When or is the death penalty alright?

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Fact: Vatican City had the death penalty as a punishment until 1969.

Were the Popes wrong before 1969?

Are current Popes teaching infallibly about that issue…Answer NO!
The decision whether to support the death penalty is a matter of PRUDENTIAL JUDGEMENT, meaning it’s matter of opinion, after considering the current teaching in the Catechism (which JP 2 changed after E Vitae—leaving a door open to the use of it, in some cases in 2267)
priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm
(see paragraph 3)

What makes a Pope’s belief about capital punishment after 1980’s better than the Popes of 1, 980 years of history and teaching?

Answer—it’s his opinion and Catholics can disagree…and we do.
If the Christmas Day Nigerian pantie-bomber had actually blown up that plane over Detroit, but somehow had escaped…Id push the button on that murderer !! He needs to fry !

and the Vatican would have done the same thing before 1969 because murder was less tolerated by the Church than it is now.
 
Hey Carl…is that really your picture on the blog link you post on your info?
 
d97c said:
Fact: Vatican City had the death penalty as a punishment until 1969.

Were the Popes wrong before 1969?

Are current Popes teaching infallibly about that issue…Answer NO!
The decision whether to support the death penalty is a matter of PRUDENTIAL JUDGEMENT, meaning it’s matter of opinion, after considering the current teaching in the Catechism (which JP 2 changed after E Vitae—leaving a door open to the use of it, in some cases in 2267)
priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm
(see paragraph 3)

What makes a Pope’s belief about capital punishment after 1980’s better than the Popes of 1, 980 years of history and teaching?

Answer—it’s his opinion and Catholics can disagree…and we do.
If the Christmas Day Nigerian pantie-bomber had actually blown up that plane over Detroit, but somehow had escaped…Id push the button on that murderer !! He needs to fry !
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Your continued disregard for the intrinsic value for life sickens me.
 
Starting the year with illness?? Tsk…tsk…Carl, take an aspirin and call me in the morning.
and your physical feelings about an accurate discussion about the history of the death penalty is not germane to the issue. :}
You should get a flag for that last post. Wayyyyyy to personal. TMI–as they say.
 
d97c said:
Starting the year with illness?? Tsk…tsk…Carl, take an aspirin and call me in the morning.
and your physical feelings about an accurate discussion about the history of the death penalty is not germane to the issue. :}
You should get a flag for that last post. Wayyyyyy to personal. TMI–as they say.
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Stop being so glib about such a serious issue. You are demonstrating one of the chief problems with the death penalty. Life is no longer intrinsically sacred. It is only sacred for those you deem worthy of life.
 
Your continued disregard for the rights of and respect for murder victims and families is disappointing.

:highprayer:

we are praying for ya, with incense
 
d97c said:
Your continued disregard for the rights of and respect for murder victims and families is disappointing.

:highprayer:

we are praying for ya, with incense
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So how many times are you going to try to justify state-sanctioned murder, even though the Bishops oppose it?
 
You need to look up the definition of murder. You obviously are ignorant of the definition. Murder is a crime. Infliction of the death penalty is not a crime. …for starters. You know…you have your blog link on each of your posts, so you obviously want someone to see it. I looked at it. You know, Mr Betts, for a guy who has been a Catholic for 2 years (according to your “blog” and your posts,) you think you are one tough expert on the faith. You really need to wait a while before you put yourself out there as an 'expert" and criticise any Catholic. Keep studying though.
10-4??
 
d97c said:
If the Christmas Day Nigerian pantie-bomber had actually blown up that plane over Detroit, but somehow had escaped…Id push the button on that murderer !! He needs to fry !
Click to expand...
God said vengeance and retribution belonged to him. Supporting the death penalty is one thing but you go too far in your glee to “push the button”. It sounds like hate.
 
