When is the death penalty justified?

[vern_humphrey]

you should defend yourself in your own domain…yes, that i agree with. i don’t believe in carrying guns out in public.

Out in public is my own domain. I am a citizen. I have a right to walk the public streets, attend church, go to the library. And whenever I do, I carry something very valuable – my life. If someone tries to take it, I don’t want to have to wait hours for the police to finish their donut break.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

There is too much room for error if we start allowing the public to carry guns…because there are too many people who would use them…in road rage…in domestic arguments…

Why did you repeat this provably false claim knowing full well that all practical evidence points to exactly the opposite result? The instruction to not bear false witness does not contain an exception for deliberate political misinformation.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Article 2266 in the Catechism reads: “…the Church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalities commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty.” Further in article 2266 it reads: “punishment has the effect of preserving public order and the safety of persons”.

We already know we must forgive, love our enimies, and do good to those who persucute us, but does that mean we ignore this article? Why would the Church state this if She didn’t stand by it?

My question regards preserving public order and the safety of persons with regards to the death penalty. Would it not be preserving the public order and the safety of persons if there was an automatic death penalty for being convicted for killing a cop? Even if the criminal was to claim manslaughter and that he only meant to shoot at, but not kill, can not the death penalty still be used to “preserve the safety of” police officiers?

Fear of the Lord is a gift, and therefore has value. Does not fear of killing a police officier also have value? A criminal knows he’s going to get busted with a lot of prison time for a serious crime. Since he knows that killing a cop would only mean additional time to serve in prison tacked on to a lot of time already, why would he not try to escape arrest? Without fear of the implications, why would he not shoot at a cop in order to escape, especially since he knows the death penalty is not an option before the crime?

I know there are some bad cops out there, but I also know there are many good ones, who put their life on the line to protect you and me.

If the death penalty could be used as a means to make people fear to commit violent crime, does it not then become a life-saving tool? We can only keep track of crime statistics, but we can’t keep track of the number of people who decided not to commit crime due to fear of the implications. What would the Church say regarding an automatic death penalty for killing a police officer, whether it was with intent, or unintentionally while trying to escape arrest, in order to “preserve the public order and the safety of citizens”?

“When is the death penalty justified?”​

IMO, in cases of:

• murder
• treason
• spying
• rebellion
• perjury in a capital case
• kidnapping of children
• child abuse

 

[whatevergirl]

Why did you repeat this provably false claim knowing full well that all practical evidence points to exactly the opposite result? The instruction to not bear false witness does not contain an exception for deliberate political misinformation.

oh is that why gun related crimes are up 44% in orlando? i have no idea why you are accusing me of bearing false witness–numbers don’t lie. if you want to carry a gun and fight for that right…it’s your option. i will be the one fighting against that…so, i have a right to speak up for what i believe just like you do.

 

[whatevergirl]

Out in public is my own domain. I am a citizen. I have a right to walk the public streets, attend church, go to the library. And whenever I do, I carry something very valuable – my life. If someone tries to take it, I don’t want to have to wait hours for the police to finish their donut break.

so–we should become our own police, so to speak? our own vigilantes?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I dunno , ask Charlie Zeaiter. He keeps tossing in the gun stuff.

Hi again,

I think we all agree with the Catholic Church when it allows the death penalty if there are no other ways to protect the community.

But early in the thread, it was mentioned that the prison system can not protect the community.

I then made the suggestion, that such people who do not feel comfortable with the prison system, and hence want the death penalty, are usually the same people who want guns in the community.

I also made the snide remark, it is a “kill, or be killed” mentality. If you can’t kill them before the trial with your gun, then kill them after the trial with your death penalty. But that didn’t go down too well.

And now vern wants statistics to explain why the murder rate is so high in America. But I can’t help him there.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

if you want to carry a gun and fight for that right…it’s your option. i will be the one fighting against that…so, i have a right to speak up for what i believe just like you do.

You are correct, numbers don’t lie, and you and I both know the numbers say that allowing the public to carry guns universally reduces their overall usage in criminal acts, whether or not one’s “beliefs” are based on a prejudice against that outcome.

I have no moral issue with you continuing to believe public carry is not ideal - that is a legitimate point of debate (on which we disagree).

However, it is morally inappropriate to suggest that making a provably false presumption about the known outcomes of public carry can justified solely by the fact that one holds a belief against public carry. (See the definition of “moral relativism” for more on this logical error).

 

[jmcrae]

The same person who judges your mental stading when you vote, renew your driver’s licence, take your new-born baby home, and do many other things that require a stable personality.

So far in my life, no one has ever asked me to pass a psychological exam before voting, renewing my driver’s license, or bringing my babies home.

 

[whatevergirl]

You are correct, numbers don’t lie, and you and I both know the numbers say that allowing the public to carry guns universally reduces their overall usage in criminal acts, whether or not one’s “beliefs” are based on a prejudice against that outcome.

I have no moral issue with you continuing to believe public carry is not ideal - that is a legitimate point of debate (on which we disagree).

