When is sexual attraction "wrong"

[Edward_H]

Sounds about right to me.

Repressing our sexuality is wrong, just as allowing ourselves to dwell on it and enjoy sexual pleasure before marriage is. We are sexual beings and have to accept that that is a part of our existence, and it isn’t a bad thing to be sexual, or to be sexually attracted to others. That is a part of being human. But we need to learn how to place our sexuality and sexual desires in context, which means learn to recognize that it exists, and is good, but is meant to be reserved for marriage, so no seeking it out ahead of time, no dwelling in the pleasure because it feels good, but also not going out of ones way to avoid it unless it is too near an occasion of sin. We are all tempted every day in a wide array of ways. We are not required to avoid all temptation. So putting yourself in a situation which will make you be sexually attracted is not inherently any worse than walking into a grocery store or doughnut shop. Either can be wrong for a given person if it tempts them too strongly to sin, but neither is inherently sinful.

Repression is Frueudean psycho babble.

Our job is “conversion”…converting our bodily reflexes into good things…conversation with God…acts of thanksgiving, acts of atonement, acts of hope, etc.

This frustrates the devil to no end. So a woman walking by me becomes a prayer for me…a short moment with God.

 

[Kamaduck]

Actual advice is quite available. Prayer, avoiding near occasions…situations that one hasn’t yet mastered, fasting, mortification. Frequent confession helps, intense work, and of course the Sacraments.

Well, yes, that’s all good advice. I was just hoping for something a little more specific to the OP’s dilemma. Something along the lines of: “Sexual attraction is normal, and while you should learn to control your reactions to it, you do not need to avoid all situations that may arouse you (including dating!). You should always remember that sexual pleasure should be reserved for marriage, but that does not mean that you are sinning if you become aroused without meaning to. Don’t seek out sexual arousal and don’t dwell on sexual thoughts, and you’ll avoid falling into sin in this way. And, in general, don’t let this stop you from talking to people that you are attracted to in other ways. ”

Maybe change some stuff around, but that’s basically what I’m getting from this thread. We can date even though we will probably be aroused at some point, because that is not our goal and we are not otherwise encouraging those thoughts.

 

[Edward_H]

Well, yes, that’s all good advice. I was just hoping for something a little more specific to the OP’s dilemma. Something along the lines of: “Sexual attraction is normal, and while you should learn to control your reactions to it, you do not need to avoid all situations that may arouse you (including dating!). You should always remember that sexual pleasure should be reserved for marriage, but that does not mean that you are sinning if you become aroused without meaning to. Don’t seek out sexual arousal and don’t dwell on sexual thoughts, and you’ll avoid falling into sin in this way. And, in general, don’t let this stop you from talking to people that you are attracted to in other ways. ”

Maybe change some stuff around, but that’s basically what I’m getting from this thread. We can date even though we will probably be aroused at some point, because that is not our goal and we are not otherwise encouraging those thoughts.

That’s good advice.

 

[Kamaduck]

That’s good advice.

Success! For me and the OP, because it means I have figured the basics of this out, too.

…and now to spend a lifetime learning to actually practice it.

 

[Rau]

So to put physical arousal in a safe bucket is incorrect and will mislead people.

OK yes, but I think you are stating the well accepted. Sins of sexual morality may arise among the sexually aroused (with greater likelihood than among the not aroused). Very True. But they need not, and the mere arousal is not sinful.

The potential for sinfulness does not equate to “arousal is bad”. It does not imply “you must train your body to not become aroused”. It does suggest you should, “stay alert”, “be aware”, and “take care”.

 

[Edward_H]

Success! For me and the OP, because it means I have figured the basics of this out, too.

…and now to spend a lifetime learning to actually practice it.

Thanks for the healthy discussion.

Yes holiness is a joyful life time struggle. A good priest I know said “it’s uphill, but cheer up, it’s not all that steep. Get on with it now.”

 

[Rau]

the OP ought to unwind, go out on dates, learn how men and women interact in the usual way. he shouldn’t have to consult the CCC before he takes a woman out to dinner.

Here, Here!

