When Science contradicts Religion

[Robyn_p]

That’s a whole other kettle of fish, I don’t profess to be a biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination but as my Catholic husband attempted to explain to me death, disease and all of the ills that plague mankind are the consequences of sins committed or original from Adam.

Yes. For human beings. Not necessarily all of creation. We believe the first man was gifted with a lot of graces. (called preternatural gifts) When they sinned and lost grace, then nature would have taken over.

But obviously there was death before the fall, even the Genesis account taken literally points to that. You can’t eat a fruit without it dying.

One commentary I read made a good point about the fact that God tells Adam he would die if he ate the fruit, implying Adam had to at least have some concept of what death was. It makes no sense as a warning otherwise.

Unless Adam was a robot or not sentient, pain, depression and everything else on the negative scale would not have been unknown to him.

He certainly would have been aware of it. Not sure we can prove scientifically that he experienced it first-hand though. That’s beyond science’s capabilities.

 

[AprilFoolish]

That is incorrect. If it were true, we would see zero threads like this here.

Morning Ed, If what were true?

 

[petra22]

What denomination of protestant was it? I was Methodist for years, and I never heard of anything like that! Very strange!

Presbyterian

 

[Valiente88]

Specifically, Adam and Eve were the first couple with a rational soul. Science has never had access to the coming of a new specie. We don’t know how it happens, that some group, genetically different, that can reproduce their kind, suddenly spontaneously appears, Male and Female… The most we have seen is micro-evolution. Like dogs, all the different breeds. Still able to interbreed but with a diversity of expression.

How did species move from one to another. A lot of speculation. No answers.

If Adam and Eve were the first humans with a rational soul, that means they spawned admist a larger selection of proto-humanoids without a Human Soul.

To achive this wider genetic diversity, this means Adam and Eve had to have interbred with these other creatures. Isn’t breeding with a non human bestiality? Why is Gods creation plan reliant upon both adultery and zoophilia, two mortal sins?

It’s here that the single pair source theory falls to pieces again.

Death that is referred to, may be death of the spirit, for before there was sin, nothing was condemned to Hell (spiritual death). But with sin, came death. Physical death, that is no big deal. It is God’s way of moving us to live with Him forever.

This may be possible, but to my knowledge the Catholic Church has long held a literal interpretation of Death entering the world and a spiritual death is a (relatively) more recent development. A case of “the God of the Gaps” if you like.

I highlighted the case of physical death here but we can replace it with any one of the ills said or have been said to have been a result of the fall. Ilness, Aging, Pain; these have been said to be the consequence of sin where science has clearly defined that they are a requirement for the world to function. Without Illness or Aging there would be overpopulation (Darkmatter2525’s first critique of Genesis on youtube explains this far better than I do), and without a full emotional spectrum humans are not fully sentient.

Why are the results of sin a requirement for the world to function and human sentience?

I don’t see a problem here. Since the fall, man is subject to concupicence, disordered desire. One of them is homosexual desire. Similar to heterosexual desire outside marriage. We, being intellegent, can resist, but often fall into sin. In addition to Lust, we are also attracted to Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Pride, Wrath, and Envy. It’s natural, just as you wrote, we are fallen man.

I actually don’t think we are nods to religion box and I really don’t want to tackle the morality of the act itself since it’s not relevant here, the origin is. You state yourself that Homosexual impulses are a disordered desire when modern psychiatric medicine is certain that it is to be expected of a percentage the of the population of every species of mammal. It is so clearly embedded within development while it may be a recessive trait like red hair, it serves a purpose.

Many theories have been postulated as to why it occurs (I read one theory very recently that said because it occurs with such regularity, it is a way for providing a “carer” for the tribe/pack. When wolves who commit solely homosexual acts have been observed in the wild, they at the same time have more often than not been found to be caring for the offspring of the Alpha. Fascinating stuff, I’ll share the link when I’m at home on the PC).

