S
stiffkittenbabe
Guest
So what you are really saying is, that when hiding people from Nazis and they asked you, you would be obliged to either tell the truth or arouse suspicion by being silent?
How ridiculous!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
How ridiculous!
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
I agree with you that it is ridiculous but why is it ridiculous?So what you are really saying is, that when hiding people from Nazis and they asked you, you would be obliged to either tell the truth or arouse suspicion by being silent? How ridiculous!
A
aragonjohn1
Guest
Fr John Ricardo quoting from the council of something. Cd number 207 I believe.This is a very interesting definition. Although I’ve seen dozens of threads on this subject, I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a succinct reply.
Can you (or anyone) cite some authority on this? It seems reasonable at first blush but I need to think about it more.
Thanks for calling me succinct !
Shalom
God bless
C
chosen_people
Guest
A Jewish perspective to those Christians who believe that it would be a sin (or immoral) to lie to a Nazi about where Jews are hidden:
Although Christians often speak of “Judeo-Christian” ethics and morality, although many Christians seriously believe that Christianity is merely “Judaism with Jesus”, the example of lying to the Nazi in order to not reveal where the Jews are hidden, is an excellent example to show just how conceptually different Judaism is from Catholicism.
God commands us in the Torah to not stand by while another’s blood is shed (Vayikra [Leviticus] 19:16). In the same chapter we see that not only should we give charity but that a land owner is commanded to leave part of his field for the poor. The basic central essence of Judaism is the fundamental responsibility that each and everyone of us has toward all others. Each and everyone of us has his part to play in the scheme of the world. Therefore the loss of one life is as the loss of a whole world. Sanctity of life is an overriding principle that with the exceptions of idolatry, incest or murder takes precedence over any and all commandments.
These principles are the antithesis to Hellenistic Christianity. Accordingly, the ultimate goal of life here is to get eternal life in the world to come. It is the responsibility and the concern of the individual to live his/her life in a way that will allow this to happen. If the Christian lies to the Nazi about where the Jews are hiding than he/she has sinned. The sin endangers or may prevent the goal of the individual eternal life. The Christian is not responsible for the actions of the Nazi who will take the Jews out and kill them. He/she has no wish for that to happen. Therefore the Christian must tell the truth and reveal their hiding place. At the very least he/she must repent their “sin” if he/she deceives the Nazi.
However, in Judaism, the sin, the most immoral thing possible, would be to not lie to the Nazi and not to protect the lives of those in hiding. The person not lying and revealing the hiding place, knowing full well what the Nazi will do, bears responsibility for their deaths. That is the person who almost certainly endangers any chance of the world to come.
When else can we see in the Jewish scriptures and Talmud that it would be permissible to lie? When such a lie is necessary for the peace of the family “shalom bayit”. So if your wife asks you if she looks fat, please don’t feel obligated to give a clear cut truthful answer.
The question here concerned lying on an insurance form. The insurance policy between the insurance company and the insured is a contract. The acceptance of the contract, as well as the setting of insurance rate, is based, among other things, on the the answers given to the questionnaire. It may be presumed that the advice of the agent to lie on the form, is proof that had the questionnaire been properly and accurately filled out, it would have resulted in either higher insurance premiums or in a decision of the company not to insure the applicant. The insurance agent no doubt feared to lose his fee. From a civil law perspective, the falsely filled out form would result in the contract being invalid and the non payment of the insurance claim. It could also result in criminal charges for insurance fraud or the receipt of payment through fraud. So not only is it a sin, it is against the law!
Although Christians often speak of “Judeo-Christian” ethics and morality, although many Christians seriously believe that Christianity is merely “Judaism with Jesus”, the example of lying to the Nazi in order to not reveal where the Jews are hidden, is an excellent example to show just how conceptually different Judaism is from Catholicism.
God commands us in the Torah to not stand by while another’s blood is shed (Vayikra [Leviticus] 19:16). In the same chapter we see that not only should we give charity but that a land owner is commanded to leave part of his field for the poor. The basic central essence of Judaism is the fundamental responsibility that each and everyone of us has toward all others. Each and everyone of us has his part to play in the scheme of the world. Therefore the loss of one life is as the loss of a whole world. Sanctity of life is an overriding principle that with the exceptions of idolatry, incest or murder takes precedence over any and all commandments.
These principles are the antithesis to Hellenistic Christianity. Accordingly, the ultimate goal of life here is to get eternal life in the world to come. It is the responsibility and the concern of the individual to live his/her life in a way that will allow this to happen. If the Christian lies to the Nazi about where the Jews are hiding than he/she has sinned. The sin endangers or may prevent the goal of the individual eternal life. The Christian is not responsible for the actions of the Nazi who will take the Jews out and kill them. He/she has no wish for that to happen. Therefore the Christian must tell the truth and reveal their hiding place. At the very least he/she must repent their “sin” if he/she deceives the Nazi.
However, in Judaism, the sin, the most immoral thing possible, would be to not lie to the Nazi and not to protect the lives of those in hiding. The person not lying and revealing the hiding place, knowing full well what the Nazi will do, bears responsibility for their deaths. That is the person who almost certainly endangers any chance of the world to come.
When else can we see in the Jewish scriptures and Talmud that it would be permissible to lie? When such a lie is necessary for the peace of the family “shalom bayit”. So if your wife asks you if she looks fat, please don’t feel obligated to give a clear cut truthful answer.
The question here concerned lying on an insurance form. The insurance policy between the insurance company and the insured is a contract. The acceptance of the contract, as well as the setting of insurance rate, is based, among other things, on the the answers given to the questionnaire. It may be presumed that the advice of the agent to lie on the form, is proof that had the questionnaire been properly and accurately filled out, it would have resulted in either higher insurance premiums or in a decision of the company not to insure the applicant. The insurance agent no doubt feared to lose his fee. From a civil law perspective, the falsely filled out form would result in the contract being invalid and the non payment of the insurance claim. It could also result in criminal charges for insurance fraud or the receipt of payment through fraud. So not only is it a sin, it is against the law!
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
This is an interesting moral problem that is well worth the discussion. I think if you surveyed Christians you’d find 95% in favor of what you describe as the Jewish perspective. The absolutist perspective is much more a consequence of philosophy than theology and most often those who argue absolutely against lying quote not Jesus but Kant.A Jewish perspective to those Christians who believe that it would be a sin (or immoral) to lie to a Nazi about where Jews are hidden:
There is an interesting parallel to violence. You will find pacifist Christians (e.g. the Anabaptists and derivations like the Amish) and you will find Christians at least professing to be generally opposed to violence but most will make the quite obvious and simlar exceptions for situations where standing by will allow evil to be done. (Those who argue for exceptional violence cite Jesus instructions to his apostles to buy swords, Luke 22:36.)
But unlike Just War theory, which lays out the situations where war can be justified, or the legal principle of self defense, I don’t think you will find any sort of well thought out theory of when it is ok to lie. There is no Taquia in Christianity and perhaps it is best explained as a general rule in favor of honesty with an unspoken area of exception in extraordinary situations.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.