that Natural Law thing! The “will / want / openness” of the couple to have children is a requirement for a valid marriage.

Procreation is a part of marriage, but as explained in JP2’s “Theology of the Body”, it’s unification and then procreation.

And “openness” doesn’t mean you have to try to make a baby every single night! It means if you get pregnant when you weren’t expecting it, you will lovingly accept the child into your life.

My parents had three children. My aunt had six. That doesn’t mean my parents weren’t “open” to children. It just meant they felt they could well raise and support three children, while my aunt felt she could well raise and support six children.

So, I absolutely agree openess to children is valid, but that’s different than starting having children immediately!

 

[frogman80]

unification and then procreation…

Well duh!!!

The Sacrament of marriage is not “finalized” (finalized may not be the right word) until it is consummated. Also, it is very difficult for procreation to occur without that unification. Yes unification comes first, but procreation is still the primary “end” / “purpose” of marriage… it is the primary end of that unification. What primary purpose are husband and wife unified? To procreate. What secondary purpose are husband and wife unified? Mutual love and help of one another. (My wife studied Theology of the body (via JPII) in her philosophy major, so I am somewhat familiar those works.)

And “openness” doesn’t mean you have to try to make a baby every single night! It means if you get pregnant when you weren’t expecting it, you will lovingly accept the child into your life.

Ehh… yeah, every act of unifying love between spouses does not need to result in a child. (Wow!! that would be lots of kids ) But lets clear something up here… The church DOES have a teaching on this subject. A couple needs a non-frivolous reason for purposely choosing to postpone a pregnancy. And by postponing a pregnancy, I mean, purposely abstaining during fertile periods in order to avoid conception. This teaching is not in place to overpopulate the world, or to put couples in harsh situations. The teaching is there to help couples to be happy… to help couples grow closer to each other and to God. (Note, I am talking generally here… not about vluvski or anyone else in particular. She and hers will discern what to do together with God.)

It is a flawed sentiment to think that a couple needs to wait till they are closer in order to have children. The very act of having children will bring a couple closer together. It is popular opinion in our culture today that children somehow restrict a marriage from growing. The opposite is actually truth. If you can manage it, children can only enrich a marriage. Yes, there are probably very good reasons for a newly married couple to postpone pregnancy, but I do not think “growing closer” is one of them… it is just counter intuitive.

The Holy Family is the ultimate model to strive for. Did they have 12 kids? No… but they were completely open and obedient to God’s will. God says Joseph / Mary {fill in blank}… Joseph and Mary say yes Lord. They put their complete trust in Him.

God bless you and Mary keep you.

 

[vluvski]

To clarify my own statements in light of frogman’s, I did not mean to imply that our marriage would be stifled by children when I spoke of time to grow. I merely meant that we are considering the possibility that responsible parenthood and fulfilling our vocation could involve growth that is best or only achieved before having children.
If one feels called to have a large family (and my fiance and I do), then I kind of think there is much to be said for waiting so the couple and the family do not go emotionally or financially bankrupt because the parents blindly decided to start having children right away.
To make a blanket claim that having children at the very beginning of a marriage is mandatory seems inconsistent with Church teaching. For one thing, I would expect the Church to have already made such a statement if that was the only interpretation of the meaning of marriage and the obligation of our wedding vows. It also denies the (only?) “definitive” teaching on family planning, which is that it is up to the prayerful consideration of the couple. God knows what is in our hearts, and for what motives we choose to delay or achieve pregnancy.
It seems to me, like almost everyone has said, prayerful discernment between the couple and God is the key to making a moral decision on the matter. Educating yourself on the teachings of the church, as well as getting opinions from other respectable Catholics who are loyal to church teachings, is part of that, but ultimately, no one but you can tell you what is best for you. It is the hope of every good Christian that your understanding of what is best for you coincides with God’s Will for you, and you must trust in your own ability to prayerfully discern and not live in fear of making a wrong decision.

 

[felra]

vluvski:

It seems to me, like almost everyone has said, prayerful discernment between the couple and God is the key to making a moral decision on the matter. Educating yourself on the teachings of the church, as well as getting opinions from other respectable Catholics who are loyal to church teachings, is part of that, but ultimately, no one but you can tell you what is best for you. It is the hope of every good Christian that your understanding of what is best for you coincides with God’s Will for you, and you must trust in your own ability to prayerfully discern and not live in fear of making a wrong decision.

