When is sexual attraction "wrong"

[Kamaduck]

First, I assume you have been to confession since then. Do not withhold for yourself the forgiveness that God has given you.

Second, your struggles are not unusual! Almost all men on the planet struggle with masturbation (or engage in it). It is simply part of life for most individuals.

Third, please make an appointment with a priest ASAP. You need spiritual guidance from someone qualified. For your own sake, please reach out to your local parish.

And while it may not be as common for women, it’s certainly not unique to men!

Please, rkwittem. I know what you mean by locking your sexuality in a box. Trust me, this is not what God intended! Many people struggle to accept their sexuality without falling into sin. It is a very common problem, and I’m sure any experienced priest will be able to give you good advice on the subject.

You may need to take things very slowly at first, but I think that if you work at it, you will be able to acknowledge your thoughts without dwelling on them and falling into sin.

 

[Rau]

I do talk to women. I just don’t date them. I treat them all the way I would treat my mother or sister or aunts. Dating and sexual thoughts go too closely together for me. It makes me skittish. I don’t trust myself- that’s why it’s morally repugnant for me to date. It just tempts my mind too much. I can’t do it in good faith at all.

This reminds me of the parable about the 3 servants, one of whom buried his talent in the ground rather than doing something with it. His approach found no favour with his master!

I remain a little unclear about exactly what behaviour you fear will arise from dating that would be sinful.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

This reminds me of the parable about the 3 servants, one of whom buried his talent in the ground rather than doing something with it. His approach found no favour with his master!

Indeed! A constant fear that one* might *be doing the wrong thing and the subsequent avoidance of anything that *might look like a near occasion of sin is no good substitute for the virtue of self-control. Beating yourself up over having a crush or being attracted to another human being is actually not *what chastity looks like.

We’re Christians on a journey of sanctification. We need to be okay with being on the journey. That means being okay with not yet being at our destination. Nothing is learned via osmosis. No one matures without resistance from somewhere or something. No one “grows up” in an instant. We don’t suddenly become the good and holy people we desire to be just because we want it very badly. We need to journey. We need to move. We need to walk the Way which leads to Jesus Christ and which, in a great and glorious mystery of mercy, is Christ, too. The Kingdom of Heaven is already with us, but it is also coming. We live in a moment of “already, but not yet.” We need to be okay with living that eschatological paradox: we need to be okay with being on the journey.

If our desire to be where we’re going leads us to hate the journey which will actually get us to where we’re going, we might find ourselves stuck by the roadside, resenting the road and our fellow travelers, and lost in our own anger and frustration at our all-too evident imperfections and failures. Again: we need to be okay with being on the journey.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

First, I assume you have been to confession since then. Do not withhold for yourself the forgiveness that God has given you.

Third, please make an appointment with a priest ASAP. You need spiritual guidance from someone qualified. For your own sake, please reach out to your local parish.

Second, your struggles are not unusual! Almost all men on the planet struggle with masturbation (or engage in it). It is simply part of life for most individuals.

This is not accurate. I do not represent what it is you say to be true of almost all men. You don’t know almost all men, nor have you spoken to almost all men and you cannot conclude anything other than to say…

Masturbation exists…

Some Masturbate…Some don’t

You are way out of your league in offering advice.

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Indeed! A constant fear that one* might *be doing the wrong thing and the subsequent avoidance of anything that *might look like a near occasion of sin is no good substitute for the virtue of self-control. Beating yourself up over having a crush or being attracted to another human being is actually not *what chastity looks like.

We’re Christians on a journey of sanctification. We need to be okay with being on the journey. That means being okay with not yet being at our destination. Nothing is learned via osmosis. No one matures without resistance from somewhere or something. No one “grows up” in an instant. We don’t suddenly become the good and holy people we desire to be just because we want it very badly. We need to journey. We need to move. We need to walk the Way which leads to Jesus Christ and which, in a great and glorious mystery of mercy, is Christ, too. The Kingdom of Heaven is already with us, but it is also coming. We live in a moment of “already, but not yet.” We need to be okay with living that eschatological paradox: we need to be okay with being on the journey.

