When is NFP morally acceptable in marriage?

[YinYangMom]

TheRam:

I am no longer on the floor crying all the time, my life is willing to place the lord at a much better perspective in my life…but i am knowlegeable in the getting close to the lord, experiencing the holy spirit, but i am very green on the actual facts and traditions of my own faith…so i look here!

Ram,
Stay focused on the Lord, apparently He is giving you strength and clarity of purpose. Pray fervently for His guidance and for His intercession with your husband, that he may soften his anger toward you. Protect your children at all cost - even if that means physically removing yourself and them from your husband’s presence.

The Church does not insist you put your life or that of your children at risk with abusive husbands, but you know best whether or not he is a physical threat…trust your instincts.

Yes, you would remain married to him, 'til death do you part - so you’d still be keeping your promise to God - but by removing yourself physically it gives space and time for your husband to reflect on his behavior and decide whether or not to have a change of heart. In time, and with prayer, perhaps you may be reunited into a stronger marriage.

Your husband sounds terribly tormented by something gnawing away at him. I will pray for his soul, that he may turn to Christ for comfort and peace.

As for the loss of your eldest son, I am truly sorry, Ram. You can still talk to him about matters of the faith, though, you know. He’s still with you and can help you tremendously - moreso now than when he was confined by earthly limitations. He will help you through all this.

Peace and comfort be with you.

YYM

 

[TheRam]

YinYangMom:

Ram,
Stay focused on the Lord, apparently He is giving you strength and clarity of purpose. Pray fervently for His guidance and for His intercession with your husband, that he may soften his anger toward you. Protect your children at all cost - even if that means physically removing yourself and them from your husband’s presence.

The Church does not insist you put your life or that of your children at risk with abusive husbands, but you know best whether or not he is a physical threat…trust your instincts.

Yes, you would remain married to him, 'til death do you part - so you’d still be keeping your promise to God - but by removing yourself physically it gives space and time for your husband to reflect on his behavior and decide whether or not to have a change of heart. In time, and with prayer, perhaps you may be reunited into a stronger marriage.

Your husband sounds terribly tormented by something gnawing away at him. I will pray for his soul, that he may turn to Christ for comfort and peace.

As for the loss of your eldest son, I am truly sorry, Ram. You can still talk to him about matters of the faith, though, you know. He’s still with you and can help you tremendously - moreso now than when he was confined by earthly limitations. He will help you through all this.

Peace and comfort be with you.

YYM

Thank you kindly…i was so worried that my turning away would be turning away from God, even though it is what i need to focus closer to God. It is the nescesary evil, in order to get closer, so i can restore my marriage. Maybe if i become stronger, it just might change how i am percieved…thereby changing how one reacts to me. That is hopeful.

As for my childrens safety…it is never at risk further than bad breath and lac of involvement. They see nothing because he chooses to only be here for the hour to ocasionally bathe, and eat. He then goes to bed on another level of the household…away from the family, and goes to work by 3-5 am. You see, i will not allow the drinking or the shananigans near my babes, he gets the door first, as he has another place to go. He understood my terms of being together from so very long ago.

They are safe, we are simply alone and abandoned by him…so we will pick up our boot strings and tarry with the Lord. More will come of the situation if the Lord is with me, and i with him.

 

[YinYangMom]

TheRam:

Thank you kindly…i was so worried that my turning away would be turning away from God, even though it is what i need to focus closer to God. It is the nescesary evil, in order to get closer, so i can restore my marriage. Maybe if i become stronger, it just might change how i am percieved…thereby changing how one reacts to me. That is hopeful.

As for my childrens safety…it is never at risk further than bad breath and lac of involvement. They see nothing because he chooses to only be here for the hour to ocasionally bathe, and eat. He then goes to bed on another level of the household…away from the family, and goes to work by 3-5 am. You see, i will not allow the drinking or the shananigans near my babes, he gets the door first, as he has another place to go. He understood my terms of being together from so very long ago.

They are safe, we are simply alone and abandoned by him…so we will pick up our boot strings and tarry with the Lord. More will come of the situation if the Lord is with me, and i with him.

It appears your husband is doing the distancing from the relationship and from his children, so you shouldn’t worry about it being something you’re doing which would go against the faith.