 

[Rau]

Well, yes, that’s all good advice. I was just hoping for something a little more specific to the OP’s dilemma. Something along the lines of: “Sexual attraction is normal, and while you should learn to control your reactions to it, you do not need to avoid all situations that may arouse you (including dating!). You should always remember that sexual pleasure should be reserved for marriage, but that does not mean that you are sinning if you become aroused without meaning to. Don’t seek out sexual arousal and don’t dwell on sexual thoughts, and you’ll avoid falling into sin in this way. And, in general, don’t let this stop you from talking to people that you are attracted to in other ways. ”

Maybe change some stuff around, but that’s basically what I’m getting from this thread. We can date even though we will probably be aroused at some point, because that is not our goal and we are not otherwise encouraging those thoughts.

Tremendously balanced and on point.

 

[thewanderer]

Repression is Frueudean psycho babble.

Our job is “conversion”…converting our bodily reflexes into good things…conversation with God…acts of thanksgiving, acts of atonement, acts of hope, etc.

This frustrates the devil to no end. So a woman walking by me becomes a prayer for me…a short moment with God.

well, maybe that depends on what you mean by repression. All I know is that when I repress my feelings on most things (as opposed to facing them and dealing with them) it just builds up and then eventually explodes in a much more dramatic and painful experience then if I just dealt with it as it came up. This has happened to me about a number of things, especially in the past when instead of facing my feelings on topics that were uncomfortable I hid them away (such as my broken family background). I really don’t care what Frued has to say on the subject nor do I even know the details of his ideas, but I do know through experience that it is possible to try and hide ones feelings from oneself in an unhealthy way rather than actually dealing with them. That is what I was advising against.

 

[Robert_Sock]

It’s a matter of balance - we are wired to need some sexual attraction toward the opposite sex or the human race would have died out long ago, yet we must not let it run away and cause us to act in ways that are sinful.

Same-sex attraction is another matter. I know there are some who feel offended by the term “disordered attraction” and sometimes I wonder if it might be time to see if a different wording could be found. The gay and lesbian people I have known sometimes do feel indignant about it.

Did the stoics get it right by looking down at our passions?

 

[Edward_H]

well, maybe that depends on what you mean by repression. All I know is that when I repress my feelings on most things (as opposed to facing them and dealing with them) it just builds up and then eventually explodes in a much more dramatic and painful experience then if I just dealt with it as it came up. This has happened to me about a number of things, especially in the past when instead of facing my feelings on topics that were uncomfortable I hid them away (such as my broken family background). I really don’t care what Frued has to say on the subject nor do I even know the details of his ideas, but I do know through experience that it is possible to try and hide ones feelings from oneself in an unhealthy way rather than actually dealing with them. That is what I was advising against.

Exactly. What you’re describing is emotion in charge of will. Will and intellect are in the back seat. Dogs without an owner.

This idea that we are helpless…that sex just build and builds and “needs release” is diabolical.

 

[Edward_H]

Did the stoics get it right by looking down at our passions?

I don’t think so. Passions are from God. They are good. The struggle is to have passions serve our will and intellect.

 

[thewanderer]

Exactly. What you’re describing is emotion in charge of will. Will and intellect are in the back seat. Dogs without an owner.

This idea that we are helpless…that sex just build and builds and “needs release” is diabolical.

Looks like we’re on the same page. Saying that repressing our sexuality is bad is not the same as saying that the only other alternative is to find sexual release.

Did the stoics get it right by looking down at our passions?

Not at all. Our passions are good. As Ed H pointed out though, we need to learn to order them correctly. We should never desire to be void of emotion or passion though, that is not a human state. We are created to have passions and emotions, they are a good part of who we are as humans, but since we are fallen and they are no longer controlled by reason, we have to constantly struggle to get back to that original state. That is a large part of our battle here on earth.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I don’t think so. Passions are from God. They are good. The struggle is to have passions serve our will and intellect.

According to my deeply spiritual inner voices, sometimes I can’t help but feel that the stoics got it correctly!

 

[Baelor]

Obviously…given the number of threads, posts, addicted people…sexual attraction is more complicated than you imply…left alone to grow…it will…

I do not think that it is more complicated than I said. Sexual attraction is exactly what it sounds like. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a voluntary process, unless you are claiming that I can choose at will to find something sexually attractive, e.g. chairs.

with nursing it will seep in fast to someone’s behavior patterns.

Its nursing is not within the purview of this discussion.

You’re not doing anyone any good to draw an overly fine semantic or academic distinction to make a little point that no one has any problem with.

Yes, I am. Since it is still clear that I am talking past you.

Sexual attraction if left unchecked from the get go can lead to enormous problems and potential lost souls.

Is anyone disputing this?

It’s no consolation to point to a dictionary.

Yes, it is.

