When it comes to salvation, God does not pull from the pool of "people who do not do good"

[De_Maria]

De Maria, you quote Scripture too selectively.

That’s a virtue, not a failing. I quote Scripture to support my arguments. And no, I don’t take Scripture out of context.

In most of the instances that you cited, it was not the works themselves that justified or saved, but the faith (and love) behind the righteous works.

You’re wrong. It was neither the faith nor works that saved, but God who saved those who proved their faith by their works. Let me quote you something else:

CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

…because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

Neither your faith nor your works will justify you. It is God who justifies. But God does not justify those who have not proved their faith by their works.

For now I will examine only Paul’s letter to the Romans, which you quoted as follows:

(Romans 2:13) For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

This is part of a larger passage where Paul reprimands those among the Jews who possessed the law as part of their tradition (“hear the law”) but did not keep it. Let’s read on:

Before you go there, go back to the beginning of Romans 2. St. Paul builds upon this:

6 who will repay everyone according to his works:[c] 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

Clearly stated here is the idea that God will reward those who do good and punish those who do not.

(Romans 3:23-24) all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus…
(3:27) What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith.
(3:31) Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not! On the contrary, we are supporting the law.

These words do not contradict this, “rather, those who observe the law will be justified”. In fact, one must Romans 2 is the base upon which Romans 3 is expounded.

That last verse tells us that faith leads one to do good works.

Agreed. But faith does not equal salvation or justification. Thus, without works, faith does not justify nor save.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with RandomAlias:

In Romans 4, Paul compares works to wages, in contrast to God’s free gift:

(Romans 4:2-4) Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due.

True. But what about merit? Although Protestants love to equate merit and earning, they are, in fact, not the same.

Do you understand the difference? No? Maybe an example will help illustrate.

I have a daughter. I said to her, “if you graduate, I will give you a car.” She graduated, I gave her the car.

Did she earn the car? No.
Did she merit the car? Yes.

What’s the difference?

Well, if she took her diploma to the car dealership, would she be able to exchange her diploma for the car? No. Because in the car dealers eyes, her diploma is worthless. So, she didn’t earn the car.

In whose eyes does the diploma have any value? In mine. Therefore, she merited the car. I paid for it and she received the free will gift.

Ok, so let’s translate it to our salvation. God said, if you do good works, you will be saved. (Matt 25:31-46).

The Saints did good works. God saved them. Did they earn salvation? No. Without God’s promise they could hardly get into heaven.

Did they merit salvation? Yes. In God’s eyes, their works accomplished His will and merited salvation, IN HIS EYES.

(4:13-16) It was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world, but through the righteousness that comes from faith. For if those who adhere to the law are the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law produces wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation. For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham…

Scripture does not contradict itself. Here is what Scripture says elsewhere about Abraham:
Genesis 26:5 this because Abraham obeyed me, keeping my mandate, my commandments, my ordinances, and my instructions.

Which proves that if Abraham had not done God’s will, his faith alone would not have saved him.

And speaking of wages vs. gift…

(Romans 6:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This brings up an interesting question. If bad works are wages for death, and good works are wages for justification, could our bad and good works cancel out on the scales of justice? Could any amount of sin on one side of the scale be overcome by a sufficient amount of good works on the other side of the scale? No! To believe this would be to claim that we have a power as great as God, the power to save ourselves.

You’re neglecting the Catholic Teaching of merit.

None of those verses you provided contradict the verses I have expounded upon. The bottom line remains, God does not save those who do not do good works.

 

[De_Maria]

Wesrock said:

I fear you’re putting the cart before the horse here. No righteous act can be done apart from God prompting us to that act to begin with,

When did I deny this?

and God does not prompt us to good acts based on any passed merit.

The initial grace of conversion is not merited. But according to Catholic Doctrine, thereafter, our good deeds in response to grace do merit more grace.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

It is true that someone who persists in sins will not find themselves saved, it’s not as if God plucks people for salvation without regard to whether they respond positively to His grace, but neither does He only offer graces to people who merit it, as if they could merit it apart from Him.

Nor did I imply such a thing.

God could very well convert someone who, prior to conversion, never performed a charitable act in his whole live. That gift of conversion (and eventually salvation) is not granted only to people who earn it in some way prior to initial justification.

That’s a misunderstanding. God does not coerce conversion. God offers the grace to convert and awaits the person’s will to cooperate.