Your words could have come right out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

**1781 **Conscience enables one to assume *responsibility *for the acts performed.

**1782 **Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”

**1783 **Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

---

**1787 **Man is sometimes confronted by situations that make moral judgments less assured and decision difficult. But he must always seriously seek what is right and good and discern the will of God expressed in divine law.

 

[Catholic2003]

frogman80:

It is a flawed sentiment to think that a couple needs to wait till they are closer in order to have children. The very act of having children will bring a couple closer together.

Sometimes having a child can drive a wedge between a couple, eventually leading to divorce. Every couple is different in this regard.

This is why each couple must carefully discern God’s will for themselves. This is why the Church doesn’t have a “one size fits all” list of valid reasons for postponing children.

The Family Life forum here contains plenty of newlyweds with severe marital problems who would be well advised to postpone children until they can first work out their problems and grow closer.

 

[frogman80]

vluvski:

To clarify my own statements in light of frogman’s, I did not mean to imply that our marriage would be stifled by children when I spoke of time to grow. I merely meant that we are considering the possibility that responsible parenthood and fulfilling our vocation could involve growth that is best or only achieved before having children.
If one feels called to have a large family (and my fiance and I do), then I kind of think there is much to be said for waiting so the couple and the family do not go emotionally or financially bankrupt because the parents blindly decided to start having children right away.
To make a blanket claim that having children at the very beginning of a marriage is mandatory seems inconsistent with Church teaching. For one thing, I would expect the Church to have already made such a statement if that was the only interpretation of the meaning of marriage and the obligation of our wedding vows. It also denies the (only?) “definitive” teaching on family planning, which is that it is up to the prayerful consideration of the couple. God knows what is in our hearts, and for what motives we choose to delay or achieve pregnancy.
It seems to me, like almost everyone has said, prayerful discernment between the couple and God is the key to making a moral decision on the matter. Educating yourself on the teachings of the church, as well as getting opinions from other respectable Catholics who are loyal to church teachings, is part of that, but ultimately, no one but you can tell you what is best for you. It is the hope of every good Christian that your understanding of what is best for you coincides with God’s Will for you, and you must trust in your own ability to prayerfully discern and not live in fear of making a wrong decision.

Yes, you are right, the church does not mandate that you must conceive on your wedding night or even in the first years of your marriage (however long). I don’t think I ever said that. All the Church does teach is that no matter when you plan on postponing a pregnancy you need a non-frivolous / non-selfish / non-sinful reason, and both spouses must mutually agree. Now, I am speaking generally here… I am not accusing you or anyone of being frivolous selfish or sinful! I am just reiterating the Church teaching… which actually uses the word “Serious.”

Many people… Including family members and fellow Catholics like to point out the horror stories of having children… talk of children leading to financial instability, emotional problems, divorce… etc. (Heck… some people who have never even had children are added to that list!) Yes, that sort of thing does happen especially to those who do not have faith in God as their foundation in their marriage. Some people just use children as the scapegoat when it’s the parents who were the problem all along. But for every horror story you are going to hear… there are more stories where things turn out good, and fine and things DO work out.

You and your hubby to be are on the right track… continue to pray and placing your concerns in His hands!

God bless you and Mary keep you.

 

[frogman80]

Catholic2003:

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogman80
It is a flawed sentiment to think that a couple needs to wait till they are closer in order to have children. The very act of having children will bring a couple closer together.

Sometimes having a child can drive a wedge between a couple, eventually leading to divorce. Every couple is different in this regard.

This is why each couple must carefully discern God’s will for themselves. This is why the Church doesn’t have a “one size fits all” list of valid reasons for postponing children.

The Family Life forum here contains plenty of newlyweds with severe marital problems who would be well advised to postpone children until they can first work out their problems and grow closer.
Reply With Quote

Yeah… I respectfully have to nit-pick your post here. (I in no way wish to be offensive towards you… I promise ) I also feel the need to clarify my position a bit.

The statement “Sometimes having a child can drive a wedge between a couple, eventually leading to divorce.”

Yes, this situation can happen, and yes, major marital problems might be a good reason to “postpone” a pregnancy. But do you personally know a couple this has happened to? Were they a faithful couple? Was their marriage founded on faith in God? Did they have major marital problems before they got pregnant? What were the terms of the pregnancy? Was the couple open to life? Was it really having a child that caused the divorce, or was the marriage already in shambles?

In a good marriage a child will bring a husband and wife closer together. Children help to make a good marriage better. Yes, some children add additional crosses to a marriage, but in the scheme of things this is not bad.

God bless you and Mary keep you!