Yes…but you’re wrong. Not all instances of sexual attraction are “involuntary biological…”…as I pointed out many posts ago.

Sexual attraction is by definition involuntary, again, unless you are saying that I can at will find anything from a goldfish to my grandmother to my toothbrush sexually arousing. Anything that involves choice is already something other than pure sexual attraction.

Anything more than a passing thought (involuntary) is wrong.

No. I can intellectually reflect on the fact that I am sexually attracted to someone.

Nursed means to dwell on it in one’s consciousness. To perhaps elaborate an image, to relive a moment, a memory, to bring an image back to mind.

Is anyone disputing this?

Great point…yes physical attraction is one thing…perfectlyok…but to dwell on it…to take it to the sexual level…to fantasize about it…all wrong.

Sexual attraction is involuntary. Fantasy is wrong, but that is not the same thing.

So to put physical arousal in a safe bucket is incorrect and will mislead people.

Arousal is in a safe bucket. Better to tell people the truth rather than an expedient lie. Tell them what is wrong so they understand.

When one gets aroused one becomes conscious of it. At that point, it’s a good practice to will oneself to be de aroused. It’s relatively easy to do.

I am not obliged to make my boners flaccid.

 

[westNwewaxation]

I watched some lectures of Dr Anthony Esolen a while back, and he spoke to the students in answer to a question about dating about going to some kind of social event with a girl, like you are not just alone with the girl because there are other people there, but you are “there with” her so it is kind of a date. I thought this might be a useful idea for you guys, since it provides a safeguard against inappropriate romance, and also an opportunity to have fun in a situation where there’s not so much pressure. Maybe then your mind won’t be as apt to focus too much on sexual attraction because it is focused more on social interaction?

Anyway here is the video, it’s a short segment starting near the end the video, I think this link starts it at the point I’m talking about:
youtube.com/watch?v=pozcYEIGjhU#t=1h11m1s

 

[Edward_H]

I do not think that it is more complicated than I said. Sexual attraction is exactly what it sounds like. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a voluntary process, unless you are claiming that I can choose at will to find something sexually attractive, e.g. chairs.

Its nursing is not within the purview of this discussion.

Yes, I am. Since it is still clear that I am talking past you.

Is anyone disputing this?

Yes, it is.

Sexual attraction is by definition involuntary, again, unless you are saying that I can at will find anything from a goldfish to my grandmother to my toothbrush sexually arousing. Anything that involves choice is already something other than pure sexual attraction.

No. I can intellectually reflect on the fact that I am sexually attracted to someone.

Is anyone disputing this?

Sexual attraction is involuntary. Fantasy is wrong, but that is not the same thing.

Arousal is in a safe bucket. Better to tell people the truth rather than an expedient lie. Tell them what is wrong so they understand.

You’re wrong. Many many many attractions including sexual (fetishes) are acquired …across the senses

 

[Edward_H]

I watched some lectures of Dr Anthony Esolen a while back, and he spoke to the students in answer to a question about dating about going to some kind of social event with a girl, like you are not just alone with the girl because there are other people there, but you are “there with” her so it is kind of a date. I thought this might be a useful idea for you guys, since it provides a safeguard against inappropriate romance, and also an opportunity to have fun in a situation where there’s not so much pressure. Maybe then your mind won’t be as apt to focus too much on sexual attraction because it is focused more on social interaction?

Anyway here is the video, it’s a short segment starting near the end the video, I think this link starts it at the point I’m talking about:
youtube.com/watch?v=pozcYEIGjhU#t=1h11m1s

That’s a good aid to offer. Yes. Our attention can be harnessed…and should be!

 

[Baelor]

You’re wrong. Many many many attractions including sexual (fetishes) are acquired …across the senses

I did not say that sexual attraction was necessarily completely natural. I said that it was involuntary, i.e. I cannot at will in a given instant decide to be sexually attracted to a piano. Can you?

 

[Edward_H]

I did not say that sexual attraction was necessarily completely natural. I said that it was involuntary, i.e. I cannot at will in a given instant decide to be sexually attracted to a piano. Can you?

But most men can instantly, willingly, nurse an attraction to a beautiful woman to the point of sexual arousal, say within 30 seconds. Two men, one with a mature self-mastery, the other without, can have entirely different reactions…though both men might judge a particular woman to be equally attractive.

It’s this unchecked attraction that’s problematic.

But we covered and settled that matter above.

I think we’re done here.