When other churches say the creed and use the word "catholic" why don't they just say universal?

[SteveVH]

Why don’t catholics just say “right believing” when using the word Orthodox in context to their church?

Touche!

 

[KathleenGee]

On the far side here, a several old timer priests from World War II noticed younger priests not wearing their Roman collar but Protestant ministers began wearing them.

Confusing isn’t it.

 

[SteveVH]

Well, the word “catholic” isn’t copyrighted… Since the beginning, “catholic” has meant universal – and we’re a part of the universal Church.

New Age beliefs and Mormonism have nothing to do with Gnosticism, if you read the ancient Gnostic scriptures. The Gnostic Revival did start in the 19th century, there was a French movement and an English movement, both of which based their establishment on the Gnostic scriptures that were available at the time. My church comes from the English movement. Of course now there’s more information available on Gnosticism than there was a hundred years ago, since the discovery of the Nag Hammadi Library.

We have apostolic succession because our bishop was consecrated by other bishops, and can trace his succession all the way back St. Peter. His consecration may be considered illicit by certain churches, but that’s irrelevant.

There are actually several Gnostic churches nowadays, the Ecclesia Gnostic and Église Gnostique being the oldest here in the U.S. But there’s also the Apostolic Johannite Church, Alexandrian Gnostic Church, Ecclesia Gnostica Apostolica, Ecclesia Gnostica Mysteriorum, and a few others that were more recently established.

A validly ordained bishop who subsequently abandons the very Church from which he received his ordination no longer has the authority to ordain other bishops. He would have been excommunicated and therefore has lost his faculties.

In any event, it really doesn’t matter, When one uses the term “catholic” in general conversation I think everyone knows who is being spoken of.

 

[benjohnson]

Hey Ben.

Yes, you did use the term “a valid continuation”. But the question remains, how do you view the Catholic Church? Do you believe there are two “valid” continuations. How can both be valid?

I have a very positive view of the Catholic Church as a light to the world - if I see a wavering Catholic, I encourage them in their Catholic faith.

I would perhaps it would be well to separate ‘valid’ from ‘authentic’ - and consider them one at a time. Speaking only for myself - I say that Catholic church is 100% valid, and 99% authentic. Again, speaking for myself, I view my own church is 100% valid, and 99% authentic. For me, the importance is the validity of the preaching of the Gospel and the validity of the sacraments in that only in Christ will we come close to perfection.

I am uneasy with those who are not in communion with the Catholic Church trying to find a way claim catholicity. The term “catholic” has been associated with the “Catholic Church” for nearly 2000 years. It is interesting that others wish to claim it and disassociate the term “catholic” from the Catholic Church.

Sure! I completely understand! If I may say, we’re not using the word to confuse people, we’re using the word as it has meaning.

 

[JRKH]

Fair enough…I suspect too that in certain cases there is trouble in trying to come up with a really good and valid translation. the Greek root “catholic” might mean (as you mention below) something more or somewhat different than simply “universal” as we might understand “universal” today.

It gets really complicated doesn’t it - I think the creed you have is the Latin version of the 381 AD creed as modified by the Western chuch with the addition of the Filióque added. This is the “2nd” Nicene creed.

This creed was originally in Greek (the council was held in Constantinople) and the section of text with the work Catholic is:

Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν.

…

To answer your question: As I understand it the word Catholic is different that universal in that it incorporated the concept of being Christian as well. You can see this in the German for of the creed where they translated 'Καθολικὴv into the German word that means ‘Christian’.

(It’s also why our LCMS English version of the creed is messed up - it’s a translation yet again from the German into English)

Yea - I debated going with a Greek version or Latin…I chose the Latin version…

Peace
James

 

[SteveVH]

I have a very positive view of the Catholic Church as a light to the world - if I see a wavering Catholic, I encourage them in their Catholic faith.

I would perhaps it would be well to separate ‘valid’ from ‘authentic’ - and consider them one at a time. Speaking only for myself - I say that Catholic church is 100% valid, and 99% authentic. Again, speaking for myself, I view my own church is 100% valid, and 99% authentic. For me, the importance is the validity of the preaching of the Gospel and the validity of the sacraments in that only in Christ will we come close to perfection.

Sure! I completely understand! If I may say, we’re not using the word to confuse people, we’re using the word as it has meaning.

 

[rfournier103]

Like in the Lutheran Churches, why do they say One, Holy, catholic, and apostolic church. If catholic to them means universal, why not just say universal? I get that its a tradition, but you’d think that some denominations wouldn’t like saying catholic.

I remember at my girlfriend’s congregational church, they once said the Apostle’s Creed, and some old guy got up and was VERY disturbed by the use of the word “Catholic” in THAT creed. Try as they might, there’s no escaping the history of Christianity.

 

[Genesis315]

I think this quote of St. Augustine’s is apt:

And last, the very name Catholic [keeps me in the Church], which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called 'The Foundation’4.5)

 

[ConstantineTG]

Why don’t catholics just say “right believing” when using the word Orthodox in context to their church?

Sadly the Ruthenians actually did that. Whenever “orthodox Christians” are mentioned in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they just say “right beliving”. In the UGCC, they just made the “o” lowercase. Though I have seen older booklets that says “Catholic Christians”

 

[Julia_Mae]

Like in the Lutheran Churches, why do they say One, Holy, catholic, and apostolic church. If catholic to them means universal, why not just say universal? I get that its a tradition, but you’d think that some denominations wouldn’t like saying catholic.