You have your head on your shoulders and your heart in the right place right now. The Lord is guiding you wisely for all involved. Believe that through your prayers He’s still working on your husband too, and in time, things may get better.

But until then, go to mass regularly, confession and continue to recieve the graces you need to remain strong for yourself and your children. Pray that rosary, as I will be keeping you in my rosary prayer list as well.

God has blessed you with courage and fortitude. May his peace and comfort be with you always. You are so not alone.

YYM

 

[TheRam]

YinYangMom:

But until then, go to mass regularly, confession and continue to recieve the graces you need to remain strong for yourself and your children. Pray that rosary, as I will be keeping you in my rosary prayer list as well.

God has blessed you with courage and fortitude. May his peace and comfort be with you always. You are so not alone.

YYM

Hmmm, i never even realized that i had stopped saying the rosary slowly over time…but i do believe that i never really understood the full impact of praying for a cituation and leaving it at anyones feet. I am understanding this now…maybe it will restore my confidence in needing courage.

Thank you for saying i am not alone…recently, it is all i feel…but yet there are those few like you, that stop, sheppard a sad heart, and make a difference!

God bless you, and i will keep you in my prayers aswell!

 

[vluvski]

In case people are still following the thread, I listened to the entire 10CD series by Christopher West last week.

There is nothing indicating either way whether he recommends or discourages couples practicing NFP at the beginning of their marriage.

Quick clarification, I realize that “practicing NFP” doesn’t REALLY mean delaying pregnancy, but that is how most people interpret it, and it is the most concise way of saying we will be using periodic continence to reduce to chances of conception. We would use STM to determine the timing of everything.

 

[YinYangMom]

vluvski:

In case people are still following the thread, I listened to the entire 10CD series by Christopher West last week.

There is nothing indicating either way whether he recommends or discourages couples practicing NFP at the beginning of their marriage.

Quick clarification, I realize that “practicing NFP” doesn’t REALLY mean delaying pregnancy, but that is how most people interpret it, and it is the most concise way of saying we will be using periodic continence to reduce to chances of conception. We would use STM to determine the timing of everything.

Do you recall if when he did address it, it was assuming a family already had one child though?

What I seem to recall (and I listened to it over the summer) is the part about defining/determining ‘responsibility’…and either in this seminar or the other one “Marriage and the Eucharist” he actually made a statement about not having children within the first 2-3 years of a marriage. If it wasn’t in the 10 CD set, then perhaps it was in that other - I’ll listen to it again this evening to let you know.

But he was addressing responsibility along with being emotionally committed to each other in such a way as to have a solid foundation for raising children, and I believe he was talking about what that other poster mentioned - getting over the quirks of the honeymoon phase - working out those initial kinks which can lead many loving couples to bickering and doubting…but once you get past that phase, then new life does not add to the tension as much, clouding one’s judgement over the quircks which can be maddening at first.

I could be wrong…but I listened to both of those over the summer and walked away with the impression that waiting can be viewed as “being responsible”, and that being responsible was a definite obligation of all Catholics with regard to raising a family.

The bottom line, however, is that you and your fiance are comfortable with your own personal decision. It really is between the two of you and God.

 

[YinYangMom]

TheRam:

Hmmm, i never even realized that i had stopped saying the rosary slowly over time…but i do believe that i never really understood the full impact of praying for a cituation and leaving it at anyones feet. I am understanding this now…maybe it will restore my confidence in needing courage.

Thank you for saying i am not alone…recently, it is all i feel…but yet there are those few like you, that stop, sheppard a sad heart, and make a difference!

God bless you, and i will keep you in my prayers aswell!

As Fr. Corapi says, “Our Mother wears combat boots!” Mary is our champion, she will fight the devil to protect us. She has given us the ultimate weapon in the rosary, so feel free to use it at any time. Have your children join you, if they are of age. It will help them as well.

Peace to you, and thank you for keeping me in your prayers. You are a part of the larger Church and the Communion of Saints. You are so not alone in this and have so many people here, and in the afterlife supporting you.