Wait, science has proved something without evidence, without facts, without someone being there, see hearing or collecting information. Speculation is not proof. This ‘miticondrial eve’ may not be the Eve of the bible, but the eve of science. With whom did this science-adam mate? Humans? Apes? Biblical Eve? Who knows. We don’t have the birth records.

What kind of evidence would you like for this one? I cannot present you with a particle of gravity, but I’m sure you do not doubt it is a real, observable force.

Our grasp of how genetics “work” is solid enough now to say with a great deal of certainty that humanity cannot have all descended from a single pair. Yes, Mitochondrial Eve is probably not the biblical Eve (I’d be very surprised if she was), science does not claim this. What it does claim is there is a far wider source of todays genetic diversity, it could not have all descended from one couple. It is an genetic impossibility.

If Adam and Eve were white for instance, Oriental and Black people would not exist. It’s a gross oversimplification, but I hope you get what I’m trying to express.

 

[buffalo]

When science appears to contradict religion, there is either a bad theologian or a bad scientist. Faith and Reason cannot be opposed for they flow from the very same God.

IDvolution - Where Faith and Reason Intersect

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Can you provide examples of the Church denying obvious realities over the last 50 years?

They still believe exorcisms are effective treatments for disease. People have died because of it.

 

[buffalo]

I don’t want to post too many, less this thread get derailed and transformed into just another gay marriage/creationist thread so I’ll stick with the three I mentioned in my first post.

1. Catholics are bound to belive Adam and Eve were a literal first couple, Modern Genetics can and has traced Human DNA back to it’s origin and has stated with a great deal of certainty Humanity arose from a wider group over a longer period of time. This article’s first paragraphs explains with a highly oversimplified but concise summary as to why, even if the tone is rather condecending to belivers whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/adam-and-eve-the-ultimate-standoff-between-science-and-faith-and-a-contest/
2. Catholics are bound to believe Death is a consequence of Adams sin and did not exist prior to the fall, the development of mans capacity to ingest meat along with a heavy reliance upon it for nutrition suggests otherwise. Complicated milti cellular life forms also cannot exist without the process of pre programmed cell death (apoptosis) which again suggests death was not a consequence of the fall.
3. Regardless to an individuals views on the morality of homosexual acts, the Catholic Church teaches the desire to commit them are gravely disordered, a disorder again arising from sin which had humanity not fallen into would not exist. With exception to a few hedge psychologists who are ridiculed by the rest of the profession, modern mental health authorities are certain without any doubt that Homosexual impulses are in no way disordered, merely one of many potential traits such as not liking the taste of strawberries.

Catholics are bound to believe in the magesteriums literal interpretation of the existence of Adam and Even when science has proven this an impossibility and Catholics who do not consider homosexual impulses to be disordered are condemned as being in a state of mortal sin. There are just ones cropping up in the past ten years, never mind fifty.

Science has not proved this an impossibility.

When one really investigates DNA they find the assumptions behind this claim. The biggest is the amount of genetic diversity is assumed. Recently science has proclaimed Adam and Eve were contemporaries, they just didn’t know each other. What next? They lived in the same town at the same time?

 

[buffalo]

They still believe exorcisms are effective treatments for disease. People have died because of it.

Not exactly. Before any exorcism is performed disease must be ruled out.

Currently more exorcists are being trained.

 

[rom422]

As OP points out - there is massive reasoned scientifice evidence that there was no single first couple in human genetic lineage. We know that the mythology of Adam and Eve is made up… pretend.

There is “massive” reasoned scientific evidence that there was no single first couple in human genetic lineage? Where did you find that massive evidence? I have found massive literature of geneticists citing other geneticists, who then cite other geneticists, but none presenting massive evidence. I have found one or two who defended the idea, but they have also been contradicted by other knowledgeable geneticists. This means that the idea that we did not originate from a single pair of parents is NOT definitively proven.

The case OP is pointing out is, to me extremely strong.