However, it is morally inappropriate to suggest that making a provably false presumption about the known outcomes of public carry can justified solely by the fact that one holds a belief against public carry. (See the definition of “moral relativism” for more on this logical error).

I know what moral relativism is…it’s ‘what is true for me, is truth.’ I don’t subscribe to that thinking whatsoever. I don’t see anything wrong with having a gun for protection at home…in the home. Around the home…in your car, even…but, not carrying it around at a ballgame…or in church…or at a carnival…or at the grocery store…I see that as being excessive. That is my opinion, and not moral relativism. I do know that we need to protect ourselves…that we should have that right. I just think that packing a gun everywhere we go…it could lead to serious consequences.

 

[whatevergirl]

So far in my life, no one has ever asked me to pass a psychological exam before voting, renewing my driver’s license, or bringing my babies home.

I think that was his point.

 

[whatevergirl]

Hi again,

I think we all agree with the Catholic Church when it allows the death penalty if there are no other ways to protect the community.

But early in the thread, it was mentioned that the prison system can not protect the community.

I then made the suggestion, that such people who do not feel comfortable with the prison system, and hence want the death penalty, are usually the same people who want guns in the community.

I also made the snide remark, it is a “kill, or be killed” mentality. If you can’t kill them before the trial with your gun, then kill them after the trial with your death penalty. But that didn’t go down too well.

And now vern wants statistics to explain why the murder rate is so high in America. But I can’t help him there.

what is surprising and somewhat shocking…is that this is often a Catholic stance…I don’t get that. It’s a confusing statement to say…I’m pro life, but I support the death penalty.

 

[jmcrae]

what is surprising and somewhat shocking…is that this is often a Catholic stance…I don’t get that. It’s a confusing statement to say…I’m pro life, but I support the death penalty.

One of the things that first attracted me to the Church was, at the official level, the consistency of being pro-life from conception until natural death.

It’s really only on the Internet that I’ve encountered Catholics who are in favour of the death penalty - I haven’t encountered it in real life, yet.

 

[vern_humphrey]

oh is that why gun related crimes are up 44% in orlando? i have no idea why you are accusing me of bearing false witness–numbers don’t lie. if you want to carry a gun and fight for that right…it’s your option. i will be the one fighting against that…so, i have a right to speak up for what i believe just like you do.

You have a right to infringe on other people’s rights?

 

[vern_humphrey]

so–we should become our own police, so to speak? our own vigilantes?

Self-defense is vigilanteism?

Better tell the Catholic Church that when it says we have a right to self-defense it’s encouraging vigilanteism!!

 

[whatevergirl]

One of the things that first attracted me to the Church was, at the official level, the consistency of being pro-life from conception until natural death.

It’s really only on the Internet that I’ve encountered Catholics who are in favour of the death penalty - I haven’t encountered it in real life, yet.

ha–really? that’s funny.

interesting.

 

[whatevergirl]

Self-defense is vigilanteism?

Better tell the Catholic Church that when it says we have a right to self-defense it’s encouraging vigilanteism!!

you know what i mean vern…I’m talking more if you take matters into your own hands, and I do believe people will.

secondly…one does not have to pack a gun to be a devout Catholic.

 

[whatevergirl]

You have a right to infringe on other people’s rights?

I think we need clarity here. I am not against guns…like I don’t believe they should be banned. But, I believe they shouldn’t be carried outside of the home or your personal car. Shouldn’t be allowed to have them in work…shouldn’t be allowed to carry them into a library…or classroom…or a grocery store. I am against them being carried into public areas, especially highly populated ones.

 

[whatevergirl]

Does it mean anything that Pope JP2 went to a prison to forgive the man who tried to kill him? He showed mercy, and the man converted. That is why I’m against the DP…it doesn’t leave room for something like that to happen.

 

[vern_humphrey]

you know what i mean vern…I’m talking more if you take matters into your own hands, and I do believe people will.

What’s with the use of the future tense, “will?” Florida has had concealed carry for more than a quarter of a century – and hasn’t had the calamaties you “predict.”

secondly…one does not have to pack a gun to be a devout Catholic.

Devout Catholics do not go around infringing other people’s rights and denying them what they need to protect their families.

 

[jmcrae]

Self-defense is vigilanteism?

Better tell the Catholic Church that when it says we have a right to self-defense it’s encouraging vigilanteism!!

I think everyone should own a gun, even the crazy people. Don’t they deserve to defend themselves, too?

In any case, I’ve never heard of a mental health check for getting a gun. I see lots of people who probably shouldn’t be driving cruising through town with a gun on the rack. They’re safer than anyone - everybody just leaves them alone.

When my god son was about four or five years old, his Mom got herself a handgun. It was empty, and he was just holding it quietly in the front seat. Some guy jumped out of his car at a stop light to yell at her because she did something he didn’t like while driving - when he got to the window and saw the gun, he just calmed right down and said, “Oh, sorry lady - my mistake!” and then carried on his way.