d97c said:
You need to look up the definition of murder. You obviously are ignorant of the definition. Murder is a crime. Infliction of the death penalty is not a crime. …for starters. You know…you have your blog link on each of your posts, so you obviously want someone to see it. I looked at it. You know, Mr Betts, for a guy who has been a Catholic for 2 years (according to your “blog” and your posts,) you think you are one tough expert on the faith. You really need to wait a while before you put yourself out there as an 'expert" and criticise any Catholic. Keep studying though.
10-4??
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I have learned a great deal and continue to learn more. Dismissing my arguments based on me personally, rather than the argument themselves, is pretty much the dictionary definition of an “ad hominem attack.” I believe is was St. Augustine who said that a thought should not be dismissed based on the thinker, which is what you have reduced yourself to. I can’t possibly be right because i wasn’t raised Catholic? You are pretty arrogant for one who has never met me. Do I consider myself an expert on the Catholic Faith? Not by a long shot. But I do know what the Church teaches on the death penalty. It is to administered only in the gravest of circumstances, and is not to be trteated flippantly, as you seem to do.
 
Wow, it’s hot in here. At my own risk, I think I’m gonna say that I agree with Mr. Betts and the Catechism. The death penalty should only be used in the gravest of circumstances and should not be treated flippantly.

What right have we erring mortals to send a soul to (possibly) hell?

Just my :twocents:
 
MarysGirls said:
Wow, it’s hot in here. At my own risk, I think I’m gonna say that I agree with Mr. Betts and the Catechism. The death penalty should only be used in the gravest of circumstances and should not be treated flippantly.

What right have we erring mortals to send a soul to (possibly) hell?

Just my :twocents:
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Thank you. In my state the death penalty is legal. Just recently, the state carried out its 33rd execution since its reinstitution in 1999. And the Bishops, as always pleaded with the state for clemency. Was the criminal a poster boy for humanity? No, but he was a human being with a soul in need of a savior. The state robbed him of any future chance at redemption. I cannot guarantee he would have ever seen the Truth of the Gospel, but I can say with certainty that he will not now. To say that he deserves death, that he deserves hell is arrogant and self-righteous. In God’s eyes, we all deserve death and hell. But he shows us mercy. If we are to become Christ-like, then we must also be willing to show mercy. At the same time, as Catholics, we must be willing to accept a martyr’s death. When Christ told us “not to fear he that can only destroy the body, but to fear him that can destroy both the body and the soul” was not an endorsement of capital punishment, but a warning of the tribulations that would come. There is no good justification for the death penalty.
 
Mr Betts, you are the guru of the ad hominem…but we all gotta take what we give right?

To Marys: Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I respect yours. But the Church has a history of support of the death penalty, for hundreds of years. I disagree with the present change , primarily initiated by J P 2. I have the right to disagree with it, a position which is not the same as a Catholic supporting abortion. A Catholic can in no way support abortion…now or never…Pope Benedict said the following:
“3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

He recognizes the “LEGITIMATE” diversity of opinion regarding the death penalty, and recognizes the impossibility of diversity among Catholics on the issue of abortion. So since I can agree, and can support the death penalty, and the Pope recognizes it, I WILL. If the death penalty is immoral per se, he would never have said that one can disagree, as a matter of “diversity.”

So…tell the Pope there is no good “justification for support of the death penalty”

priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm
 
d97c said:
Mr Betts, you are the guru of the ad hominem…but we all gotta take what we give right?

To Marys: Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I respect yours. But the Church has a history of support of the death penalty, for hundreds of years. I disagree with the present change , primarily initiated by J P 2. I have the right to disagree with it, a position which is not the same as a Catholic supporting abortion. A Catholic can in no way support abortion…now or never…Pope Benedict said the following:
“3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

He recognizes the “LEGITIMATE” diversity of opinion regarding the death penalty, and recognizes the impossibility of diversity among Catholics on the issue of abortion. So since I can agree, and can support the death penalty, and the Pope recognizes it, I WILL. If the death penalty is immoral per se, he would never have said that one can disagree, as a matter of “diversity.”