Why don’t we? It’s not capitalized or anything.

 

[SteveVH]

I think this quote of St. Augustine’s is apt:

And last, the very name Catholic [keeps me in the Church], which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called 'The Foundation’4.5)

That about wraps it up.

 

[Cavaradossi]

In Churches which recite the creed in Slavonic, or languages descended therefrom, the term catholic is translated instead of transliterated from the original Greek, and this usage probably predates the schism. The same is true of the Armenian version of the creed as well, if I remember correctly.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

A validly ordained bishop who subsequently abandons the very Church from which he received his ordination no longer has the authority to ordain other bishops. He would have been excommunicated and therefore has lost his faculties.

In any event, it really doesn’t matter, When one uses the term “catholic” in general conversation I think everyone knows who is being spoken of.

So says your church, which has no authority to us.

 

[Julia_Mae]

The question asked in the OP then is why do we translate the entire Creed except for this word (or two)?

Peace
James

I don’t know about “baptism,” but I do know that “catholic” is an English word, so that is the closest translation.

This from an online dictionary mirrors print dictionaries:

cath·o·lic [kath-uh-lik, kath-lik]
adjective
1.
broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.
2.
universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.
3.
pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.
Origin:
1300–1350; Middle English < Latin catholicus < Greek katholikós general, equivalent to kathól ( ou ) universally (contraction of phrase katà hólou according to the whole; see cata-, holo-) + -ikos -ic

dictionary.reference.com/browse/catholic

The first meaning of the word in English doesn’t refer to the Church, it really just means “universal.” So catholic was in use in English prior to the translation of the Creed.

 

[SteveVH]

So says your church, which has no authority to us.

Not according to Scripture. But I understand, you are your own authority. The problem is that no matter how much one chooses to believe they can fly off a ten story building, the truth of gravity will win out every time.

 

[benjohnson]

(Against the Letter of Mani Called 'The Foundation’4.5)

This only thing I can find that St. Augustine wrote that sounds even close is “The Writings Against the Manichaeans and Against the Donatists”

It’s available here:

documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/1819-1893,_Schaff._Philip,_2_Vol_04_The_Anti-Manichaean_And_Anti-Donatist_Writings,_EN.pdf

I can’t seem to find that quote. Could you help me? Even a search for “stranger inquiries” doesn’t show up in the text I can find. I can find all sorts of reference to the quote on the internet, but none in any source document.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

Not according to Scripture. But I understand, you are your own authority. The problem is that no matter how much one chooses to believe they can fly off a ten story building, the truth of gravity will win out every time.

How does scripture give your church more authority than, say, the Eastern Orthodox Church? Or any other catholic church for that matter? You have to remember that the Bible is a creation of the Church, not the other way around.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t know about “baptism,” but I do know that “catholic” is an English word, so that is the closest translation.

Well - “catholic” is the English form of the Latin which is from the Greek. I mean I don’t think that “catholic” is a term that developed in “ancient” English tongues.

As for the term “baptism” I find this one quite interesting as gaining an understanding of the Greek terms “Baptizo” etc can give an interesting understanding of this right of initiation…as well as insight on the ideas of imputed and infused Justification…but that is a subject for another thread.

Peace
James

 

[gnosisofthomas]

I think this quote of St. Augustine’s is apt:

And last, the very name Catholic [keeps me in the Church], which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called 'The Foundation’4.5)

Manichaeanism (the religion founded by Mani) was actually a separate religion. Mani created a universal religion (similar to what Baha’u’llah did in the 19th century) that combined Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and Buddhism. Since the word “catholic” means “universal”, “catholic” would have been the Latin word used in talking about the universal religion of Mani. They didn’t call their relgion the Catholic Church, nor did they call their buildings catholic churches, so it’s easy to see that the “heretics” would know what someone was referring to when they asked where the Catholic Church meets.

 

[Chevalier_IX]

Personally, I think the use of the term Catholic is open to a lot of different interpretations - as many, if not more so than have been brought up here - and is subject to a lot of nuance as well.

I’m comfortable with non Roman Catholic Churches using the word catholic in their self description as I am by the Roman Catholic Church using it as a self-identifier. Even though some of these churches may have left or otherwise ‘reformed’ their beliefs, I think subtlely it may indicate that they themselves consider them part of the greater umbrella of Christianity and that even if corporate reunion is not possible, we can view them as Christians in good faith.

Cyril of Jerusalem, who is revered as a Doctor of the Church by Roman Catholics and as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Churches writes:

"It [the Church] is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it brings into subjection to godliness the whole race of mankind, governors and governed, learned and unlearned; and because it universally treats and heals the whole class of sins, which are committed by soul or body, and possesses in itself every form of virtue which is named, both in deeds and words, and in every kind of spiritual gifts."

Since this was written long before the Schism between the Western and Eastern Church, I rest my definition of catholic in relation to Christianity as a whole.

Ultimately, it may be more appropriate to use Chalcedonian to relate the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox within an historical context since both tend to view their own orthodoxy in different ways while similarly acknowledging other churches as non-Chalcedonian and/or Nestorian in theirs - but maybe I’m mincing semantics.