 

[TheRam]

Oh, YYM…i know my son is around me when i am overwhelmed…i feel him. He is also around me when i least expect it…he plays tricks on me, and i hear his laughter watching me wonder. Here is a thought i pondered…

Him being around is one thing, but do they have the power to be of any assistance to the living…really, besides comforting them? Your statement made me ponder.

 

[Youngcatholic]

frogman80:

Granted, you may not get to be a stay at home mother, but that alone is probably not a valid reason to postpone having children.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on this. I think postponing pregnancy using NFP so you are at a point financially to stay at home and care for your children is a valid reason. Otherwise, one gets stuck with finding daycare or not having enough time raising their children themselves.

 

[Fortiterinre]

Youngcatholic:

frogman80:

Granted, you may not get to be a stay at home mother, but that alone is probably not a valid reason to postpone having children.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on this. I think postponing pregnancy using NFP so you are at a point financially to stay at home and care for your children is a valid reason. Otherwise, one gets stuck with finding daycare or not having enough time raising their children themselves.

I agree that financial reasons are suitably serious or “valid,” but even more I think that there is a legitimate subjectivity on the issue of if or when couples should use NFP. There is definitely no “one-size-fits-all” answer here, for any Catholic couples.

 

[YinYangMom]

TheRam:

Him being around is one thing, but do they have the power to be of any assistance to the living…really, besides comforting them? Your statement made me ponder.

Speaking from personal experience, absolutely they have the power. I have a grandmother and an uncle who have been gone for many years now, and yet there are directions my life has taken that I am certain were the result of their intercession. I could almost feel their hand guiding my thoughts as I weighed one decision over another.

That is what the communion of saints is about. It is why we pray to certain saints for certain needs, they have their specialty, so to speak. And our loved ones, well, they know before we do what lies ahead and what resources we’ll need to get through any hard spots. Allow yourself to trust in the power they have been granted (and I suppose we shouldn’t use the term power, but rather ‘grace’)…but trust in it and you’ll begin to feel his help at work around and within you, as you already feel his presence.

The Catechism states:
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness… They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus… So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."493
*
Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.** -* St. Dominic, dying, to his brothers
*
I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.* - St. Therese of Lisieux, the Final Conversations, tr. John Clarke (Washington: ICS, 1977), 102.

 

[TheRam]

Wow, ok, does this mean that even though he is not a saint, that he can help me. A friend of Wills (my son) told me that she had a visitation from him…he told her things that were going on in my household that she would never have known. A missing document of his was explained to her so that i can find it, he told her that he thought that the things i gave away to family were wonderful gestures, and that he is around me all the time and will be forever. He especially answered her when she wondered how i was doing, that he would help me to resolve and deal with my anger in life so that i can move closer to God.

Another time, he came to me in a dream telling me that things will be ok, that it is what it is, and not meant to hurt. we would be together soon some day,and untill then, he had things to do, and i had things to do…and when we are through, we will be together once again…prommise! You see, i saw his eyes in that dream…i saw he was ok…i never felt such guilt leave me in one moment…i was at peace with where he was.

Are these what you mean as confirmation to his helping me?

 

[frogman80]

Youngcatholic:

frogman80:

Granted, you may not get to be a stay at home mother, but that alone is probably not a valid reason to postpone having children.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on this. I think postponing pregnancy using NFP so you are at a point financially to stay at home and care for your children is a valid reason. Otherwise, one gets stuck with finding daycare or not having enough time raising their children themselves.

Youngcatholic… I actually agree with you on the importance of being able to raise your kids. Despite what my post may imply about my feelings on this subject… my wife and I decided before we were even married that, if possible, she would stay home to raise our children. It was very important to us, and something we both feel strongly about.

That said, it is not a sin for parents to make use of day care. Nor is it a sin for hubby to temporarily take care of the child while he searches for a job, and while mom keeps the health insurance going. I agree with you, and I do not think either would be the ultimate situation… but I do not think 8-10 hours of day care completely prohibits parents form raising their child. (It does make it harder.) I am evidence of this situation… my parents both needed to work in order to support the family. I went to a day care until I was old enough to go to school. Again… not the optimum situation… but I turned out fine.