TRENT VI, CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; …

[/QUOTE]

 

[Wesrock]

God could very well convert someone who, prior to conversion, never performed a charitable act in his whole live. That gift of conversion (and eventually salvation) is not granted only to people who earn it in some way prior to initial justification.

Just to clarify what I said, I implied no coercion. That a person never previously performed a charitable act in His life doesn’t prevent God from sending a call to justification. He still has to respond at that time, of course.

So, with that said, I think your post clarified a lot. I think most people here, myself included as the discussion continued, understood you to be saying that God would not send any graces or initial justification unless the person merited it first. When you started defending Paul’s conversion, it sounded as if you were saying that God would not have called to Him if Paul had not ALREADY earned those graces.

 

[De_Maria]

Just to clarify what I said, I implied no coercion. That a person never previously performed a charitable act in His life doesn’t prevent God from sending a call to justification.

Agreed and Catholic Teaching.

He still has to respond at that time, of course.

Of course.

So, with that said, I think your post clarified a lot. I think most people here, myself included as the discussion continued, understood you to be saying that God would not send any graces or initial justification unless the person merited it first. When you started defending Paul’s conversion, it sounded as if you were saying that God would not have called to Him if Paul had not ALREADY earned those graces.

OK. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Zaccheus]

@De_Maria:
I think we are not so far apart as I first thought. We agree that salvation is a gift, that it takes faith to accept it and that faith requires that we be willing to perform works.
God’s blessing upon you.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I am out of this discussion. I haven’t read past my last reply, swags of cherry picked quotes tell me the discussion is not from the heart. In fact , dear, it’s not a discussion, you are attempting a debate.

The very first thing we are taught, in discussing evangelising is to discuss. Not to debate. Your style may suit you, but those still on their journey home , with very tiny seeds of faith, or lukewarm, or doubting, or straight out atheist, in my world., And believe me , there are a lot of them,

Would just tune out at this ‘lecture’ style .

To enable discussion, we need to listen first, and then discuss, from the heart, and then listen again.

The best witness we can give to the Glory of God, after shaping our lives in the imitation of Jesus, is to thoroughly learn what Jesus taught, what God wanted us to know for our salvation in the Old Testament, know the cultural context and who , in the New Testament , the teaching was directed to,

And then simply, quietly, slowly , in very small increments, respond from the heart.

We must be able to discuss our Salvation history, that history God started revealing to us in the Old Testament, and then sent His Son incarnate to teach in the New Testament, and then call wonderful people like the Apostles, Mary Magdalene and St Paul to continue that teaching,
In real life, without the aide of cut n paste.

And with pause.

There are times where only one word, line , action , has converted the most unbelieving sinners out there.

God is love mercy forgiveness.

 

[De_Maria]

I am out of this discussion.

Ok.

I haven’t read past my last reply, … Your style may suit you,…

It does.

Would just tune out at this ‘lecture’ style .

But you are the one with the lecture style. I’m the one who supports his claims with evidence.

To enable discussion, we need to listen first, and then discuss, from the heart, and then listen again.

That goes both ways.

The best witness we can give to the Glory of God, after shaping our lives in the imitation of Jesus,…

No doubt.

And then simply, quietly, slowly , in very small increments, respond from the heart.

Don’t look now, but you’re lecturing again. All the things you’re mentioning are relative. How quiet is quiet? I doubt you’ll be satisfied unless someone completely acquiesces to your beliefs and dares not respond. How slow is slow? Do you reserve the right to respond to anything I say, immediately but require that I should wait and consider the weight of your brilliant wisdom for several days? How small is small? Do you want everything parsed to the level of a first grade text book?

We must be able to discuss our Salvation history,…

I’m quite capable.

In real life, without the aide of cut n paste.

You can do it anyway you want.

And with pause.

There are times where only one word, line , action , has converted the most unbelieving sinners out there.

But they are very few. Usually, it takes years. Have you ever watched the Journey Home?

God is love mercy forgiveness.

Amen!

 

[RandomAlias]

I’m out of here too. There is no dialogue. Just one poster not responding so much as shouting down all opposition.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[StarMapp]

CC 2006-2011

III. MERIT

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59

2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

63 St. Thérèse of Lisieux, “Act of Offering” in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington DC: ICS, 1981), 277.

 

[De_Maria]

Now you’re understanding.

Actually, you have totally missed the point in this conversion story and how it changed the salvation chronology narrative.

I think I understand it just fine.

Unfortunately. Because it’s crucial to our Christocentric Faith.

What does that have to do with the OP? We’re talking about the importance of works to salvation.