If our desire to be where we’re going leads us to hate the journey which will actually get us to where we’re going, we might find ourselves stuck by the roadside, resenting the road and our fellow travelers, and lost in our own anger and frustration at our all-too evident imperfections and failures. Again: we need to be okay with being on the journey.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

You have proclaimed yourself to be a Homosexual, in a male/male relationship of long standing and I take excetption to your offering advice on Chastity.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

You have proclaimed yourself to be a Homosexual, in a male/male relationship of long standing and I take excetption to your offering advice on Chastity.

You are free to take exception to anything (though why take what may be freely given?).

Regardless, if what I have written above is untrue, point out to me the untruth.

It appears that you disagree with what I’ve written because you disagree with me based on your lurid fantasy of what it might mean for someone like me to be in an actual relationship…as opposed to the reality of what it might mean for someone like me to be in an actual relationship. You’re making a lot of assumptions about my life and activities. If only for the sake of honesty, you would do well to stop making such assumptions.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

You are free to take exception to anything (though why take what may be freely given?).

Regardless, if what I have written above is untrue, point out to me the untruth.

It appears that you disagree with what I’ve written because you disagree with me based on your lurid fantasy of what it might mean for someone like me to be in an actual relationship as opposed to the reality of what it might mean for someone like me to be in an actual relationship. You’re making a lot of assumptions about my life and activities. If only for the sake of honesty, you would do well to stop making such assumptions.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

Homosexuals in homosexual relationships should evaluate their own issues about Chastity rather than believing that their thoughts on Chastity as it concerns Christianity are complete.

The entire 6th commandment is about issues related to how we value ourselves and our neighbor and in the Catechism…it points out…

Adultery
Masturbation
Lust
Homosexuality
Rape
Incest
Pornography…

Be true to yourself and the CAF…

If someone comes offering advice…then it would be appropriate to say…

I live the life of the Church to the best of my ability with the grace through the Sacraments, and having struggled myself…this is what I see…

This is far different from

I Lust, manufacture Pornography, commit Adultery weekly, practice incest, am actively Homosexual, masturbating daily…and here is what I offer you…

Pick your sin and manufacture the sentence…be honest enough to say…

I am a homosexual, in a homosexual relationship and here are my thoughts on Chastity…

 

[Kamaduck]

Coptic, would you advise the OP to avoid dating on the grounds that he might end up sinning because of it?

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, would you advise the OP to avoid dating on the grounds that he might end up sinning because of it?

I would love to engage the OP. I want to start with the simple questions I posed as a starting ground that the OP has failed to respond to. I need a platform for conversation so that there can be mutual understanding.

**Rk,

I have some questions for you.

Have you read the Catechism cover to cover?

Are you aware of Lust being one of the 7 deadly sins? **

This is where I ask the conversation to start.

 

[Kamaduck]

I would love to engage the OP. I want to start with the simple questions I posed as a starting ground that the OP has failed to respond to. I need a platform for conversation so that there can be mutual understanding.

This is where I ask the conversation to start.

He already answered those questions twice. He has studied the catechism but hasn’t read it cover-to-cover, and he is aware that lust is one of the seven deadly sins.

 

[rkwittem]

This reminds me of the parable about the 3 servants, one of whom buried his talent in the ground rather than doing something with it. His approach found no favour with his master!

I remain a little unclear about exactly what behaviour you fear will arise from dating that would be sinful.

Surely I don’t need to explain this? You date someone you “like” (whatever that means for you). Unfortunately, almost everyone uses sexual attraction as one of their standards. This essentially means I would have to avoid reflexive, automatic sexual thoughts/feelings about whoever I’m dating at the time. I wasn’t aware I had to be ultra-specific. I simply want to avoid sexual sin in whatever shape or form it takes. That is impossible in a dating situation.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Mark,

Homosexuals in homosexual relationships should evaluate their own issues about Chastity rather than believing that their thoughts on Chastity as it concerns Christianity are complete.