Why is it strong? No evidence was presented. A link was provided, which merely cited others claiming the same, but no evidence. An argument based only on purely human authority is among the weakest of all arguments.

 

[Valiente88]

1. The Church tells us there is no proof this happened. Adam and Eve are our first parents, not a group, and certainly not a pair of “almost humans” that God randomly dropped souls into. Science cannot study the soul so this linkage has no scientific basis.

Science cannot define or describe non material concepts that cannot be objectively observed like a human soul that is true. What it can tell us with near certainty however is that humanity cannot all have a single couple at the top of the family tree for the entirety of the Human race.

The Catholic Church has infallibly taught that we are all descended from Adam and Eve; the Human Genome Project has showed us this cannot be correct. I as a white woman with a white spouse cannot give birth to a black baby, we are expected to presume one couples offspring are the source of all of humanities genetic diversity.

1. Adam and Eve had certain gifts given to them by God, which they lost when they disobeyed the one command God gave them. That is why every human being is born with Original Sin. What happened after the Fall was literal and spiritual. Otherwise, Jesus would not have had to have been born.

Why Jesus was born is a topic much of Christianity can’t even decide on, so it would be unwise for me to stick my two cents in on that matter. It’s also something Science has little concern with.

What it does concern itself with is the function and development of the material world and the human mind, neither could the world have sustained itself or human beings have been sentient without the fall, something that was said to be unintended by God.

Why is Gods master plan reliant on sin? It’s a whole other topic, If I am to go into the realm of the impossibility of a being to be both omnipotent and all good it’s best done on a separate thread.

1. The actual history of homosexual tendencies has been ignored. I suggest the following:

amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370

Peace,
Ed

I’ll have a read of this, thank you for the link. I have heard it said many times that homosexuality is a mental disease that has only been removed under political pressure but I personally do think this seems very unlikely and occurs with far too great a regularity and with the absence of a cause…

 

[Evan]

They still believe exorcisms are effective treatments for disease. People have died because of it.

Poor example. It says it was a misdiagnosis. Any misdiagnosis can result in death. I just read the conversion story of Jimmy Aiken. His wife died of a misdiagnosis (they eventually correctly identified the problem as cancer, but by then it was way too late.

On the other hand, when and exorcism is required but medical treatment is offered, there is no advantage to the patient. The church requests doctors to rule out disease prior to an exorcism. Exorcism is NOT an effective treatment for disease. It never was considered one.

 

[buffalo]

Adams burial spot - Chapel of Adam

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Prodigal_Son]

If Adam and Eve were the first humans with a rational soul, that means they spawned admist a larger selection of proto-humanoids without a Human Soul.

To achive this wider genetic diversity, this means Adam and Eve had to have interbred with these other creatures.

No, it doesn’t. They could have been monogamous. Has this idea never occurred to you?

Unless you are denying that one of them was human, which would be begging the question.

I actually don’t think we are nods to religion box and I really don’t want to tackle the morality of the act itself since it’s not relevant here, the origin is. You state yourself that Homosexual impulses are a disordered desire when modern psychiatric medicine is certain that it is to be expected of a percentage the of the population of every species of mammal. It is so clearly embedded within development while it may be a recessive trait like red hair, it serves a purpose.

Does autism serve a purpose? Does sickle-cell anemia?

Surely the traits that LEAD TO these conditions serve a purpose. Sure. But the conditions themselves don’t serve any purpose. We can treat people with autism or anemia with dignity without saying that their conditions are good for humanity.

If Adam and Eve were white for instance, Oriental and Black people would not exist. It’s a gross oversimplification, but I hope you get what I’m trying to express.

Huh? Species adapt in various places according to their environment. Dogs in one area of the globe have warmer fur than others; this doesn’t mean that they are a different species. If Africans spend the next 20,000 years living in Norway, they will stop being black. That doesn’t mean that they were never black.