I have written about this before… many people ask about when is it ok for a couple to abstain to prevent pregnancy. Many of those people are very open to having children, and would like to have children as soon as possible… but they are worried that in their current situation they may not be able to handle it. Most people tend to give horror stories of having kids, and many people like to point out reasons why you might not want to have children. I prefer to give people excuses to have children… especially if is seems that’s what they want to do.

As far as my post is concerned… I specifically said “you may not get to be a stay at home mother” and “that alone is probably not a valid reason…” I realize that vluvski and her future hubby will make the decision on their own… they know their situation better than anyone here. I honestly don’t exactly know where vluvski and future hubby are financially… but I do know that if they really really want to have children, and if it is possible for them… they will find a way to do it I don’t think my reply was completely wrong… but admittedly I could have probably said it better differently!

 

[vluvski]

YinYangMom:

Do you recall if when he did address it, it was assuming a family already had one child though?

What I seem to recall (and I listened to it over the summer) is the part about defining/determining ‘responsibility’…and either in this seminar or the other one “Marriage and the Eucharist” he actually made a statement about not having children within the first 2-3 years of a marriage. If it wasn’t in the 10 CD set, then perhaps it was in that other - I’ll listen to it again this evening to let you know.

But he was addressing responsibility along with being emotionally committed to each other in such a way as to have a solid foundation for raising children, and I believe he was talking about what that other poster mentioned - getting over the quirks of the honeymoon phase - working out those initial kinks which can lead many loving couples to bickering and doubting…but once you get past that phase, then new life does not add to the tension as much, clouding one’s judgement over the quircks which can be maddening at first.

I could be wrong…but I listened to both of those over the summer and walked away with the impression that waiting can be viewed as “being responsible”, and that being responsible was a definite obligation of all Catholics with regard to raising a family.

The bottom line, however, is that you and your fiance are comfortable with your own personal decision. It really is between the two of you and God.

He touched very briefly on spacing and delaying in a marriage that already has one or more children, but did not address any situation where there were no children yet. It was probably in the other series, because I was paying VERY close attention to the section on “Marriage and Fruitfulness” after you mentioned hearing something about it.

It is this idea of mandated responsibility in parenthood that makes me hesitate to have children right away. In ways, I already want to have children and start our family. I guess it’s kind of like Christ’s life- He knew (at a point) that his purpose of becoming human was to suffer and die, but He didn’t rush off to be crucified as soon as He realized that was His Father’s Will. That isn’t to say that He wasn’t ready or willing to die, and wanting to give of Himself for us at any moment, but that he knew there were other important things He needed to accomplish before that. In the same way, FI and I know our vocation together lies in parenthood, and even though we may wait, we are ready, willing, and even desiring to have children as soon as we can licitly do so.

My dad also pointed out the importance of a job/career as part of my Catholic Christian vocation. I’m not looking for a long-term career, but I do feel I have a professional obligation to spend some time with my current company since they have invested a good deal of money training me. God didn’t open doors for me with respect to my education and my job because it isn’t what He wanted me to do… but He definitely closed some doors that weren’t part of His plan. cough, GRE scores, cough The Church has great respect for the dignity of work, and, as my dad put it, this is not “frivolous.”

As my fiance’s brother (also a dear friend of mine) said to me just this weekend, my fiance just “doesn’t have a first gear. It’s always fifth,” so it is sometimes hard to pin him down to discuss serious stuff for any length of time when there are so many things to do and think about.

My fiance has said that after talking to a number of devout and trusted couples, he sees some merit in waiting for a short while. The issue is still far from resolved between us, but I have a feeling this weekend our appointment for marriage prep with our priest will be a good time to lay everything out on the table, and get a trusted opinion from a great priest.

 

[YinYangMom]

TheRam:

Wow, ok, does this mean that even though he is not a saint, that he can help me. A friend of Wills (my son) told me that she had a visitation from him…he told her things that were going on in my household that she would never have known. A missing document of his was explained to her so that i can find it, he told her that he thought that the things i gave away to family were wonderful gestures, and that he is around me all the time and will be forever. He especially answered her when she wondered how i was doing, that he would help me to resolve and deal with my anger in life so that i can move closer to God.