The entire 6th commandment is about issues related to how we value ourselves and our neighbor and in the Catechism…it points out…

Adultery
Masturbation
Lust
Homosexuality
Rape
Incest
Pornography…

Be true to yourself and the CAF…

If someone comes offering advice…then it would be appropriate to say…

I live the life of the Church to the best of my ability with the grace through the Sacraments, and having struggled myself…this is what I see…

This is far different from

I Lust, manufacture Pornography, commit Adultery weekly, practice incest, am actively Homosexual, masturbating daily…and here is what I offer you…

Pick your sin and manufacture the sentence…be honest enough to say…

I am a homosexual, in a homosexual relationship and here are my thoughts on Chastity…

Two things, Coptic:

1: If only the perfectly virtuous are authorized to speak of virtue–which is to say, authorized to attempt to understand virtue–then we should all be silent and ignorant. Happily, though, that’s not the case. Even if we cannot completely understand the virtues to which we aspire, it does us good to articulate our aspiration.

Anyway, you’re engaging here in an extended ad hominem. It seems that in your estimation, I’m not virtuous enough to speak of virtue–and that not simply because I’m a sinner like everyone else, but because you assume I’m engaging in particularly special sins on account of my sexual orientation. On what evidence do you presume to know my sins so well, Coptic? Moreover, it appears as if you’re saying that I’m not Christian enough to speak of virtue–and that because I don’t belong to the Roman Church. All of this, again, has more to do with your tendency to solipsism and ideological pedagoguery than it does with morality or theology.

2: If what I’ve written in post #142 above is untrue, point out to me the untruth.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Two things, Coptic:

1: If only the perfectly virtuous are authorized to speak of virtue–which is to say, authorized to attempt to understand virtue–then we should all be silent and ignorant. Happily, though, that’s not the case. Even if we cannot completely understand the virtues to which we aspire, it does us good to articulate our aspiration.

Anyway, you’re engaging here in an extended ad hominem. It seems that in your estimation, I’m not virtuous enough to speak of virtue–and that not simply because I’m a sinner like everyone else, but because you assume I’m engaging in particularly special sins on account of my sexual orientation. On what evidence do you presume to know my sins so well, Coptic? Moreover, it appears as if you’re saying that I’m not Christian enough to speak of virtue–and that because I don’t belong to the Roman Church. All of this, again, has more to do with your tendency to solipsism and ideological pedagoguery than it does with morality or theology.

2: If what I’ve written in post #142 above is untrue, point out to me the untruth.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

I am making no such suggestion. I am making no exception to the need for virtue in all aspects of Chastity. When it comes to advice, on this CAF, as a Catholic, I make no exception.

Are you suggesting that you make an exception to all aspects of Chastity, believing that being homosexual and being in a homosexual relationship does not violate the teaching on Chastity as proposed in the Catechism, that is the foundation for anyone to promote advice concerning Chastity? A simple yes or no would do.

 

[rkwittem]

Mark,

I am making no such suggestion. I am making no exception to the need for virtue in all aspects of Chastity. When it comes to advice, on this CAF, as a Catholic, I make no exception.

Are you suggesting that you make an exception to all aspects of Chastity, believing that being homosexual and being in a homosexual relationship does not violate the teaching on Chastity as proposed in the Catechism, that is the foundation for anyone to promote advice concerning Chastity? A simple yes or no would do.

Dude, enough with the mud-slinging. Whether or not he’s homosexual has nothing to do with this question at hand, as far as I see it. I would suggest you stay on-topic, especially since you told Kamaduck that you “would love to engage the OP.”

 

[Kamaduck]

Surely I don’t need to explain this? You date someone you “like” (whatever that means for you). Unfortunately, almost everyone uses sexual attraction as one of their standards. This essentially means I would have to avoid reflexive, automatic sexual thoughts/feelings about whoever I’m dating at the time. I wasn’t aware I had to be ultra-specific. I simply want to avoid sexual sin in whatever shape or form it takes. That is impossible in a dating situation.

The thing is, if you’re not dwelling on those thoughts, you are not sinning. So if you won’t dwell on those thoughts, what’s the “moral risk”?

People use sexual attraction as one of their standards because sex is an important part of marriage. You don’t marry someone who you don’t want to have sex with, and you ideally don’t date someone you would never want to marry.