 

[buffalo]

Science cannot define or describe non material concepts that cannot be objectively observed like a human soul that is true. What it can tell us with near certainty however is that humanity cannot all have a single couple at the top of the family tree for the entirety of the Human race.

The Catholic Church has infallibly taught that we are all descended from Adam and Eve; the Human Genome Project has showed us this cannot be correct. I as a white woman with a white spouse cannot give birth to a black baby, we are expected to presume one couples offspring are the source of all of humanities genetic diversity.

Why Jesus was born is a topic much of Christianity can’t even decide on, so it would be unwise for me to stick my two cents in on that matter. It’s also something Science has little concern with.

What it does concern itself with is the function and development of the material world and the human mind, neither could the world have sustained itself or human beings have been sentient without the fall, something that was said to be unintended by God.

Why is Gods master plan reliant on sin? It’s a whole other topic, If I am to go into the realm of the impossibility of a being to be both omnipotent and all good it’s best done on a separate thread.

I’ll have a read of this, thank you for the link. I have heard it said many times that homosexuality is a mental disease that has only been removed under political pressure but I personally do think this seems very unlikely and occurs with far too great a regularity and with the absence of a cause…

???

Genetic Adam and Eve did not live too far apart in time

											 						Studies re-date 'Y-chromosome Adam' and 'mitochondrial Eve'.

The Book of Genesis puts Adam and Eve together in the Garden of Eden, but geneticists’ version of the duo — the ancestors to whom the Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA of today’s humans can be traced — were thought to have lived tens of thousands of years apart. Now, two major studies of modern humans’ Y chromosomes suggest that ‘Y-chromosome Adam’ and ‘mitochondrial Eve’ may have lived around the same time after all1, 2.

and

Look at the molecular clock links here

 

[Evan]

If Adam and Eve were the first humans with a rational soul, that means they spawned admist a larger selection of proto-humanoids without a Human Soul.

Some people mate for life. Just with the person they are married too. No spawning with other people (I think spawn is used with fish, not mammals). If they were the first humans, with such things as language and free will, their descendents probably remained within the children of adam and eve for their spouses.

Does evolution have a theory where a new species, that cannot interbreed with other species comes from? Would it not have to be an initial breeding pair?

This may be possible, but to my knowledge the Catholic Church has long held a literal interpretation of Death entering the world and a spiritual death is a (relatively) more recent development. A case of “the God of the Gaps” if you like.

I highlighted the case of physical death here but we can replace it with any one of the ills said or have been said to have been a result of the fall. Ilness, Aging, Pain; these have been said to be the consequence of sin where science has clearly defined that they are a requirement for the world to function. Without Illness or Aging there would be overpopulation (Darkmatter2525’s first critique of Genesis on youtube explains this far better than I do), and without a full emotional spectrum humans are not fully sentient.

Why are the results of sin a requirement for the world to function and human sentience?

What gap is God being put into here? Until there is a rational soul, no spiritual death can occur. More recent that AD 32? It was Jesus whom I was quoting.

I don’t see a problem with overpopulation when Adam and Eve had ZERO children. Again, they had preternatural gifts. Freedom from Illness, pain, aging. These were lost.

Why do you need humans to be in a fallen state to be human?

Why would you need to suffer pain, to be emotionally connected to the animals. People love their dogs, yet few if any have ever been a dog!!!

What kind of evidence would you like for this one? I cannot present you with a particle of gravity, but I’m sure you do not doubt it is a real, observable force.

Gravity may not be a force. If we assume for the present that Relativity is an accurate theory, then mass bends the fabric of the universe and matter flows in geodesics unless there is a force applied to oppose this natural direction of movement. The force that is exerted is to stop me from moving along a geodesic.

Our grasp of how genetics “work” is solid enough now to say with a great deal of certainty that humanity cannot have all descended from a single pair. Yes, Mitochondrial Eve is probably not the biblical Eve (I’d be very surprised if she was), science does not claim this. What it does claim is there is a far wider source of todays genetic diversity, it could not have all descended from one couple. It is an genetic impossibility.