So…tell the Pope there is no good “justification for support of the death penalty”

priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm
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You keep pointing this out, that His Holiness allows for a diversity of opinion. However in your hypocrisy, you do not extend that courtesy to those who disagree with your utter disregard for life.
 
Your pompous diatribes show utter disregard for the murder victims and families. You sit up there in your ivory tower of your “grad school” and have no practical experience or empathy for “innocence.” You have no credibility. Dont be student of life…live it. If you want to continue to swap insults, get it on, but maybe the moderator ought to end this thread. There is nothing you say that is informative, and since you feel the same, whats the use. I wont let you state errors on a regular basis.
 
d97c said:
Your pompous diatribes show utter disregard for the murder victims and families. You sit up there in your ivory tower of your “grad school” and have no practical experience or empathy for “innocence.” You have no credibility. Dont be student of life…live it. If you want to continue to swap insults, get it on, but maybe the moderator ought to end this thread. There is nothing you say that is informative, and since you feel the same, whats the use. I wont let you state errors on a regular basis.
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I have stated no errors. You, on the other hand, have stated many. The most obvious being your utter disregard for life, exemplified by your glee at the prospect of executing persons created in the image and likeness of God. You ignore the fact that our system is flawed, and innocent people can be put to death. You misunderstand the teachings of Christ as endorsement of capital punishment, where no such teachings exist. You are content to allow the state to wield supreme power over live and death. Will you be just as supportive if being Catholic would be declared an act of treason, a capital crime? (It happened in England, and to this day a monarch in England cannot be Catholic) I, for one, do not necessarily trust the government in all cases. Do you not think that far ahead? I again repeat that the death penalty was allowed as a last resort because in the past there was no way to protect innocent citizens from sociopaths. These protections are now in place. Capital punishment is as anachronistic as Jim Crow.
 
You have been a Catholic for 2 years! You have no concept of church history or anything before 2007 !
Let me teach you something about the faith.
You have no sense of justice. Im sure you have heard of St Thomas Aquinas. Read what he said about the death penalty. His beliefs , as well as St Augustine and many many Popes who taught capital punishment was God’s will. Gods will.
Maybe you can learn that in graduate school.
The OX I think is smarter than C…W…Betts…of graduate school…2010 !!
read and learn…even for a baby Catholic, its the way to go !!
traditioninaction.org/religious/n012rp_DeathPenalty_Aquinas.htm
 
d97c said:
You have been a Catholic for 2 years! You have no concept of church history or anything before 2007 !
Let me teach you something about the faith.
You have no sense of justice. Im sure you have heard of St Thomas Aquinas. Read what he said about the death penalty. His beliefs , as well as St Augustine and many many Popes who taught capital punishment was God’s will. Gods will.
Maybe you can learn that in graduate school.
The OX I think is smarter than C…W…Betts…of graduate school…2010 !!
read and learn…even for a baby Catholic, its the way to go !!
traditioninaction.org/religious/n012rp_DeathPenalty_Aquinas.htm
Click to expand...
I have had enough of you insults. I know what the Catechism says, and I have no time for someone who has no concept of mercy. It is a fact that the Church discourages the use of the death penalty.
 
d97c said:
You have been a Catholic for 2 years! You have no concept of church history or anything before 2007 !
Let me teach you something about the faith.
You have no sense of justice. Im sure you have heard of St Thomas Aquinas. Read what he said about the death penalty. His beliefs , as well as St Augustine and many many Popes who taught capital punishment was God’s will. Gods will.
Maybe you can learn that in graduate school.
The OX I think is smarter than C…W…Betts…of graduate school…2010 !!
read and learn…even for a baby Catholic, its the way to go !!
traditioninaction.org/religious/n012rp_DeathPenalty_Aquinas.htm
Click to expand...
It seems to me that St. Thomas is saying that execution is justified only due to the danger caused by the criminal, and thereby being in support of 2267 of the Catechism, which you seem to have cut out of your copy. That is pretty much what I have been saying all along. I have had to give you a crash course on website evaluation. Do I now have to eduacte you about the importance of context?
 
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