Another time, he came to me in a dream telling me that things will be ok, that it is what it is, and not meant to hurt. we would be together soon some day,and untill then, he had things to do, and i had things to do…and when we are through, we will be together once again…prommise! You see, i saw his eyes in that dream…i saw he was ok…i never felt such guilt leave me in one moment…i was at peace with where he was.

Are these what you mean as confirmation to his helping me?

I would interpret those as confirmation, certainly. He **is **helping you, guiding you through your mourning for him, no?

I don’t know the Church’s position, but I don’t believe one has to be a saint to be able to help those of us on earth. Granted, they probably could do more for us if they were, but it is my personal belief that they are still able to help while in purgatory. I place this belief on knowing that time and space are not limitations where they are - they are not confined to our earthly constraints - so the energy they expend to reach out to us can be felt by us if we tune into it, so to speak. It may be a very small amount of energy expended on their part, but from our end it can appear to be a lot of energy.

Imagine how much more the saints can do for you though, no?
So while you remember your son and keep him close, do take the time to call on a particular saint who is patron/patroness of the matter at hand you wish to face - and always, always, include our Mother.

Pray for all the souls in purgatory, especially those who have no one on earth to remember them or pray for them. We’re still on the same journey, just from different playing fields now.

 

[YinYangMom]

vluvski:

It was probably in the other series, because I was paying VERY close attention to the section on “Marriage and Fruitfulness” after you mentioned hearing something about it.

Ok, I’ll take a close listen to that other CD then.

Got a kick out of that little cough of yours… I agree completely with you said aobut vocation and all.

You must be excited about the upcoming marriage prep. I hope it’s a good experience for you two.

 

[YinYangMom]

Listened to Marriage and the Eucharist again…family planning comes up at the end, track 11 (after track 10 on contraception). He doesn’t go into it much only to say (loosely transcribed):

Now some people come up to me and ask, “If we’re going to give up contraception in our marriage does that mean we have to have 1500 kids?”

What could you do if you had a serious reason to avoid a pregnancy in the marriage that would not be a violation of your wedding vows? Abstain.

There are times when abstaining from renewing your wedding vows would be an act of love -

One of you might be sick…it’s a valid reason to abstain, it would be the loving thing to abstain, and unloving NOT to abstain.

You may have recently had a child…a valid reason.

You might be at your in-laws and there are thin walls…

Maybe you have a good reason to avoid a pregnancy…to abstain…that’s the very principle of NFP. Get the resources, learn, contact parish…live the truth of this stuff.

Basically at that point he recommends people take a course on NFP through the diocese…

I’m figuring you’ll find your answers on your engagement retreat, but if not, it might not hurt to find an NFP group in your area and attend one of those together.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

and my suggestion is: Be generous, God will not give you more than you can handle.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

nt = no text

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

My husband and I researched the NFP topic a lot before getting married, with questions similar to yours. I would recommend you read Life-Giving Love, by Kimberly Hahn (Scott Hahn’s wife, he is a well known apologist). She uses an analogy of telling her kids to do something and them answering with excuses. She says that although they are legitimate excuses, they are still refusing to do what she asked of them. One could come up with a zillion reasons to wait on having children, but they may just be creative ways to say No to what God wants of us. (Don’t get me wrong, there are serious reasons too, but many times its just us being creative to calm our conscience).

As to the first year argument, children can help deal with the adjustments to being married (you have to become less self-centered when you have a child).

As to the long distance engagement argument, I can relate to that. My husband and I lived 80 miles away while I was at school and 1570 miles away during school vacation. We got married 2 months after I graduated. If you know each other enough to get married, then you know each other enough to have kids.

BTW, I’m an engineer too. Your whole story just reminds me of mine a lot. All I can say is 1 year and 2 months after our wedding vows were exchanged, I am sitting here with a beautiful 4 1/2 month old baby and I thank God a million times every day for this bundle of pure joy. I love married life and our baby just helped us get closer.
With that said, each couple is unique and responsible for their decisions, but I just wanted you to know it can be done. BTW, just because you don’t use NFP does not mean you will be pregnant immediately. It can be anything from days to years (I know people in both situations) … All in God’s time. :dancing:
PS… I asked a priest what he thought and he told me: Do you trust God? He won’t give you anything you can’t handle.
If you would like to talk more, email me. I’d love to help in any way I can.