At the beginning of his paragraph, you had some certainty that there may have been more than 2 in the original human specie. By the end it was a certainty. When you have a sample of one and there is some uncertainty, especially after the fact, then it may have not happened, or it may be the one that provides a low probability.

If Adam and Eve were white for instance, Oriental and Black people would not exist. It’s a gross oversimplification, but I hope you get what I’m trying to express.

And of course, if they were mixed race (like I am) they could produce children that are black, oriental, white, etc. Did you know that evolution postulates the possibility of small mutations that can change even the color of a persons skin?

 

[sw85]

If Adam and Eve were the first humans with a rational soul, that means they spawned admist a larger selection of proto-humanoids without a Human Soul.

To achive this wider genetic diversity, this means Adam and Eve had to have interbred with these other creatures. Isn’t breeding with a non human bestiality? Why is Gods creation plan reliant upon both adultery and zoophilia, two mortal sins?

They would not be non-humans. They would be identical to humans in every respect except rationality.

This may be possible, but to my knowledge the Catholic Church has long held a literal interpretation of Death entering the world and a spiritual death is a (relatively) more recent development. A case of “the God of the Gaps” if you like.

I highlighted the case of physical death here but we can replace it with any one of the ills said or have been said to have been a result of the fall. Ilness, Aging, Pain; these have been said to be the consequence of sin where science has clearly defined that they are a requirement for the world to function. Without Illness or Aging there would be overpopulation (Darkmatter2525’s first critique of Genesis on youtube explains this far better than I do), and without a full emotional spectrum humans are not fully sentient.

Why are the results of sin a requirement for the world to function and human sentience?

Here again, the key is that immortality is a preternatural grace, i.e., a gift given directly by God which is beyond the grasp of unaided human nature. It is not the case that man was naturally unable to die and that death was invented for him after the fall. It is rather the case that man’s animal nature was inclined to death, but that his quickening with divine grace exempted him from the patterns of the animal world; and that his rejection of this grace through original sin entailed his “fall” back to an essentially natural state unaided by divine assistance.

It does no good to point to what science says here. Science describes nature as we see it, but the condition of prelapsarian man is obviously not nature-as-we-see-it, by definition. And it is not so hard to imagine that God, who made man from the dust of the earth, could likewise alter things in such a way as to make it possible for him not to die.

You state yourself that Homosexual impulses are a disordered desire when modern psychiatric medicine is certain that it is to be expected of a percentage the of the population of every species of mammal.

Diabetes, heart disease, myopia, etc., all also occur at a fairly predictable rate, that does not cease to make them disordered. Because “disordered” does not mean “not occurring in nature,” it means “contrary to the proper ordering of things.” And the proper ordering of things is that the reproductive system is ordered toward reproduction (that’s why it’s called the reproductive system), and whatever traits make it difficult or impossible to use that system according to its natural end is, by definition, disordered.

Many theories have been postulated as to why it occurs (I read one theory very recently that said because it occurs with such regularity, it is a way for providing a “carer” for the tribe/pack. When wolves who commit solely homosexual acts have been observed in the wild, they at the same time have more often than not been found to be caring for the offspring of the Alpha. Fascinating stuff, I’ll share the link when I’m at home on the PC).

Evolution is about survival of the fittest, not survival of the species – so if this “theory” (presumably you mean “hypothesis”) is true I take it for granted a major readjustment of evolutionary theory is forthcoming from the nebulous “science” which presumes to dictate the content of moral law to us.

Our grasp of how genetics “work” is solid enough now to say with a great deal of certainty that humanity cannot have all descended from a single pair. Yes, Mitochondrial Eve is probably not the biblical Eve (I’d be very surprised if she was), science does not claim this. What it does claim is there is a far wider source of todays genetic diversity, it could not have all descended from one couple. It is an genetic impossibility.