 

[Jessie5000]

There nothing wrong with feeling attracted to another. If you look at a woman and say, “Wow, she turns me on.” This is okay. Our attracts are hard wired as part of our sexuality. These thoughts are sort of like a bird that lands in a tree… but one must just not allow the bird to to build a nest. If we allow ourself to fantasize, linger on our attraction and allow ourselves to just dwell on sex…
this is lust. Being attracted to a person is just natural so accept this and move on. It is whether you act upon this thought our allow it nest and grow in your heart.

Many men are also concerned that waking up in the morning with an erection is also a sin…
nope, this is caused by a full bladder and is not sin. Other erections when you are young are soley due to high levels of testosterone and not indicative of sin for many younger men can not avoid these, even if they wanted to.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Four things, Coptic.

I am making no such suggestion. I am making no exception to the need for virtue in all aspects of Chastity. When it comes to advice, on this CAF, as a Catholic, I make no exception.

1: This is a non sequitur. I didn’t suggest that you were making exceptions. I was suggesting that because you believe I am engaging in particularly special sins that I cannot understand, articulate or aspire to virtue in a way that you would deem “correct.”

Are you suggesting that you make an exception to all aspects of Chastity, believing that being homosexual and being in a homosexual relationship does not violate the teaching on Chastity as proposed in the Catechism, that is the foundation for anyone to promote advice concerning Chastity? A simple yes or no would do.

2: Again, this is a non sequitur. I was neither making nor talking about exceptions to anything.

3: You are making a lot of assumptions about whether or not I am chaste. On what actual evidence, apart from your own lurid fantasies, do you base these assumptions?

4: If what I’ve written in post #142 above is untrue, point out to me the untruth.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Baelor]

This is not accurate.

Of course it is.

psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/200903/how-common-is-masturbation-really
Women–jezebel.com/5107639/92-of-women-masturbate-but-how-often-do-they-do-it
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbation#Frequency.2C_age.2C_and_sex
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CE4QFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmcclungclinic.com%2Ffiles%2Fmasturbation2.doc&ei=QZqnUdmZO8nN0AGMhoDAAQ&usg=AFQjCNGzaYbnFOfGrcDrGcJdbLU82J9QrQ&bvm=bv.47244034,d.dmQ&cad=rja
pleasuresofloving.com/masturbation.html
pleated-jeans.com/2011/04/18/infographic-masturbation-facts-and-statistics/

I do not represent what it is you say to be true of almost all men.

So? I never claimed you were representative of the male population. I simply stated what is statistically accurate.

You don’t know almost all men, nor have you spoken to almost all men and you cannot conclude anything other than to say…

The studies do that for me. That is why the field of statistics exist. Perhaps you should read a statistics book to understand why sample populations of a given size accurately reflect with a very small chance of error features of a larger population. Censuses are not necessary.

Masturbation exists…

Some Masturbate…Some don’t

You are way out of your league in offering advice.

Clearly not.

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Four things, Coptic.

1: This is a non sequitur. I didn’t suggest that you were making exceptions. I was suggesting that because you believe I am engaging in particularly special sins that I cannot understand, articulate or aspire to virtue in a way that you would deem “correct.”

2: Again, this is a non sequitur. I was neither making nor talking about exceptions to anything.

3: You are making a lot of assumptions about whether or not I am chaste. On what actual evidence, apart from your own lurid fantasies, do you base these assumptions?

4: If what I’ve written in post #142 above is untrue, point out to me the untruth.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

You have posted what it is you do, chastising someone for suggesting that in giving yourself to your handsome partner, that this is not love. Shall I produce your own words or do we let this rest?

 

[rkwittem]

There nothing wrong with feeling attracted to another. If you look at a woman and say, “Wow, she turns me on.” This is okay. Our attracts are hard wired as part of our sexuality. These thoughts are sort of like a bird that lands in a tree… but one must just not allow the bird to to build a nest. If we allow ourself to fantasize, linger on our attraction and allow ourselves to just dwell on sex…
this is lust. Being attracted to a person is just natural so accept this and move on. It is whether you act upon this thought our allow it nest and grow in your heart.

Many men are also concerned that waking up in the morning with an erection is also a sin…
nope, this is caused by a full bladder and is not sin. Other erections when you are young are soley due to high levels of testosterone and not indicative of sin for many younger men can not avoid these, even if they wanted to.

That sounds like lust to me.