Biologically I agree – it is not necessary that man descended biologically from a single pair. Nor are we obliged to believe such. We are obliged to believe that man as he is today, as a rational, willing, free, self-aware person, and not merely a physical/animal being, is so descended. And such a question is not one that can be resolved by genetic histories because the possession of rational soul is not a genetic trait.

 

[Valiente88]

Poor example. It says it was a misdiagnosis. Any misdiagnosis can result in death. I just read the conversion story of Jimmy Aiken. His wife died of a misdiagnosis (they eventually correctly identified the problem as cancer, but by then it was way too late.

On the other hand, when and exorcism is required but medical treatment is offered, there is no advantage to the patient. The church requests doctors to rule out disease prior to an exorcism. Exorcism is NOT an effective treatment for disease. It never was considered one.

Hey, the guy asked for an example and he gave him one.

I wasn’t going to admit to this because I’d hate to have it tinge any future discussions I have on here…I’m a practicing psychiatrist, and I have been called in on patients who’s relatives claim have been suffering from demonic possession. I can tell you something, not one of them was, and the attempts at “exorcism” nine times out of ten made the problem worse by stressing the subject of it.

Epilepsy, Panic attacks and Schizophrenia are the most usual causes. There is a reason why the Vatican ordains very few exorcists these days and the few that remain operate almost exclusively in Africa; most westerners are educated enough to know it doesn’t happen.

 

[Valiente88]

Adams burial spot - Chapel of Adam

Just like how the Muslims claim Adam is buried under the Ka’ba?

If that is where Adam is buried then let’s exhume the grave and settle the matter once and for all.

Why haven’t we again? We can’t be squeamish about putting bodies on display can we whatwith all the reliquaries and incorruptibles.

 

[Valiente88]

No, it doesn’t. They could have been monogamous. Has this idea never occurred to you?

Very well, if they were that means Cain and Seth either mated with one of these other creatures (to be human, one must have a human soul) or (God forbid) their own mother or any sisters to follow.

Again, why is creation reliant on sin?

Does autism serve a purpose? Does sickle-cell anemia?

Surely the traits that LEAD TO these conditions serve a purpose. Sure. But the conditions themselves don’t serve any purpose. We can treat people with autism or anemia with dignity without saying that their conditions are good for humanity.

You picked two very bad examples for your argument. Sickle Cell anemia is most prevalent in Africans who also live in the areas most infested with malaria. Are you aware those who posess sickle cell are immune to malaria?

Likewise, many autistic also display the traits of a “Savant”; they are socially awkward and yet excel in other fields, notably the sciences. Many of the worlds leading mathematicians, Physicists and computer developers have been autistic.

Huh? Species adapt in various places according to their environment. Dogs in one area of the globe have warmer fur than others; this doesn’t mean that they are a different species. If Africans spend the next 20,000 years living in Norway, they will stop being black. That doesn’t mean that they were never black.

Oh they’ll become paler certainly, but certainly not in the short timeframe that even a very loose allegorical interpretation of Genesis requires.

 

[Valiente88]

???

Genetic Adam and Eve did not live too far apart in time

											 						Studies re-date 'Y-chromosome Adam' and 'mitochondrial Eve'.

The Book of Genesis puts Adam and Eve together in the Garden of Eden, but geneticists’ version of the duo — the ancestors to whom the Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA of today’s humans can be traced — were thought to have lived tens of thousands of years apart. Now, two major studies of modern humans’ Y chromosomes suggest that ‘Y-chromosome Adam’ and ‘mitochondrial Eve’ may have lived around the same time after all1, 2.

and

Look at the molecular clock links here

As interesting as the first of those articles was (I haven’t read the others yet) it still concedes to my point, all of humanity cannot have a single couple as a common ancestor.

Because of the random nature of genealogy…two different genetic lineages are unlikely to have common ancestors who lived in the same population at the same time.